Permissible view on Heaven and hell?

[Reclusius]

I have a theory about the last things and i wonder if it is a permissible view for a catholic to hold. Or that maybe others hold that view?

It’s like this. The state of heaven, purgatory or hell is how you experience God’s love. If you are in state of heaven, you experience God’s love as joyfull. If you ar in purgatorial state, you experience God’s love as a cleansing of the soul wich can painful but altogether healing.

But if you are in the eternal state of hell, God’s love feels like the painfull fire of hell.

 

[Jesus_123]

+Hell is rather the** “absence”** of our Loving God and all that is good and loving . . . His Blessed Holy Presence with us . . . and all the sweet blessings of **His Goodness **He constantly showers upon mankind and all the earth . . . below is a quote from St. Faustina’s Diary from another thread . . . thought it might be helpful here . . .

****. . . :coffeeread: . . . ****

Sister Faustina’s Vision of Hell

“I, Sister Faustina Kowalska, by the order of God, have visited the Abysses of Hell so that I might tell souls about it and testify to its existence…the devils were full of hatred for me, but they had to obey me at the command of God, What I have written is but a pale shadow of the things I saw. But I noticed one thing: That most of the souls there are those who disbelieved that there is a hell.” (Diary 741)

- The Apostle of Divine Mercy
St. Maria Faustina Kowalska
of the
Congregation of the Sisters of Our Lady of Mercy​

"Today, I was led by an angel :angel1: to the Chasms of Hell. It is a place of great torture; how awesomely large and extensive it is! The kinds of tortures I saw:

The First Torture that constitutes hell is:

The loss of God.The Second is:
Perpetual remorse of conscience.
The Third is:
That one’s condition will never change.
The Fourth is:
The fire that will penetrate the soul without destroying it. A terrible suffering since it is a purely spiritual fire, lit by God’s anger.
The Fifth Torture is:
Continual darkness and a terrible suffocating smell, and despite the darkness, the devils and the souls of the damned see each other and all the evil, both of others and their own.
The Sixth Torture is:
The constant company of Satan.The Seventh Torture is:
Horrible despair, hatred of God, vile words, curses and blasphemies.​

These are the Tortures suffered by all the damned together, but that is not the end of the sufferings.
**

Indescribable Sufferings**

There are special Tortures destined for particular souls. These are the torments of the senses. Each soul undergoes terrible and indescribable sufferings related to the manner in which it has sinned.

I would have died

There are caverns and pits of torture where one form of agony differs from another. I would have died at the very sight of these tortures if the omnipotence of God had not supported me.

No One Can Say There is No Hell

Let the sinner know that he will be tortured throughout all eternity, in those senses which he made use of to sin. I am writing this at the command of God, so that no soul may find an excuse by saying there is no hell, or that nobody has ever been there, and so no one can say what it is like…how terribly souls suffer there! Consequently, I pray even more fervently for the conversion of sinners. I incessantly plead **God’s **mercy upon them. O My Jesus, I would rather be in agony until the end of the world, amidst the greatest sufferings, than offend you by the least sin." (Diary 741)
​

​

. . . all for Jesus+
. . . Sacred Heart of Jesus+
. . . have mercy+
​

 

[silicasandra]

I have a theory about the last things and i wonder if it is a permissible view for a catholic to hold. Or that maybe others hold that view?

It’s like this. The state of heaven, purgatory or hell is how you experience God’s love. If you are in state of heaven, you experience God’s love as joyfull. If you ar in purgatorial state, you experience God’s love as a cleansing of the soul wich can painful but altogether healing.

But if you are in the eternal state of hell, God’s love feels like the painfull fire of hell.

I have heard this explanation before and it makes sense to me. If you knowingly reject God’s love, of course his love will be painful to you - you didn’t want it.

But he will never stop loving you.

 

[Seven_Spirits]

Try reading this: osv.com/TCANav/TCAQuestionoftheDay/Feb15192010/tabid/7954/Default.aspx

 

[A_Catholic]

I have a theory about the last things and i wonder if it is a permissible view for a catholic to hold. Or that maybe others hold that view?

It’s like this. The state of heaven, purgatory or hell is how you experience God’s love. If you are in state of heaven, you experience God’s love as joyfull. If you ar in purgatorial state, you experience God’s love as a cleansing of the soul wich can painful but altogether healing.

But if you are in the eternal state of hell, God’s love feels like the painfull fire of hell.

Hell, like heaven and purgatory, is the mercy of God. Those who go to hell go there because they have rejected God, and the most merciful thing God can do for them is to banish them from his presence, which they would find more painful than the tortures of hell. People are condemned because they have rejected obedience to God. Remember, Satan is the first to say “non serviam” - I will not serve.

By saying that we are in heaven, hell or purgatory because of how we experience God’s love says that it has nothing to do with the decisions we have made in our lives in whether we will serve God or not. The reason we would experience God’s love as oppressive and cruel is because we have first rejected him, not the other way around.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

I have a theory about the last things and i wonder if it is a permissible view for a catholic to hold. Or that maybe others hold that view?

It’s like this. The state of heaven, purgatory or hell is how you experience God’s love. If you are in state of heaven, you experience God’s love as joyfull. If you ar in purgatorial state, you experience God’s love as a cleansing of the soul wich can painful but altogether healing.

But if you are in the eternal state of hell, God’s love feels like the painfull fire of hell.

C.S. Lewis, despite other flaws on the subject of eternal life, had some interesting ideas about hell. One I recall, in The Screwtape Letters (I read this a decade ago so my memory is very fuzzy) described the demons (and presumably, therefore, the souls of the damned) being perpetually conscious of the presence of God but being repulsed by it, and tormented by the fact they could not escape it. Another idea, presented in The Great Divorce, described the damned and those in purgatory initially being mixed together and indistinguishable from one another at least under casual observation from the outside, and all of them were welcomed to enter heaven, but the damned chose to reject that invitation while the saved accepted it.

Both of these ideas could connect with what you are saying, but I would keep in mind the necessary distinctions. For example, only those in heaven are actually given the Beatific Vision. Any sense of the presence or love of God experienced by those in purgatory and especially those in hell would not be the Beatific Vision but something less, and the primary torment of both states would be the absence of the Beatific Vision, either a temporary absence for something they long for in the case of purgatory, or a permanent absence of something they “need” in a sense yet hate and reject in the case of hell.

 

[Iron_Donkey]

By saying that we are in heaven, hell or purgatory because of how we experience God’s love says that it has nothing to do with the decisions we have made in our lives in whether we will serve God or not.

I’m not sure this is the case. In this model of Hell, our actions shape who we are, and who we are determines how we experience God’s love.

The standard Catholic response is that Hell is separation from God. But God is omnipresent, and He loves even those in Hell. The separation is entirely our fault - we go to Hell voluntarily, in a sense - and the pain is our knowledge of what it is we do not have.

So the difference between the two formulations seems to be “We feel God’s love and it is painful” or “we can see what God’s love would be and don’t have it and that is painful.” I’m not sure these are actually that different. You could say that seeing the potential for God’s love but denying oneself access to it is in fact feeling God’s love in a painful way.

 

[Ahimsa]

I have a theory about the last things and i wonder if it is a permissible view for a catholic to hold. Or that maybe others hold that view?

It’s like this. The state of heaven, purgatory or hell is how you experience God’s love. If you are in state of heaven, you experience God’s love as joyfull. If you ar in purgatorial state, you experience God’s love as a cleansing of the soul wich can painful but altogether healing.

But if you are in the eternal state of hell, God’s love feels like the painfull fire of hell.

This is a common view among Eastern Orthodox, and perhaps among Eastern Catholics, as well.

 

[A_Catholic]

I’m not sure this is the case. In this model of Hell, our actions shape who we are, and who we are determines how we experience God’s love.

This is EXACTLY what I am saying.

The standard Catholic response is that Hell is separation from God. But God is omnipresent, and He loves even those in Hell. The separation is entirely our fault - we go to Hell voluntarily, in a sense - and the pain is our knowledge of what it is we do not have.

 

[Iron_Donkey]

God is not in hell. That is what makes it hell - the absence of God. Matthew 7:23 is Christ talking of the end of evildoers, and he says: “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.” If we are departing from Christ, that means we are no longer with him. Hell is the total and complete absence of God.

 

[thistle]

I’m not sure this is the case. In this model of Hell, our actions shape who we are, and who we are determines how we experience God’s love.

The standard Catholic response is that Hell is separation from God. But God is omnipresent, and He loves even those in Hell. The separation is entirely our fault - we go to Hell voluntarily, in a sense - and the pain is our knowledge of what it is we do not have.

So the difference between the two formulations seems to be “We feel God’s love and it is painful” or “we can see what God’s love would be and don’t have it and that is painful.” I’m not sure these are actually that different. You could say that seeing the potential for God’s love but denying oneself access to it is in fact feeling God’s love in a painful way.

What do you mean “The standard Catholic response is that Hell is separation from God”. You make it sound like its just something we say.
It is the formal Church teaching. Check the CCC.

 

[Iron_Donkey]

What do you mean “The standard Catholic response is that Hell is separation from God”. You make it sound like its just something we say.
It is the formal Church teaching. Check the CCC.

That is in fact what I meant. I tend to understate things. I know this is true. What I don’t know is if it clashes with the other view. At first glance it seems so, but I’m not sure it does if we go into what exactly separation means, etc.

 

[Ahimsa]

That is in fact what I meant. I tend to understate things. I know this is true. What I don’t know is if it clashes with the other view. At first glance it seems so, but I’m not sure it does if we go into what exactly separation means, etc.

I think Thomas Aquinas wrote that even hell is upheld by God’s presence, so the idea of hell as being separation from God, though true on one level, is not ultimately true.

 

[Jesus_123]

:bible1:
"You shall seek me,
and shall find me:
when you shall seek me
with all your **heart
*.
And I will be found by you, saith the **
Lord"
*** - Jeremiah 29:13,14a

+Meager intellectual knowledge alone on the part of fallen man simply is not enough . . . responsive mankind’s loving **heart ** to God’s Loving Heart through the Holy Gift of God of Faith is the key . . .

+**
. . . :coffeeread: . . .**
THE CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH****ARTICLE 12
"I BELIEVE IN LIFE EVERLASTING"

IV. Hell

1033 **
We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not* love ***remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."612 Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.613 To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive **self-exclusion from communion **with **God **and the blessed is called “hell.”

**1034 **
Jesus often speaks of “Gehenna,” of “the unquenchable fire” reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.614 **Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels :angel1:, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,"615 and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"616

**1035 **
The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal SEPARATION from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

**1036 **
The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: ***“Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.”***618

Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where "men will weep and gnash their teeth."619

**1037 **
God predestines no one to go to hell;620 for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want "any to perish, but all to come to repentance":621

Father, accept this offering
from your whole family.
Grant us** your **peace in this life,
save us from final damnation,
and count us among those you have chosen.
+

FATIMA PRAYER
O my Jesus . . . forgive us our sins . . . save us from the fires of hell . . .lead all souls to Heaven . . . especially those most in need of **Thy **mercy . . . Amen."​

. . . all for Jesus+
*. . . thank You Sweet Lord+
. . . thank you Blessed Virgin Mary our Mother+
*​