Permission of bishop needed for Masses with people?

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angelic_feline

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Summorum Pontificum tells that no permission of the bishop is needed for the extraordinary Masses without the people. Here is my question. Then how about the Masses with the people? Does the priest need to be given a permission from his bishop when he was asked to celebrate one of his Sunday Masses in extraordinary form?
 
angelic_feline said:
Summorum Pontificum tells that no permission of the bishop is needed for the extraordinary Masses without the people. Here is my question. Then how about the Masses with the people? Does the priest need to be given a permission from his bishop when he was asked to celebrate one of his Sunday Masses in extraordinary form?
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The bishop’s permission is not needed. However, a “stable group” of parishioners can request for an EF and if the priest is willing and able he can have an EF Mass.
I do not think the priest can have an EF Mass if nobody in the parish or at least if a stable group does not request it. He cannot impose it on the people.
On the other hand if a “stable group” requests an EF and the priest is able but not willing then the group can take this up with the bishop who can overrule the priest and if the bishop is also not willing then the group can take it up with Rome.

The two main problems I see are a) “stable group” is not defined in terms of number or percentage of parishioners and b) it is highly likely that the priest does not know Latin and so is not in a position to have an EF anyway.
 
angelic_feline said:
Summorum Pontificum tells that no permission of the bishop is needed for the extraordinary Masses without the people. Here is my question. Then how about the Masses with the people? Does the priest need to be given a permission from his bishop when he was asked to celebrate one of his Sunday Masses in extraordinary form?
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Any priest needs the permission of the local ordinary to administer any sacrament. For hearing confessions or witnessing marriages this is required for the validity, for masses for the licitness. Priests who have this permission do not need additional permission for the TLM.

The original legal point was that private Mass do not require indult (like before 2007) and the faithful can attend private masses. As far as I know this was later extended, priest can celebrate TLM in scheduled time without permission of the bishop; but not against his will. (The rationale is that a priest can say only a limited number of masses on a given day, and if the bishop decides that those Masses are to be said according to the new form for the regular crowd, then the priest had to celebrated the new form).

Similar case happened in our Church. The pastor decided to say all masses facing the tabernacle. Someone organized petitions that they need people facing Mass. The compromise is that in every Saturday evening a portable free standing altar is carried to the sanctuary and the priest celebrates the Mass facing a large cross and behind that the people. The difference is minimal, except that this is the only low mass without chant in the weekend. It is a unique experience too, that not the new form is the reason that the some masses are not reverent.
 
thistle said:
The two main problems I see are a) “stable group” is not defined in terms of number or percentage of parishioners and b) it is highly likely that the priest does not know Latin and so is not in a position to have an EF anyway.
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I think you’re right, stable group definitely isn’t defined, but on other sites I’ve looked at (like Fr. Z) more traditional-minded people interpret a “stable” group being as small as three others see that provision as a way to hinder the celebration of the TLM. Perhaps the new instructions, when they are released, will clear up the stable group thing. I think that documents like SP aren’t designed for or supposed to get involved in the nitty gritty of daily administration or putting numbers to things. They seem to me to be more broad-picture things.

The Latin provision is certainly a tough one too. Many priests know only a smattering of Latin and that was from their seminary days, if they got any training at all. It would take years of training for many priests to get to the point where they would understand, comprehend and pronounce Latin impeccably. If we interpret SP as liberally as possible then perhaps the requirement to know Latin could be seen to mean that the priest must have a reasonable pronunciation and know what’s going on. For the time being that would be enough to get TLMs off the ground and working without having to turn every priest into a Latin scholar.

I would think that with some hard work, decent resources and perhaps a good tutor a priest could be able to read aloud and pronounce Latin fairly well. I think back to my high school French days, once you got the basic rules of pronunciation down you say it pretty well, doesn’t mean you understood it. Of course accents got better and the fluency picked up as you went on, but initially at first it was important to get the mechanics of pronunciation down.

ChadS
 
While the SP provides for mass to be said without the bishop’s permission, there are requirements involved before a priest can “at his own will” celebrate a TLM.
  • He cannot override the obligation to celebrate first the Ordinary Form for his parishioners, as mandated by the S.P. This cannot be set aside by any personal spur of the moment decison to have a TLM.
  • Second, these liturgies must be scheduled and posted in the bulletin in advance. If Father wakes up some morning and decides in preference to what has been previously scheduled, that he is going to do a TLM that day, it is not permitted.
  • One mass can be celebrated per day, but three on a weekend may be celebrated with permission of the Bishop to satisfy the needs of his parish, and also the needs of partner parishes to which many of our priests serve double duty.
Few are aware that there are parishes that have no priest - they rely on the extra duty provided by priests who must serve two or more parishes. That being the case, there is no chance of providing an EF liturgy above and beyond the OF which is mandatory.

We should thank God that most are able to attend mass and receive the Eucharist regularly. It is pure gift!
 

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Thank you all for answering my question.
So I understand that the scheduled Masses can also be celebrated in TLM without the additional permission from local ordinary.
Your comments are so helpful and informative.
 
angelic_feline said:
Summorum Pontificum tells that no permission of the bishop is needed for the extraordinary Masses without the people. Here is my question. Then how about the Masses with the people? Does the priest need to be given a permission from his bishop when he was asked to celebrate one of his Sunday Masses in extraordinary form?
Click to expand...
It is my understanding that there is a forthcoming clarification of the Summorum Pontificum in its limitations, availability, and requirements. So stay tuned.
 
angelic_feline said:
Summorum Pontificum tells that no permission of the bishop is needed for the extraordinary Masses without the people. Here is my question. Then how about the Masses with the people? Does the priest need to be given a permission from his bishop when he was asked to celebrate one of his Sunday Masses in extraordinary form?
Click to expand...
Yes. The Liturgy in any given Church (every diocese is one particular Church) is under the control of the Bishop. It is his ministry. A priest cannot have any public Mass, OF or EF of any language, without the Bishop’s approval.
 
angelic_feline said:
Thank you all for answering my question.
So I understand that the scheduled Masses can also be celebrated in TLM without the additional permission from local ordinary.
Your comments are so helpful and informative.
Click to expand...
I doubt that he can change an already scheduled Mass into something else. Even if it were the OF and then use a different language (say from English to Spanish), it still would need approval from the Bishop.
 
ConstantineTG said:
Yes. The Liturgy in any given Church (every diocese is one particular Church) is under the control of the Bishop. It is his ministry. A priest cannot have any public Mass, OF or EF of any language, without the Bishop’s approval.
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Summorum Pontificum

Art. 5. § 1 In parishes, where there is a stable group of faithful who adhere to the earlier liturgical tradition, the pastor should willingly accept their requests to celebrate the Mass according to the rite of the Roman Missal published in 1962, and ensure that the welfare of these faithful harmonises with the ordinary pastoral care of the parish, under the guidance of the bishop in accordance with canon 392, avoiding discord and favouring the unity of the whole Church.
 
ConstantineTG said:
I doubt that he can change an already scheduled Mass into something else. Even if it were the OF and then use a different language (say from English to Spanish), it still would need approval from the Bishop.
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i believe the only exception to this is that a priest, of his own free will and without the permission of his bishop, may celebrate the OF in Latin at his own will
 
Montalo said:
i believe the only exception to this is that a priest, of his own free will and without the permission of his bishop, may celebrate the OF in Latin at his own will
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I’m suspecting that even that has to be run by with the Bishop’s office. I could be wrong. But the Liturgy is the Bishop’s ministry to his diocese. The priests are his helpers in this ministry and therefore nothing happens or changes without his knowing and approval. It may not be a complicated process, all it may take is a phone call.

I know my last RC pastor, some of the ladies want to say Sacred Heart novenas before or after the First Friday Mass. The priest said to give him a copy of the prayers and he’ll run it by the Bishop. This isn’t even the Mass, but something that is done inside a parish and done publicly.
 
thistle said:
Summorum Pontificum

Art. 5. § 1 In parishes, where there is a stable group of faithful who adhere to the earlier liturgical tradition, the pastor should willingly accept their requests to celebrate the Mass according to the rite of the Roman Missal published in 1962, and ensure that the welfare of these faithful harmonises with the ordinary pastoral care of the parish, under the guidance of the bishop in accordance with canon 392, avoiding discord and favouring the unity of the whole Church.
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Remember that SP isn’t mean to usurp the Bishop’s authority on regulating Liturgy in his diocese. Also note that Canon 392 says the Bishop’s task is to preserve unity within his diocese. So if the Bishop suspects that these people asking for the TLM may view the OF as invalid, he may deny their request.
 
Montalo said:
i believe the only exception to this is that a priest, of his own free will and without the permission of his bishop, may celebrate the OF in Latin at his own will
Click to expand...
This is my understanding too, although prudence dictates that this be announced ahead of time. However, the normal way of introducing Latin into the liturgy is doing parts such as the Sanctus or Agnus Dei, sung by the choir perhaps. The priest would have to use his judgement on this.
 
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