Permitted use of the Sanctuary by non-Catholics holding Sunday Services in Catholic Churches

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Love_Divine

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My church was sold a couple years ago to a Evangelical Mennonite Fellowship congregation, but they haven’t paid for it fully yet, nor do they get possession until the end of this year. However, now it’s being shared as two separate churches in the name ecumenism :rolleyes:. It’s still a Catholic Church, but they have their own “Church Name” for the building and hold their services/events in the Church.

Curious about what kind of a Christian group they were, I sought out their web site and found some pictures of their use of the Church and was horrified and sickened by what I saw.

In one picture, the Baptismal font was being used as a table for some person’s guitar case, while there were people up in the Sanctuary (they’re referring to is as the “stage” on their site) with their guitars, drums, and singers, while another guy was walking down the steps with a cup of coffee. In another picture, outside of a Sunday service (the Sanctuary was prepped for the Saturday Vigil Mass.) there were some guys standing up in the Sanctuary visiting, and one of them was holding a cup of coffee.

My understanding is the Sanctuary is a very holy place, and is to be treated as such. I know non-Catholic Christian groups may be permitted to use the Church for their services with special permission from the Bishop, but does anyone know what kind of use of the Sanctuary by them is permitted? I myself have attended that church for over 20 years, and have only been up in the Sanctuary once during my First Communion. We don’t just permit people going into the Sanctuary. This just seems wrong to allow such use of the Sanctuary.
 
You are right. The sanctuary is holy, and if what you say is correct, that is very disrespectfull. Have you talked to the pastor? If that got you nowhere, have you written or called the bishop or his office?
 
OH my that is APPALLING. Please by all means talk to your priest and then go to the diocesan Bishop. That does need to be put to an end. :eek:
 
first the dioceses where you’re church is must be on hard times and can,t afford a Church all of its own.In such cases I would say the Church has to do what it has to do.I’m sure that the priests wish things were different but under the circumstances they see no other solutions.I am assuming that their is no way that any one could get to consecrated Hosts.If that then we really would have problems.
 
valentino said:
first the dioceses where you’re church is must be on hard times and can,t afford a Church all of its own.In such cases I would say the Church has to do what it has to do.I’m sure that the priests wish things were different but under the circumstances they see no other solutions.I am assuming that their is no way that any one could get to consecrated Hosts.If that then we really would have problems.
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No, what’s going on is we’re building a new Cathedral and moving in there at the end of the year. Our Church is too small for the area, so the diocese decided to sell it. We still have possession of it, our collections are going towards the monthly cost of the church, and it’s still a consecrated Catholic Church.

It’s hard to say how our priest would feel about it. He doesn’t exactly treat it as the most holiest place himself. I’m unsure if he even knows about it. The pictures were from a couple years old, but unless anyone from the Church saw what was going on, no one would know about it.

The tabernacle is kept in a side adoration chapel next to the baptismal font. They can get in it, but as long as no one forgot the key in the tabernacle, or on the side table on the altar, they shouldn’t be able to get to the consecrated hosts.

It would be nice to know if there’s some official guidelines for these situations. All I can find are guidelines for concerts. I’m unsure if that includes concert-like church services.🤷
 
When I was child, my family had a summer house in a small village, and we usually spent the summers there. The Sunday Masses were at the school. During the week the sanctuary was closed by a wooden wall, this was removed Saturday night and brought back Sunday night. The practice started in the thirties, and lasted for decades.

On that time the common belief was that the altar is consecrated, so in some way represent our Lord, and he likes the children, and this symbolic, and also the real weekly presence in the Mass in some way sanctifies them.

May be Jesus can sanctify the guitar music too by his presence. He is strong, draws everybody.
 
Love_Divine said:
My church was sold a couple years ago to a Evangelical Mennonite Fellowship congregation, but they haven’t paid for it fully yet, nor do they get possession until the end of this year. However, now it’s being shared as two separate churches in the name ecumenism :rolleyes:. It’s still a Catholic Church, but they have their own “Church Name” for the building and hold their services/events in the Church.

.
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situation is unclear
is it still a Catholic Church being used regularly for Catholic worship, or isn’t it? If not, there are no particular rules since it would have been deconsecrated by the bishop before it was sold, and because obviously the Blessed Sacrament is no longer present. If it is, then these are grave abuses that should be brought to the attention of the bishop, with documentation, at once.
 
Love_Divine said:
My church was sold a couple years ago to a Evangelical Mennonite Fellowship congregation, but they haven’t paid for it fully yet, nor do they get possession until the end of this year. However, now it’s being shared as two separate churches in the name ecumenism :rolleyes:. It’s still a Catholic Church, but they have their own “Church Name” for the building and hold their services/events in the Church.

Curious about what kind of a Christian group they were, I sought out their web site and found some pictures of their use of the Church and was horrified and sickened by what I saw.

In one picture, the Baptismal font was being used as a table for some person’s guitar case, while there were people up in the Sanctuary (they’re referring to is as the “stage” on their site) with their guitars, drums, and singers, while another guy was walking down the steps with a cup of coffee. In another picture, outside of a Sunday service (the Sanctuary was prepped for the Saturday Vigil Mass.) there were some guys standing up in the Sanctuary visiting, and one of them was holding a cup of coffee.

My understanding is the Sanctuary is a very holy place, and is to be treated as such. I know non-Catholic Christian groups may be permitted to use the Church for their services with special permission from the Bishop, but does anyone know what kind of use of the Sanctuary by them is permitted? I myself have attended that church for over 20 years, and have only been up in the Sanctuary once during my First Communion. We don’t just permit people going into the Sanctuary. This just seems wrong to allow such use of the Sanctuary.
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Ugh. I’m so sick of this “all in the name of ecumenism” attitude. “Abuses to Christ in the Eucharist (which, disrespect to the Sanctuary, which is a part of the Eucharistic Christ’s house, is disrespect to the Eucharistic Christ) are okay so long as it’s all in the name of ecumenism and unity (under false pretenses) among all churches.”
I think I read a short while ago that when Pope John Paul II had an interfaith prayer service at the Basillica of St. Francis in Assisi that, in the rooms where each of the faiths went to practice their own prayers and rituals after the general prayer meeting, they actually covered up the crucifixes in those rooms in order to not make the members of other faiths “uncomfortable”. Has anyone else heard of this?
 
TheMc said:
Or maybe we should just use sacred music to begin with, as the church wants.
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The question was what the Mennonites should do, who rent the church building with option to buy. Our sacred music is not their sacred music.

Our music will be sacred -
  • by the approval of the church and
  • by the intention to please and serve God
and not by the absence of guitar.
 
puzzleannie said:
situation is unclear
is it still a Catholic Church being used regularly for Catholic worship, or isn’t it? If not, there are no particular rules since it would have been deconsecrated by the bishop before it was sold, and because obviously the Blessed Sacrament is no longer present. If it is, then these are grave abuses that should be brought to the attention of the bishop, with documentation, at once.
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It’s still very much a Catholic Church. It’s still consecrated, and the Blessed Sacrament is still there in the Tabernacle, in the Adoration Chapel right next to Sanctuary and Baptismal Font, Sanctuary Candle burning bright.

Is the Sanctuary still a holy place and treated as such if the Tabernacle isn’t in it, the Altar is removed, and the pulpit moved off to the side? I know there are certain precautions that are supposed to take place for the use of the Sanctuary outside of the liturgy.
 
laszlo said:
The question was what the Mennonites should do, who rent the church building with option to buy. Our sacred music is not their sacred music.

Our music will be sacred -
  • by the approval of the church and
  • by the intention to please and serve God
and not by the absence of guitar.
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I don’t know about that. Isn’t sacred music an objective definition?
 
Love_Divine said:
It’s still very much a Catholic Church. It’s still consecrated, and the Blessed Sacrament is still there in the Tabernacle, in the Adoration Chapel right next to Sanctuary and Baptismal Font, Sanctuary Candle burning bright.

Is the Sanctuary still a holy place and treated as such if the Tabernacle isn’t in it, the Altar is removed, and the pulpit moved off to the side? I know there are certain precautions that are supposed to take place for the use of the Sanctuary outside of the liturgy.
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If the Eucharist is in the sanctuary in the tabernacle there during their “services”, WRITE THE BISHOP IMMEDIATELY.
 
TheMc said:
If the Eucharist is in the sanctuary in the tabernacle there during their “services”, WRITE THE BISHOP IMMEDIATELY.
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No. It’s one of those post-Vatican II style churches, so the Tabernacle is never in the Sanctuary. They still have access to it in the Chapel, as it’s impossible to restrict access inside because the chapel has an entire cut-out where there would normally be a wall. I’m assuming the key was removed from the Tabernacle. The only way I would know what’s going on in there right now, would be to go into the church during their services, but I would get in trouble for being in there while they’re using it. The pictures I found were from a couple years ago, so if the problem was corrected, I wouldn’t know.
 
Love_Divine said:
No. It’s one of those post-Vatican II style churches, so the Tabernacle is never in the Sanctuary. They still have access to it in the Chapel, as it’s impossible to restrict access inside because the chapel has an entire cut-out where there would normally be a wall. I’m assuming the key was removed from the Tabernacle. The only way I would know what’s going on in there right now, would be to go into the church during their services, but I would get in trouble for being in there while they’re using it. The pictures I found were from a couple years ago, so if the problem was corrected, I wouldn’t know.
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If they are a church, shouldn’t they let people come to their services? I could go undercover and see what happens. It could be serious.
 
TheMc said:
If they are a church, shouldn’t they let people come to their services? I could go undercover and see what happens. It could be serious.
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True, but I could never pass for a Mennonite woman, and if I saw such abhorrent behaviour, well…you know that passage in the Bible where Jesus threw people out of the Temple? That would be me. Calm, rationality about these things, I am not. I also worry that I might be over-reacting.

I don’t understand why we even let non-Catholics into the Sanctuary. I’m Catholic, and I’m not even allowed up there! There’s plenty of space below the steps for their band (much more than up in the Sanctuary), and we have a new sound system, that would be much more helpful to them rather than them hauling in their own sound system into the Sanctuary. They don’t even refer to it as that. They call it a stage! And why must they bring their coffee up there? Is nothing sacred anymore?
 
Love_Divine said:
My church was sold a couple years ago to a Evangelical Mennonite Fellowship congregation, but they haven’t paid for it fully yet, nor do they get possession until the end of this year. However, now it’s being shared as two separate churches in the name ecumenism :rolleyes:. It’s still a Catholic Church, but they have their own “Church Name” for the building and hold their services/events in the Church.

Curious about what kind of a Christian group they were, I sought out their web site and found some pictures of their use of the Church and was horrified and sickened by what I saw.

In one picture, the Baptismal font was being used as a table for some person’s guitar case, while there were people up in the Sanctuary (they’re referring to is as the “stage” on their site) with their guitars, drums, and singers, while another guy was walking down the steps with a cup of coffee. In another picture, outside of a Sunday service (the Sanctuary was prepped for the Saturday Vigil Mass.) there were some guys standing up in the Sanctuary visiting, and one of them was holding a cup of coffee.

My understanding is the Sanctuary is a very holy place, and is to be treated as such. I know non-Catholic Christian groups may be permitted to use the Church for their services with special permission from the Bishop, but does anyone know what kind of use of the Sanctuary by them is permitted? I myself have attended that church for over 20 years, and have only been up in the Sanctuary once during my First Communion. We don’t just permit people going into the Sanctuary. This just seems wrong to allow such use of the Sanctuary.
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It is up to your bishop to set guidelines on how the structure is to be treated before the sale takes place. This should have been done in writing. Perhaps it was and the new group is just not following their obligation, but I doubt it.

Two things though. First, based on their beliefs, customs, the new owner is not mistreating the structure. It’s not something intentional although they should be hyper sensitive to our Catholic beliefs and customs until we fully move out.

Second, most parish churches are not “consecrated.” Many obviously receive a blessing but relatively few are “consecrated.”
 
ElToro said:
Two things though. First, based on their beliefs, customs, the new owner is not mistreating the structure.
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It appears that they are mistreating it, they just don’t know it. Disrespect is still disrespect.
 
TheMc said:
I don’t know about that. Isn’t sacred music an objective definition?
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  1. Within the limits set by the typical editions of the liturgical books, it shall be for the competent territorial ecclesiastical authority mentioned in Art. 22, 2, to specify adaptations, especially in the case of the administration of the sacraments, the sacramentals, processions, liturgical language,** sacred music**, and the arts, but according to the fundamental norms laid down in this Constitution.
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vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19631204_sacrosanctum-concilium_en.html
 
TheMc said:
It appears that they are mistreating it, they just don’t know it. Disrespect is still disrespect.
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Aye

Common sense dictates that you don’t use a Baptismal Font as a table.

For something that is supposedly “in the name of ecumenism” one would think there would be some sort of understanding of Catholicism and how sacred we hold everything that one would err on the side of caution and treat the area with the utmost of respect and dignity? I know I don’t walk into places of worship for protestant weddings and treat them like any ol’ building because I’m Catholic and therefore do not hold that the area is a Church. The same thing with LDS Temples. To me most of them are just amazing-looking buildings, but I still respect that they treat them as the place of the Holiest of the Holies don’t do something that migh upset them.

Blind igornance about these types of things is not really an excuse anymore. We live in the world of the internet. If you’re going to use a Catholic Church for your services, especially regularly, would you not educate yourself on where you’re holding your services?
 
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