Perpetual sin vs itemized sin (is confession useless)

[Mijoy2]

Does anyone else suffer with this dilemma?

When I go to confession, I am instructed to confess sins in an itemized manner.
However, I do not feel I have committed sin as much as I feel I am in a constant perpetual mindset of sin(ing). Therefore my confession seems meaningless. I will walk out of the confessional still in my pertetual state of sinfullness.

I will begin this thread without example because often in these forums well meaning people will pick up on the example. The problelm here, as I see it is that there are many examples. I am hoping others will understand what I am talking about without example. If an example becomes necassary we can go that route.

It’s not “a” sin I need to confess, it is my sinfullness. This sinfullness will not leave me when I leave the confessional.

Hope I am being clear.

 

[Deb_H]

I raise my hand and confess I too live in a perpetual state of sinfulness . I cant speak for others but I certainly understood clearly what you were saying .
I believe we all live in this sinful state and that some of us seem more aware of it and less able to let it go than others .
I have confessed this and been told that :

"Christs blood is sufficient for me . He knows we are not perfect this side of purgatory and that we must keep trying and keep praying and make heavy use of the sacraments . "

I personally find that if I read my bible every day and ask for the holy spirit every day , then I do pretty well remembering that if I keep turning from the temptations that beset me I am still alright with the Lord . Its when I dont do those things and forget that temptation is not sin that I fail to have the joy of the Lord and Satan steals my peace .

I hope this helps . It helps me some just to know I am not some freak and there are other folks who feel the same way I do .

 

[NHInsider]

I think I know what you are trying to say - that your concern is not so much with your actions but with your concupiscience (that being the term for the human appetites that are often resistant to reason and opposed to faith)?

Even though our sinfulness is removed by Baptism, our concupiscience remains as it is part of our humanity, and part of the work for which we have been saved by grace is the struggle to overcome these desires to live only on the material plane. But since sin requires an act of the will in opposition to God, having that fallen nature is not in itself a sin.

Or are you saying that you find yourself in an on-going state of rebellion against God? That seems unlikely if you are availing yourself of the graces of Reconciliation, but perhaps the evil one is trying to persuade you that you are not in fact absolved?

Have you attempted to discuss this with your confessor?

 

[Mijoy2]

I raise my hand and confess I too live in a perpetual state of sinfulness . I cant speak for others but I certainly understood clearly what you were saying .
I believe we all live in this sinful state and that some of us seem more aware of it and less able to let it go than others .
I have confessed this and been told that :

"Christs blood is sufficient for me . He knows we are not perfect this side of purgatory and that we must keep trying and keep praying and make heavy use of the sacraments . "

I personally find that if I read my bible every day and ask for the holy spirit every day , then I do pretty well remembering that if I keep turning from the temptations that beset me I am still alright with the Lord . Its when I dont do those things and forget that temptation is not sin that I fail to have the joy of the Lord and Satan steals my peace .

I hope this helps . It helps me some just to know I am not some freak and there are other folks who feel the same way I do .

Thank you and you offer good advice. Stay near to God through His sacrements and prayer and maybe we can, at least, reduce the flames of our pertetual sinful nature.

 

[Mijoy2]

I think I know what you are trying to say - that your concern is not so much with your actions but with your concupiscience (that being the term for the human appetites that are often resistant to reason and opposed to faith)?

Even though our sinfulness is removed by Baptism, our concupiscience remains as it is part of our humanity, and part of the work for which we have been saved by grace is the struggle to overcome these desires to live only on the material plane. But since sin requires an act of the will in opposition to God, having that fallen nature is not in itself a sin.

Or are you saying that you find yourself in an on-going state of rebellion against God? That seems unlikely if you are availing yourself of the graces of Reconciliation, but perhaps the evil one is trying to persuade you that you are not in fact absolved?

Have you attempted to discuss this with your confessor?

The former is correct. At least I attempt to not be in a state of rebellion even if it feels I may be from time to time.

Yes, I suppose there is a word for this as you point out "concupiscience ".

I do not have a confessor. Or, at least, a regular confessor. I have found that most parishes, including mine, has about 1/2 a week set aside for confession. This leads me to hop around because I cannot usually get to the prescribed 1/2 hour. Also, I find that priests provide mixed messages in the confessional. I would like to find a good confessor. What I usually do is travel to a chapel in my area that offers daily confession. However the line is usually long and I feel guilty taking up too much time.

The priest in my parish actuall told me (very politely) that he prefers the itemized sin approach. I often do not feel I have much to confess in ths manner. I am certainly NOT suggesting I do not have sin on my soul, this is not what I mean at all. I mean I feel I have infinate sin on my soul and it’s sort of like picking a number from - to + infinity, it seem rather pointless. I just feel my biggest sin is in my state of mind.

It’s almost like rain. I can walk out of the rain and into the confessional but when I walk out of the confessional I walk back into the rain. Alll I got was a moments reprieve.

 

[dailey]

This is a very interesting thread. I think I feel the same way, at times, as I leave confession. But I have to admit, I’m not really sure what you all are talking about.:shrug

In my case, I seem to have mood swings though out the day. So 5 minutes after confession, I am cussing under my breath at the car in front of me.

 

[Mijoy2]

This is a very interesting thread. I think I feel the same way, at times, as I leave confession. But I have to admit, I’m not really sure what you all are talking about.:shrug

In my case, I seem to have mood swings though out the day. So 5 minutes after confession, I am cussing under my breath at the car in front of me.

I realize it is bit difficult to talk about in lui of an example. I was attempting to avoid examples.

Here is one concept of which I mean:
Seeking one’s own glory even in the “good” things one does. In other words, when you reflect on your good works or charity towards others you hope you came across well, you hope you looked good, you hope others noticed. This is a nature as opposed to an itemizable sin (in my opinion) because it reflects the way you feel not what you did.

This is just one example though. There are many. It’s an attitude or state of being one struggles to overcome.

 

[Mangy_Donkey]

I realize it is bit difficult to talk about in lui of an example. I was attempting to avoid examples.

Here is one concept of which I mean:
Seeking one’s own glory even in the “good” things one does. In other words, when you reflect on your good works or charity towards others you hope you came across well, you hope you looked good, you hope others noticed. This is a nature as opposed to an itemizable sin (in my opinion) because it reflects the way you feel not what you did.

This is just one example though. There are many. It’s an attitude or state of being one struggles to overcome.

Hmmm, really interesting thread. Just wondering would you consider the perpetual sin you seem to have mortal sin? I too am in a constant state of sinning in some way or another but don’t consider this state mortal sin but rather venial. I think most people are in this state because of our fallen nature. Don’t get me wrong, I am not saying it doesn’t bother me, but I don’t let it bring me to the point of depression. I am not exactly sure what effect this has on our relationship with God but I do know that it does not separate us from him as mortal sin does.

If you are truly making a conscious effort to avoid sin I think that is the best one can do. As for me, if my sins are mortal, I itemize them. I then discuss perpetual venial sins that I struggle with not so much in an itemized way but in general, pride, anger etc.

 

[ebcat]

Mijoy2,

I “think” I am in the exact same mindframe as you are. I feel that I am always in a sinful mindset. Sometimes, which is pretty rarely, I feel that my confession was useless because of my perpetual sinfulness. I know that I will mess up in the future. I have asked every priest that I have confessed to “why will a human who believes and knows something to be wrong, i.e. sinning, commit them or give in to them anyways?” Every time the answer is our fallen nature and our concupisence.

This is such a cop out answer to me even though I believe it to be true. Its almost like saying we can’t help ourselves. As I pondered this for the last few months, I actually realize that I am trying to beat my sinfulness with pride. “I can resist, I can beat this, What do you mean I can’t help myself, of course I can! I can beat original sin!” These are things I used to tell myself. CS Lewis has a chapter in Mere Christianity about pride which actually hit home with me.

My point is that I gave up. Now don’t take this the wrong way. I didn’t give up on trying to resist or find a better answer to my question. I just gave it up to Christ. I quit worrying about it. I put it in His hands and offered it up. I started to surround myself with things more powerful than me and my pride. I ordered some wristbands with 2 Corinthians 12:9-10 printed on them. I try to go to weekly mass whenever I can. I try to attend adoration once a week.

I’ve learned its all about humility. Your example of seeking one’s glory in the good things you do is what I mean. Store up your treasure in Heaven! In fact, I pray that nobody glorifies me for my actions. They were God’s actions carried out through me. They weren’t mine. We don’t need people to justify us or give us instant gratification for our actions. What the Father sees in secret, He will reward in secret.

I hope I stayed on topic…if not I’m sorry.

 

[Mijoy2]

ebcat, you and the others are certainly on track. It is somewhat comforting me to hear others have the same dilemma. I gues we are a work-in-progress and (at least some of us) have a long way to go. I hope we are judged by our efforts to progress to sainthood and not our success rate.

Thanks for the responses.

 

[JohnCS]

Hi Mijoy,

This is obviously only my opinion, but I think that two other posters hit the nail on the head. Your example is a form of pride, and so is not just a frame of mind but can be a sinful action. It is the same as with constant lustful thoughts, those are easier to recognize for what they are, and therefore a little easier to defend agaisnt. I too have trouble with pride in the exact way that you are explaining it. I am slowly getting over it with 2 simple ideas/prayers. One, every day and night I ask Christ to help transform me into the man that I was created to be. To help me better understand His teachings and live them as He lived them. Then I also recognize that there is a battle going on for my soul. Satan wants it almost as bad as God does and he is ALWAYS trying to get me to fall. So, every time I start to feel some type of temptation or feel myself getting proud or what ever, I recite the shortened version of the Prayer to St. Michael. It has worked every time and temptations are beaten. I know it is not I who have beat the temptation by myself, but only with the help of God and His Angels. As far as confession, if I remember right St. Joan of Arc, and many other Saints are reported to have gone to confession every day, if not more than once a day…so you are in good company if you feel you need to keep going back.

Saint Michael, the Arch Angel, defend us in battle.
Be our defense agaisnt the wickedness and snares of the devil.
May God rebuke him, I humbly pray, and do Thou of Prince of the Heavenly Host,
by the power of God, thrust into Hell, Satan and all the evil sprits that roam the earth seeking the destruction of souls.
Amen

God bless,

John

 

[Deb_H]

You know ? I have been ruminating on this today . And the conclusion I have come to is that some priests are super confessors and some have other gifts .
My first confessor was really gifted in this . He listened fully to however I could say my sins , talked with me a little about them , then sat back and prayed for a minute or so and then made the penance fit the crime . It was amazing how this helped me with those sins so much better than just saying 3 "hail Marys "and one “our Father "
For instance , I had a terrible time with little white lies . You know , " yes it was lovely meatloaf " " no that dress you absolutely love looks great on you ! " etc etc . In confession with Father John , he first told me that the” truth leaves a clean wound " he seemed to know this was habitual from childhood due to the questions he asked me . He then assigned as penance to sit in the church and gaze at the cross for 30 minutes reflecting on what Jesus did for the truth . How He did not sidestep or tell little white lies …
I long for confession with that priest !!! I dont struggle with that particular sin much at all any more . I now live in another state but if I could confess on the phone you KNOW my phone bill would go up !!!
I would like to try the priest in the next town over for confession to see if he is gifted in this way , but my husband is against it and since I am committed to him being the leader in the home I will not buck him .
If you can go to another priest , try it . It may make a difference . In the end ? All of you in the same boat , I salute you for your courage in speaking out about it especially you Mijoy2 for starting the thread . Thank you all for the encouragment you are . God Bless us one and all Debbie

 

[James224]

I realize it is bit difficult to talk about in lui of an example. I was attempting to avoid examples.

Here is one concept of which I mean:
Seeking one’s own glory even in the “good” things one does. In other words, when you reflect on your good works or charity towards others you hope you came across well, you hope you looked good, you hope others noticed. This is a nature as opposed to an itemizable sin (in my opinion) because it reflects the way you feel not what you did.

This is just one example though. There are many. It’s an attitude or state of being one struggles to overcome.

Here’s a couple of things: You could be suffering from scrupulosity. Luther suffered from that. He would come out of the Confessional and have a bad thought and turn right around and go back in. He seemed to always have a sickening feeling about sin. A good Spiritual Director could help you with that. In today’s world, it’s more rare but I’ve know a couple of people with it. You mentioned “Seeking one’s glory” in good works and then feeling bad. This has to do with “Motives” and the saints speak much about this. You might try reading some of the spiritual works in the Church. They all write about this.

 

[MagsM]

…
some priests are super confessors and some have other gifts.

My first confessor was really gifted in this.
…
If you can go to another priest, try it. It may make a difference .

Soooo true! I had one confessor who did more talking than me, one who was outright antagonistic, one who just sat there and stared with a blank expression where I couldn’t really tell if he was paying attention, and yet others who were very insightful in their response and provided terrific guidance and were of great benefit - very godly men. So progress can be impacted by the confessor, for sure. I’ll do my best to avoid the antagonistic priest in the future. Luckily the past few times I did not have to go to him!

And for the OP, I also wonder: what do we do when we’re not outright sinning, but have thoughts or mindsets that will lead us to sin? It feels odd to “confess” things like “I was not seeking God’s glory, I was seeking to make myself look good instead”, or 'I was prideful towards x and was judging x", or “I got angry with so and so because of pride or self centeredness”, etc. These are not sins against the 10 commandments per se are they? (although idolatry is always a biggie in the self centerdness dept) Jesus says out of the heart flow the issues of life and the pure in heart shall see God. I’d like to have my heart pure, but I get a bit confused as to what is confess-able and what is wasting the priests time.

 

[NaomiL]

Hi, I have to agree with James224 in that you might be suffering from “the scruples” as I like to think of it. I’ve suffered from it pretty much since I rejoined the Catholic faith and it resulted in a priest in the confessional asking me if I really believed that Jesus died for me. Of course I said yes but I realised that I hadn’t let that belief really enter my heart for a long time. I left the confessional and there was a great big crucifix and I just cried and cried and although I still struggle, I always try to remember that Jesus died for me out of the greatest love. We are bought and paid for and His grace is far greater than any of our sins (including your feeling of perpetually sinning).

If you’re feeling like you’re constantly turning from God or that your perpetually sinful nature is too much, maybe try praying the Divine Mercy prayer and remember that “[His] grace is enough”.

I also think (and please don’t think I’m trying to offend you) that part of the issue here is a focus on self. It is vitally important that we reflect on our actions and our state of mind and our relationship with God but sometimes it can become all our thinking (and lead to scruples) and so we are placing ourselves in the centre of our universe - when that place should be for God and Christ in other people. I know you said that even when doing “good” you worry that you’re doing it out of pride but maybe you should try and do some regular volunteering or even just sit and chat to a homeless person - something that no-one else would know about. Something very physical which gets you away from your thoughts would be best.

And always remember to pray to God that He will change your heart!

 

[NHInsider]

ebcat, you and the others are certainly on track. It is somewhat comforting me to hear others have the same dilemma. I gues we are a work-in-progress and (at least some of us) have a long way to go. I hope we are judged by our efforts to progress to sainthood and not our success rate.

Thanks for the responses.

This side of Jordan, all of us are works-in-progress. But we are His work, not our own. The Holy Spirit will conform us more and more into imitators of Christ, as we allow Him to direct our will.

I think it is telling that the memoirs of many of the saints reveal that the more holy they became, the more aware they were of their sinfulness. This is, I think, God’s work in hearts and minds.

If you are filthy and you rinse off with the hose, you look so much better - but then you can see the more ground-in dirt, and so you might hit the sink and grab some soap. Then your hands look good but now you can see the dirt on your arms by contrast, so into the shower you go. . . . and of course, each day you get dirty again and need to wash again. As in the natural world, so in the supernatural . . . .

 

[upbeatjonm]

Mijoy,

I feel the exact same way. The sins of impure thoughts, being critical of others, not praying often enough, etc. are all hard to number, but rather are “traits” in our personality that are difficult to eradicate.

I find my confessions dry sometimes for the same reasons, since the sins are part of my personality and not something tied to a specific time and place.

 

[FrDonato]

After reading through all of the threads, it seems to me that the OP was referring to his concupiscence, i.e., his sin prone nature. NHInsider hit the nail on the head. Concupiscence is not a sin in itself, but the struggle we all have with our disordered desires, passions and appetites because of original sin. Before the Fall of Adam, mankind enjoyed the preternatural gift of Integrity, whereby our desires were under the control of the soul and right reason. After the Fall, this gift was lost and now every human being must struggle daily against his or her disordered passions. Concupiscence can become a cause of sin because we are strongly attracted to some apparent good or please that is contrary to God’s law or the natural law, but if we do not consent, no sin is committed. The good news is that concupiscence is gradually diminished by frequent worthy reception of the sacraments, especially Penance and Holy Eucharist. Fidelity to prayer is also very helpful.

 

[Moontown_Rabbit]

I liked the comment (I think it was from the OP) that going to confession is like temporarily stepping out of a rainstorm. A few months ago I saw a show about Buddhist monks searching around for the reincarnation of a lama by examining 1 year old boys. When they found him, they convinced the parents to let them take the kid to the monastery for the rest of his life. I don’t buy the underlying ideology, but the practical implications appealed to me. Afterwards I had a silly argument with a seminarian friend that if the Church removed infant boys and girls to orthodox monasteries and convents those kids would grow up without a penchant for sin (in other words, they would live outside the rainstorm). He countered that they would still have concupisence, to which I replied that unactivated concupisence is the same as purity, and we just kept going round and round. Of significance to this argument is the life of St. Gerard Majella, in particular the testimony of his confessors. Majella went to confession often and from a very young age. All of his confessors claimed that they were never able to detect the comission of any real sin, either mortal or venial, from the saint’s own words. Majella was not the type of person to be insincere. So here you have an example of someone whose sinfulness was objectively undetectable. This works both for and against my proposal. It shows that concupisence can be supressed (so let’s put the infants in monasteries) and also that this can be acheived within society (no need to put the infants in monasteries). Of course no Catholic parents in their right minds are going to allow someone to take their baby away, but it makes for an interesting thought experiment.

 

[Guidissimo]

Even if I’ve confessed my sin and received absolution, can I still say and have the perception, “have mercy on me, a sinner?” God may see me and see righteousness, and when I look to him I see absolution, but if I look at myself all I see is my own sinfulness. I have to look at the word of reconciliation and the promise of baptism - “I am your righteousness, and I forgive you.” Can I see my own righteousness by looking at myself, even if I have no sin? I have to trust that the word of reconciliation is the word of Christ, and that my sinful nature truly was buried by God in baptism.

Whenever I’ve looked at myself, I sure look like a sinner, even though (formally) I may not be.