perpetual virginity of Mary..T or F?

[Kliska]

To be honest with you, I think protestants who make this argument just want to go against the Catholic Church teachings just because. Its sad, because they lead a lot of well intentioned people from the Church or those who are considering the Church.

Just FYI, I don’t think this is accurate for the majority of Protestants. I can offer my experience; growing up I got my beliefs from my parents and the idea of the PV of Mary was never mentioned, and a big deal was never made of Jesus’ siblings, and come to think of it, I don’t even know if my mom and/or dad know that PV is a teaching. Further, as I got older and began to study scripture, I always just believed He did have brothers and sisters from reading the text. I didn’t know it was a teaching of the RCC either, so how could my, or my parents’, motivation be to go against the RCC? None of the churches I attended were anti-RCC and Mary’s virginity or PV after the birth of Jesus wasn’t discussed much, if ever.

 

[aidanbradypop]

Just FYI, I don’t think this is accurate for the majority of Protestants. I can offer my experience; growing up I got my beliefs from my parents and the idea of the PV of Mary was never mentioned, and a big deal was never made of Jesus’ siblings, and come to think of it, I don’t even know if my mom and/or dad know that PV is a teaching. Further, as I got older and began to study scripture, I always just believed He did have brothers and sisters from reading the text. I didn’t know it was a teaching of the RCC either, so how could my, or my parents’, motivation be to go against the RCC? None of the churches I attended were anti-RCC and Mary’s virginity or PV after the birth of Jesus wasn’t discussed much, if ever.

Good point.

To many protestant…they could actually careless if Mary was a PV or had other children. The virgin birth of Christ is their main focus. Anything after that really plays no role in salvation.

 

[chero23]

Just FYI, I don’t think this is accurate for the majority of Protestants. I can offer my experience; growing up I got my beliefs from my parents and the idea of the PV of Mary was never mentioned, and a big deal was never made of Jesus’ siblings, and come to think of it, I don’t even know if my mom and/or dad know that PV is a teaching. Further, as I got older and began to study scripture, I always just believed He did have brothers and sisters from reading the text. I didn’t know it was a teaching of the RCC either, so how could my, or my parents’, motivation be to go against the RCC? None of the churches I attended were anti-RCC and Mary’s virginity or PV after the birth of Jesus wasn’t discussed much, if ever.

Ok maybe you say that you never heard at your house or your church. Perfect, I believe you. ’

But, you said that when you read Scripture you saw the word brothers next to Jesus. Im guessing you said those are Mary’s kids? Right? Ok like I told the person who started the post, and I ask you, you know Jesus had a father right? He was Joseph, whom history and the Church says that he was a widower so he was married and a man older than Mary.

Wouldn’t you think those kids if they are truly Jesus brother’s might be Joseph’s son and not Mary’s? I mean, throughout the whole OT we hear of how the men had kids from different women.

Just saying

 

[chero23]

Good point.

To many protestant…they could actually careless if Mary was a PV or had other children. The virgin birth of Christ is their main focus. Anything after that really plays no role in salvation.

No, I think it is a big deal, because when you hear a lot of conversion stories to Catholicism, they’ll say, you know what, I had a hard time with praying to saints, but got over it, I didn’t believe the Eucharist was real, but reading Scripture and being profound I found that Jesus is in the Eucharist. They’ll even say, I knew that while reading the Bible that once saved always saved was a false doctrine, But, then we get to Mary, and they feel that that’s the topic that will keep them Protestant. trust me Mary is a big deal, because a lot of people from the outside say we worship Mary, so they feel its best to throw dirt on her.

 

[Kliska]

Ok maybe you say that you never heard at your house or your church. Perfect, I believe you. ’

But, you said that when you read Scripture you saw the word brothers next to Jesus. Im guessing you said those are Mary’s kids? Right? Ok like I told the person who started the post, and I ask you, you know Jesus had a father right? He was Joseph, whom history and the Church says that he was a widower so he was married and a man older than Mary.

Wouldn’t you think those kids if they are truly Jesus brother’s might be Joseph’s son and not Mary’s? I mean, throughout the whole OT we hear of how the men had kids from different women.

Just saying

Yes, the RCC teaches that; but that isn’t in the text of scripture. So, no, I never would have thought that Joseph had children with another woman just from reading scripture. As already discussed there is also a Messianic Psalm talking about “Mother’s sons” add that to the plain reading of the NT text, we just always took it for granted that Mary had other sons. Just taking it for granted isn’t good enough for theology, but that’s not what we are discussing; it is the motivation for denying PV. For most of us protestants it isn’t a slam against the RCC at all because it was never really even on the radar. Ignorance perhaps, but not maliciousness.

 

[aidanbradypop]

No, I think it is a big deal, because when you hear a lot of conversion stories to Catholicism, they’ll say, you know what, I had a hard time with praying to saints, but got over it, I didn’t believe the Eucharist was real, but reading Scripture and being profound I found that Jesus is in the Eucharist. They’ll even say, I knew that while reading the Bible that once saved always saved was a false doctrine, But, then we get to Mary, and they feel that that’s the topic that will keep them Protestant. trust me Mary is a big deal, because a lot of people from the outside say we worship Mary, so they feel its best to throw dirt on her.

I did not say Mary was less important. Her role in our salvation is extremely important and actually needed.

Her PV, IC…etc is not really important when it comes to our salvation in Christ. If Mary was not IC or a PV, would that lessen Christ as being the Son of God?

 

[chero23]

Yes, the RCC teaches that; but that isn’t in the text of scripture. So, no, I never would have thought that Joseph had children with another woman just from reading scripture. As already discussed there is also a Messianic Psalm talking about “Mother’s sons” add that to the plain reading of the NT text, we just always took it for granted that Mary had other sons. Just taking it for granted isn’t good enough for theology, but that’s not what we are discussing; it is the motivation for denying PV. For most of us protestants it isn’t a slam against the RCC at all because it was never really even on the radar. Ignorance perhaps, but not maliciousness.

Yes probably it started with ignorance and nothing maliciousness, but unfortunately it grew and Mary was seen as an obstacle and worse yet, bad names and words were thrown at her.

Once again, maybe it was ignorance, maybe it was being naïve with scripture, but that grew maybe not with you, or the OP, or others, but it grew to the point of it being malicious. Once again not with you bc you sound like a person with a good heart, but can I say that about others Protestants, I don’t think you and I can say that.

 

[Kliska]

Yes probably it started with ignorance and nothing maliciousness, but unfortunately it grew and Mary was seen as an obstacle and worse yet, bad names and words were thrown at her.

Once again, maybe it was ignorance, maybe it was being naïve with scripture, but that grew maybe not with you, or the OP, or others, but it grew to the point of it being malicious. Once again not with you bc you sound like a person with a good heart, but can I say that about others Protestants, I don’t think you and I can say that.

There are always going to be people from every church that are mean and malicious; Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox, etc… But if we look at this particular teaching, even those that deny the PV of Mary, like me, don’t see that as a slam on Mary; how could we? There is nothing sinful or wrong about sex in marriage or procreation; both are blessings given by God.

And, I can truly say I’ve not ever heard Mary called a bad name from any of the pulpits in any of the churches I’ve attended. I’m sure it’s happened sometime or somewhere, most things have, but it isn’t the norm. I’ve heard the RCC attacked much more than Mary being attacked. The “worst” thing I’ve heard about Mary is that she was a sinner in need of a Savior like all other humans, but that had nothing to do with the idea of PV or a lack of it.

The only reason I’m trying to clarify is because that would also be a misunderstanding; the idea that Protestants teach what they do about Mary only because they want to fight the RCC.

 

[chero23]

I did not say Mary was less important. Her role in our salvation is extremely important and actually needed.

Her PV, IC…etc is not really important when it comes to our salvation in Christ. If Mary was not IC or a PV, would that lessen Christ as being the Son of God?

Ok, lets go in parts. First with the PV of Mary. Im going to talk about this bc as Tim Staples states, 'When you take away from Mary, your taking away from the divinity of God". Ill explain to you why.

Jesus is a man of purity, in Ezekiel 44:2, it states that no one can pass through the same door that God passes by. Why is that, bc God is pure and nothing nor anyone can pass through the same door as him bc he is a man who is pure in the most divine way. That text is a talking about Mary. Even Zwingli used this text to say that Mary was a PV. Why is this important, because remember in Hebrews we read that Jesus is the High Priest. Ok, Mary is the Ark of the NT, read 2 Samuel 6 and Luke 1:39-2:1, see the parallels. Ok, the High Priest (Aaron) was the only person allowed to go into the Tent where the Ark was located. You see that into the NT. Jesus is the High Priest (ie Aaron), and he’s the only one that can be in the tent of the Ark (Mary).

Now with the IC, why is this important. Bc, Mary is the New Eve. Eve was born with no sin, Mary was conceived with no original Sin, Mary has to be done the same way. Read John 1:1- 2:11, to see the parallels with Genesis 1:1-3:1-14, see how John takes the same format of Genesis, in the beginning, the next day, the next day. You will se why it is important for Mary to be away for all sin, from her conception, so that she can be the New Eve, but a better Eve.

 

[chero23]

There are always going to be people from every church that are mean and malicious; Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox, etc… But if we look at this particular teaching, even those that deny the PV of Mary, like me, don’t see that as a slam on Mary; how could we? There is nothing sinful or wrong about sex in marriage or procreation; both are blessings given by God.

And, I can truly say I’ve not ever heard Mary called a bad name from any of the pulpits in any of the churches I’ve attended. I’m sure it’s happened sometime or somewhere, most things have, but it isn’t the norm. I’ve heard the RCC attacked much more than Mary being attacked. The “worst” thing I’ve heard about Mary is that she was a sinner in need of a Savior like all other humans, but that had nothing to do with the idea of PV or a lack of it.

The only reason I’m trying to clarify is because that would also be a misunderstanding; the idea that Protestants teach what they do about Mary only because they want to fight the RCC.

Im guessing that probably you haven’t seen it much, but I can tell you that when I was in the Fire Dept. this guy came to me and said, are you Catholic, I said yes, he said you know that your being lied to. I told him how are they? Because they say Mary was a virgin all her life and that is not true. She had more kids, and they are lying going against the Bible. When you hear others conversion stories, Mary is always a center piece.

 

[chero23]

There are always going to be people from every church that are mean and malicious; Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox, etc… But if we look at this particular teaching, even those that deny the PV of Mary, like me, don’t see that as a slam on Mary; how could we? There is nothing sinful or wrong about sex in marriage or procreation; both are blessings given by God.

And, I can truly say I’ve not ever heard Mary called a bad name from any of the pulpits in any of the churches I’ve attended. I’m sure it’s happened sometime or somewhere, most things have, but it isn’t the norm. I’ve heard the RCC attacked much more than Mary being attacked. The “worst” thing I’ve heard about Mary is that she was a sinner in need of a Savior like all other humans, but that had nothing to do with the idea of PV or a lack of it.

The only reason I’m trying to clarify is because that would also be a misunderstanding; the idea that Protestants teach what they do about Mary only because they want to fight the RCC.

I didn’t believe what he told me, I have been studying and I have found that what they teach is not true, and what the CC teaches is right on the mark. But people will go against the CC just because. Trust me, there’s a lot of churches who do it. For example, some churches say its ok to divorce, for contraception, for abortion, for homosexual marriages. They will accept it and say were not like the CC. I mean whether you know what the CC stance is on a particular topic or not, churches do try their best to distance themselves from the CC. Another good example is infant baptism

 

[aidanbradypop]

Ok, lets go in parts. First with the PV of Mary. Im going to talk about this bc as Tim Staples states, 'When you take away from Mary, your taking away from the divinity of God". Ill explain to you why.

Jesus is a man of purity, in Ezekiel 44:2, it states that no one can pass through the same door that God passes by. Why is that, bc God is pure and nothing nor anyone can pass through the same door as him bc he is a man who is pure in the most divine way. That text is a talking about Mary. Even Zwingli used this text to say that Mary was a PV. Why is this important, because remember in Hebrews we read that Jesus is the High Priest. Ok, Mary is the Ark of the NT, read 2 Samuel 6 and Luke 1:39-2:1, see the parallels. Ok, the High Priest (Aaron) was the only person allowed to go into the Tent where the Ark was located. You see that into the NT. Jesus is the High Priest (ie Aaron), and he’s the only one that can be in the tent of the Ark (Mary).

Now with the IC, why is this important. Bc, Mary is the New Eve. Eve was born with no sin, Mary was conceived with no original Sin, Mary has to be done the same way. Read John 1:1- 2:11, to see the parallels with Genesis 1:1-3:1-14, see how John takes the same format of Genesis, in the beginning, the next day, the next day. You will se why it is important for Mary to be away for all sin, from her conception, so that she can be the New Eve, but a better Eve.

Thanks for that. I do not see taking away from Mary is taking away from the divinity of God.

I have no issue with Mary being a PV or not. I can go either way but instead will remain in the middle.

I know the IC is not the topic of the thread and I kind of started it. lol Sorry about that. We can save the IC for another day.

 

[Randy_Carson]

To be fair…some acutally believe Mary had other children. They take no issue with that as it would not have any issue with Christ being the Son of God.

Many may make the argument simply to be anti Catholic while others believe it simply for believing it.

However, they would not believe this if they were taught properly from the pulpit. Since Luther (and Henry VIII, I believe) and Wesley believed Mary was ever-virgin, where did this novelty originate?

THIS is the fruit of sola scriptura - rejection of ancient Tradition and the teaching authority of the Church in favor of “every man for himself.”

That’s a bit of an oversimplification, of course, but good enough for the purposes of this discussion.

 

[Peter_J]

The only reason I’m trying to clarify is because that would also be a misunderstanding; the idea that Protestants teach what they do about Mary only because they want to fight the RCC.

I’m not going to try to jump into this conversation, since I haven’t read every post you’ve made on this thread or every post chero23 has made either. But as a life-long Catholic, I can tell you that it’s very common for Catholics to say things like “Protestants say such-and-such because they hate Catholicism” or “Orthodox say such-and-such as an excuse for maintaining the schism” and so on and so forth. (Do protestants say similar things, in reverse, about us Catholics?)

 

[Kliska]

I’m not going to try to jump into this conversation, since I haven’t read every post you’ve made on this thread or every post chero23 has made either. But as a life-long Catholic, I can tell you that it’s very common for Catholics to say things like “Protestants say such-and-such because they hate Catholicism” or “Orthodox say such-and-such as an excuse for maintaining the schism” and so on and so forth. (Do protestants say similar things, in reverse, about us Catholics?)

Wow, good question. I’d have to say no (and keep trying to think on it). The biggest thing I hear protestants “harp” on against Catholics is “that teaching is contrary to scripture” or “not in scripture” or “it didn’t originate from the Apostle’s teaching, but rather the surrounding culture.” I’ve never heard a protestant say, “the Catholics are only teaching X because they hate Protestants.”

 

[Amo_a_Jesus]

Many protestants will say that, you don’t need to down Mary, some other say Catholics exaggerate , and that not many churches talk about bad about her, But when it come to criticized or debate about Catholicism, Mary is most of times the First issue, so if you respect and honor The Mother of Your Savior, why are you using her ?

 

[Kliska]

Many protestants will say that, you don’t need to down Mary, some other say Catholics exaggerate , and that not many churches talk about bad about her, But when it come to criticized or debate about Catholicism, Mary is most of times the First issue, so if you respect and honor The Mother of Your Savior, why are you using her ?

From my perspective I can say that I believe it comes up because the RCC has made several statements about Mary that anyone and everyone must profess to become Catholic. That’s a huge deal. I can’t just agree that she is blessed, highly favored, is the Theotokos, is a Saint, etc… And I can’t just believe on Jesus and God as laid out by the RCC, I would also have to believe in things like the Immaculate Conception of Mary, and her Assumption.

In short, most protestants feel it is the RCC who has made Mary a defining feature in the conversation of teachings, for you can’t become Catholic without professing things specifically about her.

 

[Peter_J]

From my perspective I can say that I believe it comes up because the RCC has made several statements about Mary that anyone and everyone must profess to become Catholic. That’s a huge deal. I can’t just agree that she is blessed, highly favored, is the Theotokos, is a Saint, etc… And I can’t just believe on Jesus and God as laid out by the RCC, I would also have to believe in things like the Immaculate Conception of Mary, and her Assumption.

In short, most protestants feel it is the RCC who has made Mary a defining feature in the conversation of teachings, for you can’t become Catholic without professing things specifically about her.

I’m not at all surprised that you say that – it’s like the old principle that “A doctrine is not defined until it is challenged.” But I think that the protestant application of that principle (if it is an application) is really a mis-application that has become reactionary.

 

[Kliska]

I’m not at all surprised that you say that – it’s like the old principle that “A doctrine is not defined until it is challenged.” But I think that the protestant application of that principle (if it is an application) is really a mis-application that has become reactionary.

It’s me not you (lol), but you’ve lost me on the bolded bit above. Could you explain for me? Maybe using an example?

 

[zz912]

I did not say Mary was less important. Her role in our salvation is extremely important and actually needed.

Her PV, IC…etc is not really important when it comes to our salvation in Christ. If Mary was not IC or a PV, would that lessen Christ as being the Son of God?

You forgot the second part of this sentence…“in my limited, and fallible, opinion”.

Be real careful making such a blanket and categorical statement such as this. Just because you can’t understand something yet doesn’t mean it isn’t true.