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PRmerger
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Yes.
It is untenable to hold a position that it’s a reference to Jesus and Mary, and then to say, “It’s not a reference to Jesus.”
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It is untenable to hold a position that it’s a reference to Jesus and Mary, and then to say, “It’s not a reference to Jesus.”
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pocohombre
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kaneata
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Lochias
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If people weren’t satisfied with and ready to submit to the authority of the only Christian Church that existed for over a thousand years, they wouldn’t have gone out and made their own.
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Lochias
Guest
Yup. In a sad sort of way, the WBC is one of the best points we have against the doctrine of Sola Scriptura.
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pocohombre
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pocohombre
Guest
except for divine conception and the magi visit and a profound stint at the synagogue when 12 scripture indicates a normal appearance of jesus and his family
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YADA
Guest
Wow … and which passages in the Bible describe this normal appearance of the family?
I seemed to have missed the one where all the kids were sitting round the table and Mary was trying to get them to sit still and eat while discussing whose turn it was to do the dishes.
Or the story about how the kids were out in the yard playing tag or was it hide and seek?
Maybe it was the wedding feast at Cana … no … Mary is the only family member noted as being present, no Joseph, no siblings … and then the events of that day were not “normal” …
Gosh - not sure how I missed all the stories about the ‘normal’ family in the bible
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Randy_Carson
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I’m always amused when I see lists like these. There are over a billion Catholics in full communion with the Pope; these groups listed are microscopic by comparison. Either they are in communion with Rome or they aren’t, it’s just that simple.In all fairness, the same can be said with the Catholic Church as well.
American Catholic Church in the United States
Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church
Antiochian Catholic Church in America
Breakaway Catholic Churches
Catholic Charismatic Church of Canada
Christ Catholic Church
Conclavism
Ecumenical Catholic Church
Evangelical Catholic Church
Fraternité Notre-Dame
Free Church of Antioch
Imani Temple African-American Catholic Congregation
Independent Sacramental Movement
Liberal Catholic Church
Mariavite Church
National Catholic Church of America
Old Catholic Church
Old Roman Catholic Church
Old Catholic Mariavite Church
Order of Corporate Reunion
Orthodox-Catholic Church of America
Polish National Catholic Church
Philippine Independent Catholic Church
The Young Rite
as well as the groups that we are not allowed to post
I do not see how this has anything to do with the topic of the thread but felt the need to post it anyways.
Protestantism, on the other hand, has fragmented into hundreds, perhaps thousands, of individual denominations with no single leader. There are almost as many flavors of Lutheranism as you have listed above…then there are several groups of Presbyterians and an unknown number of Baptist denominations.
To attempt a comparison like this is silly.
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aidanbradypop
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We have since moved on to get back on topic but you are welcome to start a thread and we can talk about it there.
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drblank1
Guest
I only skimmed this thread so I apologize if someone has brought this up, but Matthew is clear that Mary did not remain a virgin.We have since moved on to get back on topic but you are welcome to start a thread and we can talk about it there.
“But he had no union with her as her husband until she had borne her firstborn Son; and he called His name Jesus.” Matthew 1:25
How would Matthew know Mary didn’t remain a virgin? He most likely encountered Jesus’ bothers and sisters that are mentioned in other parts of the Gospels.
I am not Catholic so I don’t understand the importance to the Catholic denomination of Mary’s perpetual virginity, but if it were so important to the Christian religion as a whole, you would think the apostles would have mentioned it in the scriptures.
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PRmerger
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If your criterion is “direct evidence”, can you give “direct evidence” that the Apostles preached the Trinity?
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PRmerger
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Until doesn’t mean anything occurred subsequently. It only means that it did not occur previously.
There is a verse in the OT that states that Michal “had no children until the day she died.”
Does that mean that Michal had children after she died? :whacky:
And here’s a verse from the NT: For he must reign, until he hath put all his enemies under his feet. -1Cor 15:25. Does that mean that Christ won’t reign after he has put all his enemies under his feet?
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PRmerger
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The same way that St. Luke knew that Mary “kept these things and pondered in her heart.”
That’s a man-made tradition you’ve been duped into believing, drblank.
There is nothing in Scripture that states, “If it’s so important the apostles would have mentioned it in the scriptures.”
In fact, we know that St. Paul preached in the temple for 3 months. Clearly, everything he preached could not have been contained in the written word. Would that we could hear and absorb everything that he preached!
(Oh, but Catholics can! His teachings have been preserved in Sacred Tradition as well!)
Luther calls out those who interpret Matthew 1:25 in this way, as well as responds to those who claim that scripture refers to Jesus having blood brothers and sisters.
and
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stewstew03
Guest
If “sola scriptura” were so important the apostles would have discussed it at length in the scriptures…
If doctrines like the “trinity” or “hypostasis” were so important the apostles would have mentioned them explicitly in the scriptures…
(We could go on and on).
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PRmerger
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'zactly.
I’ll add one more, just for fun: if Hebrews had been so important to include in the canon, you would think that the apostles would have mentioned, “And the Epistle to the Hebrews is indeed the inspired Word of God!”
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pocohombre
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I only mentioned life before his ministry. Jesus separated his ministry as not being a "family " thing. of course nothing is “normal” about His ministry, although there were many false messiahs before him, and to many he was just another one…Yes, you missed the deatils of there family life being normal like playing tag ,just as i missed them being “abnormal” as in being above or better than other families. Both are not in there, except where I mentioned (plus one I forgot, Simeon’s blessing/ prophecy was unique at his circumcision/cleansing,t hough it may have been common to prophecy over the dedication of a child, but certainly no one ever uttered such words as Simeon). Tell me , when Jesus began his ministry, what did people who knew him and his family say ? Is there any indication that He came from an an extra holy devout family ?Wow … and which passages in the Bible describe this normal appearance of the family?
I seemed to have missed the one where all the kids were sitting round the table and Mary was trying to get them to sit still and eat while discussing whose turn it was to do the dishes.
Or the story about how the kids were out in the yard playing tag or was it hide and seek?
Maybe it was the wedding feast at Cana … no … Mary is the only family member noted as being present, no Joseph, no siblings … and then the events of that day were not “normal” …
Gosh - not sure how I missed all the stories about the ‘normal’ family in the bible
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pocohombre
Guest
Yes, all the scriptural evidence used by St Basil and others to define it, defend it,scripture written by apostles or their immediate co-worker.
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