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PRmerger
Guest
Indeed.
And I think Mary’s PV provides great apologia to, say, Muslims, who doubt Christ’s divinity. Catholics (and others who espouse the doctrine of Mary’s PV) can say: look how divine the person of Jesus was. The womb which contained Him Who Could Not Be Contained contained no other being. He was that special.
However, when a Muslim is being evangelized by someone who rejects the PV, all the Muslim has to do is say, “Well, how numinous and holy and distinct is this person of Jesus Christ, if the womb which held him for 9 months held other sinful, tainted, dirty creatures?”
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aidanbradypop
Guest
I have seen many Muslims convert to Christianity by way of the Evangelical branch. The PV of Mary was never an issue and they still found Christ to be the Son of God that came to earth to save us.
If someone reject the divinity of Christ based on whether or not Mary’s womb then that is the wrong reason to convert. In Sura 19, the Qur’an declares that Jesus was the result of a virgin conception (verses 20-22).
S
stewstew03
Guest
Similarly…
“How reliable are the accounts of the virgin birth? All one has to do is point to the fact that Mary and Joseph had relations, and bore children. Perhaps Jesus was just like his brothers and sisters - an ordinary man.”
Z
zz912
Guest
Limited in the sense that we have to be mindful that our understanding of things is very small, especially compared to the entirety of the understanding of the Church. There are things that we may think unimportant, but the Church can understand have a much deeper and fundamental importance that we don’t see.I am not a Pope. I never claim to be infallible with my “limited” opinions. Not sure what you mean by limited.
Why should I be “real careful” when giving my opinion. I understand quite well. Understanding something does mean I have to believe or not believe. I understand parts of Mormonism.
So how does believing in the PV of Mary get you to heaven faster?
Also, we should be mindful of how much we don’t know. Take an example of ourselves, even just 5 or 10 years ago. I would assume that you are much more knowledgeable that compared to where you were 5 or 10 years ago. I know that I was quite ignorant of many things then that I am better versed on now.
My point in all that was to hopefully temper blanket statements like the one you made, because it can lock in opinions as facts and we can refuse to let new information affect those opinions. Perhaps it would be good to investigate why the Christian faith has held to the same view for 2,000 years on these topics, instead of making a declaration that this view is wrong.
As to your question, it can get us to heaven faster the closer we are to truth. And it can get us to heaven faster if we believe it and join the Catholic Church, and receive the sacraments. It can get us to heaven faster if we understand better the role of Mary as Ark of the New Covenant, and thereby come to have an even greater understanding and connection to Christ.
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aidanbradypop
Guest
So does believing in the PV of Mary get you to heaven faster?
5 or 10 years ago I was part of the RCC. Yes there is growth in that involves time.
I do not believe that the PV is wrong or right. I simply stated my opinion. IMO…the PV of Mary is not needed for our salvation. Do you disagree?
Christ’s death and rising from death gets us to heaven. Not believing in the PV of Mary. Does believing in the PV of Mary help or hurt? I believe it does neither.
C
chero23
Guest
I will very gladly answer your 5 questions in regard to the BVM. Let’s start first with Mary being Queen Mother and Queen of Heaven.
•1 Kings 2:13 Adonijah went to speak to Bathsheba, who is the mother of King Solomon
•1 Kings 2:16 Adonijah tells Bathsheba to not deny his petition
•1 Kings 2:19 so Bathsheba went to King Solomon, to speak to him on behalf of Adonijah. And the king rose to meet her, and bowed down to her;
•1 Kings 2:19 then he sat on his throne, and had a seat brought for the king’s mother; and she sat on his right.
•1 Kings 2:20 King Solomon tells his mother that he will not deny her on any request.
•1 Kings 14:21; 1 Kings 15:2; 1 Kings 22:42; 2 Kings 8:26; 2 Kings 12:1; 2 Kings 12:21-22; 2 Kings 14:2; 2 Kings 15:2; 2 Kings 15:32; 2 Kings 18:2; 2 Kings 21:1; 2 Kings 21:19; 2 Kings 22:1; 2 Kings 23:31; 2 Kings 23:36; 2 Kings 24:8; 2 Kings 24:18; 2 Chronicles 20:31-32; 2 Chronicles 22:2; 2 Chronicles 24:1; 2 Chronicles 25:1; 2 Chronicles 26:3; 2 Chronicles 27:1; 2 Chronicles 29:1; and Jeremiah 52:1 here we can see how the how each King of Israel is mentioned, and his mother as well. The mother played an important role in the kingdom. She held the title of Queen Mother. The King’s wife was not the Queen, as it was noted that the King had more than 1 wife
•1 Kings 15:13 and 2 Chronicles 15:16 He also removed Ma’acah his mother from being queen mother
•2 Kings 11:1 and 2 Chronicles 22:10 now when Athali’ah the mother of Ahazi’ah saw that her son was dead, she arose and destroyed all the royal family of the house of Judah. We see how the queen mother played an important role in the kingdom.
•2 Kings 24:12 the King Jehoi’achin and his mother surrendered to the King of Babylon
•2 Kings 24:15 And he carried away Jehoi’achin to Babylon; the king’s mother, the king’s wives
•Nehemiah 2:6 the queen was seated to the right of the King
•Psalms 45:9 seated to the right of the King is the queen (we already know that is the mother not the wife who holds the title of queen)
•Proverbs 31:1 The words of Lemuel, king of Massa, which his mother taught him:
•Proverbs 31:8-9 the queen mother told the King Lemuel, to give a voice to those who are left obsolete
•Songs 3:11 the mother of Solomon is who places the crown on him
•Jeremiah 13:18 God tells Jeremiah to tell the King and his mother, to step down from the throne
•Jeremiah 22:26 the King and his mother are kicked out of the country were they were born
•Daniel 5:10 even in the Kingdom of Babylon the king’s mother is queen
•Matthew 1:1-16 here we see how St. Matthew divides the genealogy of Jesus into 3 parts, the perfect number
•Matthew 2:1-12 the 3 wise men went to visit Jesus, the King of Jews
•Matthew 2:11 the wise men went to visit the baby (Jesus), and next to him was his mother (Mary), just as it was done during times of Solomon (see 1 Kings 2:19), Mary as the mother of the king was by his side
•Matthew 2:11 and going into the house they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshiped him. Then, opening their treasures, they offered him gifts, gold and frankincense and myrrh. When other kings went to visit King Solomon they also took him gifts, see 1 Kings 10:10 and 1 Kings 10:25
•Matthew 19:28; Matthew 21:5; Matthew 25:31-32; Matthew 27:11; Matthew 27:29; Matthew 27:37; Mark 15:2; Mark 15:9; Mark 15:12; Mark 15: 18; Mark 15:26; Mark 15:32; Luke 23:3; Luke 23:37; John 1:49; John 6:15; John 18:31; John 18:34; John 19:3; John 19:19; 1 Corinthians 15:25; 2 Timothy 4:18; Hebrews 1:3; Hebrews 8:1; Hebrews 12:2; Revelation 1:5; Revelation 5:6; Revelation 21:3 verses speaking of Jesus as King (if Jesus is King, Mary his mother is the Queen)
•Luke 1:28 when the Archangel Gabriel goes to Mary, he tells her, “Hail, Full of Grace”. The greeting that the Archangel Gabriel does is done with the mouth and the body. The person must say Hail, and place one knee on the ground with the right arm extended out with the head looking down in front of the King or Queen. In addition, when a person says Hail, the person names follows, as we can see Mary’s name is changed, as he says, Hail, Full of Grace, to see examples of this, let’s look at how the Romans treated Jesus, see Matthew 27:29; Mark 15:18; and John 19:3. If we see here, the Romans tell Jesus; “Hail, King of the Jews”. We also see that it was God who sent the archangel Gabriel, and that it was God who told him to give Mary the respect she deserve as queen, see Luke 1:26-27
•Luke 1:29 But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and considered in her mind what sort of greeting this might be. As a Jew, Mary knew that the greeting by the angel was only done to royalty that is the reason why she was troubled by his greeting. A second thing to note, she is not surprised or afraid when the angel presents himself to her, what worries her most is his greeting to her. The following are verses were a human comes in contact with an angel, and note their reactions when they come across the angel: Genesis 19:1 (Lot); Joshua 5:14 (Joshua); Numbers 22:31 (Balaam); Daniel 8:17 (Daniel); Tobit 12:16 (Tobit and Tobias) we can see that as soon as they realize that there in front of an angel, they immediately prostrate themselves on the ground, meanwhile in this situation, the angel is who greets Mary as royalty.
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Lochias
Guest
In the sense that the PV of Mary points more closely to the divinity and significance of Jesus Christ? Absolutely.
…not sure I understand this statement.
Denying an objective Truth is never healthy. There are those out there who don’t know any better…but as a former Roman Catholic, you do. Lessening the Holy Family in this way certainly can’t help anything along, and points to a lesser understanding of Jesus’ divinity.
God will not force us to accept any gift, and with His gifts come the understanding that making ourselves come closer to Him will involve much effort. The idea that one can simply sluff Mary off in this fashion is a dangerous trend, a trend that points ultimately to a disrespect for Jesus and all that he is.Christ’s death and rising from death gets us to heaven. Not believing in the PV of Mary. Does believing in the PV of Mary help or hurt? I believe it does neither.
Be careful, friend. As a brother in Christ, consider that an admonition. You’re on a slippery slope of your own creation.
C
chero23
Guest
pt. 2 to BVM being Queen Mother
•Luke 1:32-33 the angel Gabriel tells Mary that she will be the mother of the Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give him the throne of his father David
Mary understood as a Jew she would be the Mother of the King; and she also understood that she would play an important role in the Kingdom• John 18:36 Jesus tells Pilates that his Kingdom is not from this Earth. This means that his kingdom is in Heaven, and Mary being his mother, she is next to her Son as Queen.
•Acts 1:14 Mary is the only woman mentioned, when their picking a successor for Judas. The queen mother always played an important role in the kingdom.
•Revelation 12:1 here we see that the Woman in the Sky is clothed with the Sun, the moon under feet with a crown of 12 stars. As we can see Mary is the Woman, she is also Queen Mother.
As we see Mary is a Queen, because her son is the King, in the OT the Mother of the King was the queen. When Jesus came he spoke about his Kingdom (which is Heaven and the Church). In John when he is with Pilate, he tells him, my Kingdom is not here. So if Jesus Kingdom is in Heaven, then his Mother is right there with him.
Now let’s talk about Mary being sinless.
•Genesis 3:15 God tells the serpent that he will put enmity between him and the Woman. When one sins, were doing what the Devil wants, not what God wants, because sin does not come from God. If God said that he would put enmity between the Woman and the serpent, that means that Mary could not have sinned, because then that would make be a follower of the devil, and God clearly stated that he was going to put enmity between the Woman and the serpent.
•Exodus 25:10 the Ark had to be done with the purest of gold, remember that Mary is the New Ark of the Covenant.
•2 Samuel 6:6-7 and 1 Chronicles 13:9-10 Uza stretched his arm out to stop the Ark from falling. When he touched the Ark, God killed him on the spot. Remember Mary is the new Ark, and nothing impure can touch her.
•Job 14:4 who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? There is not one. Remember Jesus is as pure as can be, and he came out of the Virgin Mary
•Psalms 14:1-7 and Psalms 55:1-6 in these verses it is mentioned that the fools are the ones who don’t believe in god. This is the verse that Paul is quoting in Romans 3:23
•Proverbs 17:6 and the glory of sons is their fathers, Jesus as God, made his mother to his image, see James 3:9-10
•Song of Solomon 4:7 you are all fair, my love; there is no flaw in you.
•Wisdom 1:4 because wisdom will not enter a deceitful soul, nor dwell in a body enslaved to sin. (remember the Virgin Mary is a slave of the Lord)
•Matthew 7:17-18 So, every sound tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears evil fruit. A sound tree cannot bear evil fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Remember that Elizabeth tells Mary in Luke 1:42, blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. She had Jesus in her womb, and Jesus said that nothing good could come out of a good tree.
•Luke 1:6 Zechariah and Elizabeth were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. We see that here they are blameless
•Luke 1:28 the archangel Gabriel tells Mary, Full of Grace. When one is full of something, for example, love, hate, passion, anger, normally what that means is that nothing else can fit there because their filled with something. Same thing with Mary, she was Full of Grace.
•Luke 1:30 and the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.
•John 8:34 Jesus tells us that whoever sins is a slave of sin. Mary tells us that she’s a slave of the Lord, see Luke 1:38
•2 Corinthians 6:14-15 Do not be mismated with unbelievers. For what partnership have righteousness and iniquity? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? Let’s remember that Mary is full of grace, she has found favor with God, and she cannot be on the side of darkness as well.
•Romans 5:12 Paul says that through 1 man (Adam) death came to earth, if that is the case, why did Enoch in Genesis 5:24 and Elijah in 2 Kings 2:11when up to Heaven without dying
•Romans 5:14 Paul says a lot, not everyone were made sinners. Remember not every single person who has walked this earth has committed a personal sin. People with Down syndrome, some severe mental problems, infants who died at an early age, these people never did sin.
•Romans 9:11before they were born and made something wrong, God had already chosen them.
Here we have more than enough proof that Mary could not be on the side of Jesus and the devil 9b/c remember when we sin, were letting the devil in), so Mary could not be a slave of God an of the Devil.
•Luke 1:32-33 the angel Gabriel tells Mary that she will be the mother of the Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give him the throne of his father David
Mary understood as a Jew she would be the Mother of the King; and she also understood that she would play an important role in the Kingdom• John 18:36 Jesus tells Pilates that his Kingdom is not from this Earth. This means that his kingdom is in Heaven, and Mary being his mother, she is next to her Son as Queen.
•Acts 1:14 Mary is the only woman mentioned, when their picking a successor for Judas. The queen mother always played an important role in the kingdom.
•Revelation 12:1 here we see that the Woman in the Sky is clothed with the Sun, the moon under feet with a crown of 12 stars. As we can see Mary is the Woman, she is also Queen Mother.
As we see Mary is a Queen, because her son is the King, in the OT the Mother of the King was the queen. When Jesus came he spoke about his Kingdom (which is Heaven and the Church). In John when he is with Pilate, he tells him, my Kingdom is not here. So if Jesus Kingdom is in Heaven, then his Mother is right there with him.
Now let’s talk about Mary being sinless.
•Genesis 3:15 God tells the serpent that he will put enmity between him and the Woman. When one sins, were doing what the Devil wants, not what God wants, because sin does not come from God. If God said that he would put enmity between the Woman and the serpent, that means that Mary could not have sinned, because then that would make be a follower of the devil, and God clearly stated that he was going to put enmity between the Woman and the serpent.
•Exodus 25:10 the Ark had to be done with the purest of gold, remember that Mary is the New Ark of the Covenant.
•2 Samuel 6:6-7 and 1 Chronicles 13:9-10 Uza stretched his arm out to stop the Ark from falling. When he touched the Ark, God killed him on the spot. Remember Mary is the new Ark, and nothing impure can touch her.
•Job 14:4 who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? There is not one. Remember Jesus is as pure as can be, and he came out of the Virgin Mary
•Psalms 14:1-7 and Psalms 55:1-6 in these verses it is mentioned that the fools are the ones who don’t believe in god. This is the verse that Paul is quoting in Romans 3:23
•Proverbs 17:6 and the glory of sons is their fathers, Jesus as God, made his mother to his image, see James 3:9-10
•Song of Solomon 4:7 you are all fair, my love; there is no flaw in you.
•Wisdom 1:4 because wisdom will not enter a deceitful soul, nor dwell in a body enslaved to sin. (remember the Virgin Mary is a slave of the Lord)
•Matthew 7:17-18 So, every sound tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears evil fruit. A sound tree cannot bear evil fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Remember that Elizabeth tells Mary in Luke 1:42, blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. She had Jesus in her womb, and Jesus said that nothing good could come out of a good tree.
•Luke 1:6 Zechariah and Elizabeth were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. We see that here they are blameless
•Luke 1:28 the archangel Gabriel tells Mary, Full of Grace. When one is full of something, for example, love, hate, passion, anger, normally what that means is that nothing else can fit there because their filled with something. Same thing with Mary, she was Full of Grace.
•Luke 1:30 and the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.
•John 8:34 Jesus tells us that whoever sins is a slave of sin. Mary tells us that she’s a slave of the Lord, see Luke 1:38
•2 Corinthians 6:14-15 Do not be mismated with unbelievers. For what partnership have righteousness and iniquity? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? Let’s remember that Mary is full of grace, she has found favor with God, and she cannot be on the side of darkness as well.
•Romans 5:12 Paul says that through 1 man (Adam) death came to earth, if that is the case, why did Enoch in Genesis 5:24 and Elijah in 2 Kings 2:11when up to Heaven without dying
•Romans 5:14 Paul says a lot, not everyone were made sinners. Remember not every single person who has walked this earth has committed a personal sin. People with Down syndrome, some severe mental problems, infants who died at an early age, these people never did sin.
•Romans 9:11before they were born and made something wrong, God had already chosen them.
Here we have more than enough proof that Mary could not be on the side of Jesus and the devil 9b/c remember when we sin, were letting the devil in), so Mary could not be a slave of God an of the Devil.
A
aidanbradypop
Guest
Can’t the divinity of Christ stand alone?
My friend I do not lessen anything in the Holy Family. I can see some fundamentalist out there that do not want to give Mary any credit. They believe in doing so, you take away from Christ. I, however, do not believe that to be true. Proclaiming Paul or Peter as a saint does not take away from Christ.
But it is not a disrespect. I am sorry you are seeing it that way. I disrespect would be the totaly shutting out of Mary like many non Catholic Christians have where she is only spoke of at Christmas.
Lochias, my point is this…does believing she was a PV bring us closer to Christ and heaven? I would say no. We can know Christ without believing the Blessed Mother was an ever virgin.
C
chero23
Guest
this is a continuum to rbacia 5 questions.
Question 3, Mary’s Immaculate Concepcion
CCC #490-493
•Genesis 3:15 here we see that the Woman will have enmity with the Serpent. When someone sins, 1 is doing what the devil wants.
•Matthew 7:17-18; Matthew 12:33; and Luke 6:43-46 So, every sound tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears evil fruit. A sound tree cannot bear evil fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.
•Luke 1:28 the angel Gabriel tells Mary, Full of Grace. When someone is filled with something, nothing else can come in. In Romans 6:14, it states that sin has no power of them. Mary, is filled with Grace, she has no space for sin.
•Luke 1:30 Mary has favor with God
•Luke 1:35 the Holy Spirit will descend upon you (Mary) and the power of the Most High will lay upon you
•Luke 1:38 Mary tells the angel that she is a slave of the Lord
•Luke 1:42 Elizabeth shouted with happiness, saying, blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb
•Luke 1:47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior
•1 Corinthians 6:17 But he who is united to the Lord becomes one spirit with him. Remember that Mary carried Jesus in her womb
Question #4 Mary Perpetual Virginity
•Isaiah 7:14 the woman will be a virgin
•Song of Solomon 4:12 a garden locked, a garden sealed
•Song of Solomon 6:9 my dove, my perfect one, is only one, the darling of her mother, flawless to her that bore her. The maidens saw her and called her happy; the queens and concubines also, and they praised her.
•Ezekiel 44:2 "This gate shall remain shut; it shall not be opened, and no one shall enter by it; for the LORD, the God of Israel, has entered by it; therefore it shall remain shut
•Matthew 1:23 a virgin will bore a son
•Luke 1:27 God sent the archangel Gabriel, to visit a virgin, Mary
•Luke 1:34 Mary tells the archangel Gabriel that how could she have a child, if she knows no man
The following verses from the gospels of Luke and John, talk furthermore, about Mary’s virginity
•Luke 1:34 Mary says that she knows no man, same as John 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
•Luke 1:35 the Holy Spirit will come over you, and rest upon you, same as John 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
•Luke 1:35-56 and 2 Samuel 6 same as John 1:14 the word was made flesh, and lived among us
Verses of others maintain their virginity
•Exodus 19:15 Moses tells them to not have any relations before they go up to the mountain
•Acts 21:9 the 4 daughters of Phillip were unmarried
•1 Corinthians 7:8 Paul says that he never got married
Question 3, Mary’s Immaculate Concepcion
CCC #490-493
•Genesis 3:15 here we see that the Woman will have enmity with the Serpent. When someone sins, 1 is doing what the devil wants.
•Matthew 7:17-18; Matthew 12:33; and Luke 6:43-46 So, every sound tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears evil fruit. A sound tree cannot bear evil fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.
•Luke 1:28 the angel Gabriel tells Mary, Full of Grace. When someone is filled with something, nothing else can come in. In Romans 6:14, it states that sin has no power of them. Mary, is filled with Grace, she has no space for sin.
•Luke 1:30 Mary has favor with God
•Luke 1:35 the Holy Spirit will descend upon you (Mary) and the power of the Most High will lay upon you
•Luke 1:38 Mary tells the angel that she is a slave of the Lord
•Luke 1:42 Elizabeth shouted with happiness, saying, blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb
•Luke 1:47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior
•1 Corinthians 6:17 But he who is united to the Lord becomes one spirit with him. Remember that Mary carried Jesus in her womb
Question #4 Mary Perpetual Virginity
•Isaiah 7:14 the woman will be a virgin
•Song of Solomon 4:12 a garden locked, a garden sealed
•Song of Solomon 6:9 my dove, my perfect one, is only one, the darling of her mother, flawless to her that bore her. The maidens saw her and called her happy; the queens and concubines also, and they praised her.
•Ezekiel 44:2 "This gate shall remain shut; it shall not be opened, and no one shall enter by it; for the LORD, the God of Israel, has entered by it; therefore it shall remain shut
•Matthew 1:23 a virgin will bore a son
•Luke 1:27 God sent the archangel Gabriel, to visit a virgin, Mary
•Luke 1:34 Mary tells the archangel Gabriel that how could she have a child, if she knows no man
The following verses from the gospels of Luke and John, talk furthermore, about Mary’s virginity
•Luke 1:34 Mary says that she knows no man, same as John 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
•Luke 1:35 the Holy Spirit will come over you, and rest upon you, same as John 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
•Luke 1:35-56 and 2 Samuel 6 same as John 1:14 the word was made flesh, and lived among us
Verses of others maintain their virginity
•Exodus 19:15 Moses tells them to not have any relations before they go up to the mountain
•Acts 21:9 the 4 daughters of Phillip were unmarried
•1 Corinthians 7:8 Paul says that he never got married
E
eddie_too
Guest
what evidence exists that demonstrates that Mary gave birth to other children after the birth of Jesus?
the ONLY evidence the deniers of the doctrine of the PV possess is the misinterpretation of one verse in the bible. it has been demonstrated repeatedly that this verse could have at least two other interpretations.
one piece of evidence i provide is the fact that nowhere and at no time in christian history has the Church not taught the doctrine. irenaeus was a second century bishop of the Church. what he taught he had received from other bishops who had received their teachings directly from the apostles.
to accuse irenaeus of making up christian doctrines on his own and contrary to the teachings he had received from his bishop predecessors, and to make this accusation without a single piece of evidence or support or logic or reason, is scurrilous and should be condemned by all right thinking people.
perhaps this accusation against irenaeus was not made directly, but that is most certainly the implication of saying that the doctrine of the BVM’s PV was not received from the apostles.
the apostles and all the other members of the early Church in judea most certainly knew whether or not Mary bore children after Jesus’ birth. those who were teaching Mary’s PV had it not existed would have been anathametized by the early Church.
in fact, it would not even have been necessary in the early Church for the doctrine of the PV to be defined or even taught because all of the early christians knew from experience that Jesus had no blood brothers or sisters. there would have been NO questions about the doctrine because to the early Church it was a FACT. it is only several generations after the first generation of christians that we find ANYONE even speculating upon whether or not Mary bore children after the birth of the Lord.
the ONLY evidence the deniers of the doctrine of the PV possess is the misinterpretation of one verse in the bible. it has been demonstrated repeatedly that this verse could have at least two other interpretations.
one piece of evidence i provide is the fact that nowhere and at no time in christian history has the Church not taught the doctrine. irenaeus was a second century bishop of the Church. what he taught he had received from other bishops who had received their teachings directly from the apostles.
to accuse irenaeus of making up christian doctrines on his own and contrary to the teachings he had received from his bishop predecessors, and to make this accusation without a single piece of evidence or support or logic or reason, is scurrilous and should be condemned by all right thinking people.
perhaps this accusation against irenaeus was not made directly, but that is most certainly the implication of saying that the doctrine of the BVM’s PV was not received from the apostles.
the apostles and all the other members of the early Church in judea most certainly knew whether or not Mary bore children after Jesus’ birth. those who were teaching Mary’s PV had it not existed would have been anathametized by the early Church.
in fact, it would not even have been necessary in the early Church for the doctrine of the PV to be defined or even taught because all of the early christians knew from experience that Jesus had no blood brothers or sisters. there would have been NO questions about the doctrine because to the early Church it was a FACT. it is only several generations after the first generation of christians that we find ANYONE even speculating upon whether or not Mary bore children after the birth of the Lord.
E
eddie_too
Guest
Jesus is the Truth.
that is why the more we know and learn about the Truth the closer we become to Jesus and to heaven.
that is also why accepting the doctrine of Mary’s perpetual virginity is important. it brings us closer to the Truth and growing closer to the Truth is essential for our salvation.
the doctrine of the PV of the BVM is one element in the fullness of our salvation. but, eliminating elements of truth prevent a person from growing in and becoming one with the truth.
that is why the more we know and learn about the Truth the closer we become to Jesus and to heaven.
that is also why accepting the doctrine of Mary’s perpetual virginity is important. it brings us closer to the Truth and growing closer to the Truth is essential for our salvation.
the doctrine of the PV of the BVM is one element in the fullness of our salvation. but, eliminating elements of truth prevent a person from growing in and becoming one with the truth.
A
aidanbradypop
Guest
I disagree. Mary’s PV is not one element of the fullness of our salvation. The fullness of our salvation is Christ.
C
chero23
Guest
to rbacia question, about Mary being co-redemptrix. Remember that God, accepts the prayers and intercession of everyone. If I pray for you and your health, God is not going to say, I can’t take your prayer, only rbacia can pray for himself. I think that is something that protestants lack, they believe is just me and God and my bible and everything else is good. But they lack to see that in the entire Bible, in every instant, we see how people pray, or intercede for their brethren and God with all his Glory accepts their petition.
Ok, so lets talk about why she is co-redemptrix. Let’s go to the Wedding of Cana. We all know the verse, John 2:1-2:11. We see how Jesus and his mother, Mary (they are the only 2 people mentioned by name by the way). We see how Mary goes and tells Jesus, Hey they ran out of wine.
Yes, yes, I know some people say that Jesus disrespected his mother, but if he did, as a lot of these protestants say he did, then Jesus violated the 10 commandments, the Jewish law, and Jewish culture by disrespecting his mother. Jesus wouldn’t have done that because he is not a God of contradictions. Ok, so we got that cleared.
SO Mary tells her son, hey they ran out of wine, Jesus at first seems hesitant telling his mother, what is this for you and me. Then he says, I came to the will of the Father, and today is not my day to manifest myself. But Mary, being the momma said to the waiters, Go do as he tells. Jesus makes the water into the best wine ever. Jesus loved his mother so much, that he allowed her to be the one who start his ministry, by doing his first miracle.
If you think that Mary had nothing to really do, look at John 2:25, because he knew all men and needed no one to bear witness of man; for he himself knew what was in man.
So Jesus being God knew that the wedding reception had ran out wine. He’s God, he knows everything, yet he allowed his mother to intercede. God is a merciful, God is big, and for you to say that we don’t need to intercede for each other your taking away from his power.
Ok, so lets talk about why she is co-redemptrix. Let’s go to the Wedding of Cana. We all know the verse, John 2:1-2:11. We see how Jesus and his mother, Mary (they are the only 2 people mentioned by name by the way). We see how Mary goes and tells Jesus, Hey they ran out of wine.
Yes, yes, I know some people say that Jesus disrespected his mother, but if he did, as a lot of these protestants say he did, then Jesus violated the 10 commandments, the Jewish law, and Jewish culture by disrespecting his mother. Jesus wouldn’t have done that because he is not a God of contradictions. Ok, so we got that cleared.
SO Mary tells her son, hey they ran out of wine, Jesus at first seems hesitant telling his mother, what is this for you and me. Then he says, I came to the will of the Father, and today is not my day to manifest myself. But Mary, being the momma said to the waiters, Go do as he tells. Jesus makes the water into the best wine ever. Jesus loved his mother so much, that he allowed her to be the one who start his ministry, by doing his first miracle.
If you think that Mary had nothing to really do, look at John 2:25, because he knew all men and needed no one to bear witness of man; for he himself knew what was in man.
So Jesus being God knew that the wedding reception had ran out wine. He’s God, he knows everything, yet he allowed his mother to intercede. God is a merciful, God is big, and for you to say that we don’t need to intercede for each other your taking away from his power.
C
chero23
Guest
But if you start taking away from Mary, your going to sart taking away from other sections, and remember that Luke 16:10 says, whoever is faithful in the small is faithful in the big, whoever is unfaithful in the small is unfaithful in the big.
When you start saying things whether unintentionally, or intentionally and you start teaching wrong, your going to continue to do so, because you want to continue to see how far you can get.
A
aidanbradypop
Guest
Nice post.
L
Lochias
Guest
You can’t utter the phrase “divinity of Christ” without realizing that Mary is special above all women.
Awesome. Then why does proclaiming that Mary had no other children seem to stick in your craw?
I’m not trying to be mean or anything here, believe me. But there are various levels of disrespect, and the case could be strongly made that saying that Mary was not Ever-Virgin is an innate disrespect for who she was regarding Christ…and that, in turn, lowers who Christ was and is.
In this, I flatly disagree. Understanding Mary in the light of complete Truth is to come closer to God. It can’t be helped. It’s the nature of how things are.
“Knowing” and “growing closer and closer” are not the same thing. The less we understand (or the less we choose to understand Mary), the less we understand Christ. It’s a relationship that cannot be undone.
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aidanbradypop
Guest
I assume that could go both ways.
E
eddie_too
Guest
what part of Christ, His foot, His hand, His heart; or, His teachings, His actions, His origin, His genealogy, His death, His Resurrection, His Ascension do do you consider the fullness of our salvation?
does the Incarnate Word exist in some sort of vacuum that has nothing to do with what makes us all human, what motivates us all to act, what has lent itself in to becoming what we are?
some use the word Christ as though it is an incantation the utterance of which magicically transforms.
for me, on the other hand, when i refer to the Christ, i mean all that He involves and that involved Him. in heaven, we will possess the fullness of Truth. here on earth we only see the Truth as through a thin veil.
also, what about the sanctification provided by the Holy Spirit?
does the Holy Spirit have nothing to do with our salvation?
in kindness, maybe the writer who restricted our the fullness of our salvation to the word Christ as though our Incarnate Savior does not have a history, a life, a family, teachings, miracles and sacrifice was not writing as precisely as he had hoped?
does the Incarnate Word exist in some sort of vacuum that has nothing to do with what makes us all human, what motivates us all to act, what has lent itself in to becoming what we are?
some use the word Christ as though it is an incantation the utterance of which magicically transforms.
for me, on the other hand, when i refer to the Christ, i mean all that He involves and that involved Him. in heaven, we will possess the fullness of Truth. here on earth we only see the Truth as through a thin veil.
also, what about the sanctification provided by the Holy Spirit?
does the Holy Spirit have nothing to do with our salvation?
in kindness, maybe the writer who restricted our the fullness of our salvation to the word Christ as though our Incarnate Savior does not have a history, a life, a family, teachings, miracles and sacrifice was not writing as precisely as he had hoped?
- Status