perpetual virginity of Mary..T or F?

[Kliska]

to rbacia question, about Mary being co-redemptrix. Remember that God, accepts the prayers and intercession of everyone. If I pray for you and your health, God is not going to say, I can’t take your prayer, only rbacia can pray for himself. I think that is something that protestants lack, they believe is just me and God and my bible and everything else is good. But they lack to see that in the entire Bible, in every instant, we see how people pray, or intercede for their brethren and God with all his Glory accepts their petition.

Ok, so lets talk about why she is co-redemptrix. Let’s go to the Wedding of Cana. We all know the verse, John 2:1-2:11. We see how Jesus and his mother, Mary (they are the only 2 people mentioned by name by the way). We see how Mary goes and tells Jesus, Hey they ran out of wine.

Yes, yes, I know some people say that Jesus disrespected his mother, but if he did, as a lot of these protestants say he did, then Jesus violated the 10 commandments, the Jewish law, and Jewish culture by disrespecting his mother. Jesus wouldn’t have done that because he is not a God of contradictions. Ok, so we got that cleared.

SO Mary tells her son, hey they ran out of wine, Jesus at first seems hesitant telling his mother, what is this for you and me. Then he says, I came to the will of the Father, and today is not my day to manifest myself. But Mary, being the momma said to the waiters, Go do as he tells. Jesus makes the water into the best wine ever. Jesus loved his mother so much, that he allowed her to be the one who start his ministry, by doing his first miracle.

If you think that Mary had nothing to really do, look at John 2:25, because he knew all men and needed no one to bear witness of man; for he himself knew what was in man.

So Jesus being God knew that the wedding reception had ran out wine. He’s God, he knows everything, yet he allowed his mother to intercede. God is a merciful, God is big, and for you to say that we don’t need to intercede for each other your taking away from his power.

So, then anytime one of us asks Jesus for something, and He does it, that would mean we are all occupy the role of co-redemptrix?

 

[aidanbradypop]

You can’t utter the phrase “divinity of Christ” without realizing that Mary is special above all women.

I never claimed she was not special. She gave birth to God. That, in itself, speaks volumns.

Awesome. Then why does proclaiming that Mary had no other children seem to stick in your craw?

It doesnt. Like I said, I have no strong opinion either way. If one believes she was…GREAT and if one believes she wasn’t…that is fine with me as well.

I’m not trying to be mean or anything here, believe me. But there are various levels of disrespect, and the case could be strongly made that saying that Mary was not Ever-Virgin is an innate disrespect for who she was regarding Christ…and that, in turn, lowers who Christ was and is.

Nothing about Mary willl lower who Christ was and is. Christ is Christ.

In this, I flatly disagree. Understanding Mary in the light of complete Truth is to come closer to God. It can’t be helped. It’s the nature of how things are.

Then we must agree to disagree.

“Knowing” and “growing closer and closer” are not the same thing. The less we understand (or the less we choose to understand Mary), the less we understand Christ. It’s a relationship that cannot be undone.

You are placing Mary between Christ and yourself?

 

[PRmerger]

So, then anytime one of us asks Jesus for something, and He does it, that would mean we are all occupy the role of co-redemptrix?

No.

However, anytime you pray for someone, and that prayer is effective in the sanctification of another, then you have indeed become a co-redemtrix.

 

[chero23]

So, then anytime one of us asks Jesus for something, and He does it, that would mean we are all occupy the role of co-redemptrix?

No we are secondary interceders. Mary occupies that spot because she played an important role since Genesis 3:15. If I pray for a family member to get better, and God heals them, I don’t become a co-redemptrix, all I did was present my intentions to God through my prayer, therefore making me a secondary interceder… Like I said she (Mary) played a big role because God had her in mind after Adam and Eve ate from the tree.

 

[Kliska]

No we are secondary interceders. Mary occupies that spot because she played an important role since Genesis 3:15. If I pray for a family member to get better, and God heals them, I don’t become a co-redemptrix, all I did was present my intentions to God through my prayer, therefore making me a secondary interceder… Like I said she (Mary) played a big role because God had her in mind after Adam and Eve ate from the tree.

Yes, but then your previous post puts the emphasis on the wrong bit, IMO. I understand what you are getting at, but it wouldn’t follow that it made Mary “any more elevated” than anyone that can do the same. From a protestant perspective, I feel this at least explains it in a way that follows; forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=2725

Mary as co-redemptrix is a doctrine not a dogma. When explaining this term to your friend, make sure he understands that the Church does not teach (never has and never will) that Mary as Co-redemptrix is equal to Christ. “Co” is from the Latin “cum,“ meaning “with”. “Trix” is a feminine suffix, so the word means “the woman with the redeemer”—the woman with the one doing the act of redemption.

Just as Eve participated in the fall by her consent and pride, Mary cooperates with the redemption of man by her consent and humility as handmaid of the Lord. She gave Jesus his body, and his body is what saved us.

Lumen Gentium says,

1. Thus Mary, a daughter of Adam, consenting to the divine Word, became the mother of Jesus, the one and only Mediator. Embracing God’s salvific will with a full heart and impeded by no sin, she devoted herself totally as a handmaid of the Lord to the person and work of her Son, under Him and with Him, by the grace of almighty God, serving the mystery of redemption. Rightly therefore the holy Fathers see her as used by God not merely in a passive way, but as freely cooperating in the work of human salvation through faith and obedience. For, as St. Irenaeus says, she “being obedient, became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race.”(6*) Hence not a few of the early Fathers gladly assert in their preaching, “The knot of Eve’s disobedience was untied by Mary’s obedience; what the virgin Eve bound through her unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosened by her faith.”(7*) Comparing Mary with Eve, they call her “the Mother of the living,”(8*) and still more often they say: “death through Eve, life through Mary.”

1. Predestined from eternity by that decree of divine providence which determined the incarnation of the Word to be the Mother of God, the Blessed Virgin was in this earth the virgin Mother of the Redeemer, and above all others and in a singular way the generous associate and humble handmaid of the Lord. She conceived, brought forth and nourished Christ. she presented Him to the Father in the temple, and was united with Him by compassion as He died on the Cross. In this singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope and burning charity in the work of the Saviour in giving back supernatural life to souls. Wherefore she is our mother in the order of grace.

 

[eddie_too]

the title Co-Redemptrix for Mary is not a defined doctrine of the RCC.

however, this may partially be the case because the doctrine has not been adequately examined and defined theologically.

just as the Church did not substantially define the doctrines of the Incarnation and Trinity until hundreds of years after Pentecost Sunday.

i do not know the history of the term. does anyone else know of its first usage in an historical sense?

regarding the theological development of this doctrine, there is no doubt that God gave Mary a unique and essential role in our salvation and redemption.

does God making Mary a necessary person in our salvation justify giving her the title co-redemptorix? i would raise no objections. however, i am sure much more to the theology surrounding the title than simply Mary being chosen to have a unique and essential role in our salvation and redemption.

what more? well, this theology should take in to account the other Marian doctrines that the Church has promulgated and defined such as the Immaculate Conception, the Virgin Birth, the Queenship of Mary and her Perpetual Virginity.

 

[chero23]

Yes, but then your previous post puts the emphasis on the wrong bit, IMO. I understand what you are getting at, but it wouldn’t follow that it made Mary “any more elevated” than anyone that can do the same. From a protestant perspective, I feel this at least explains it in a way that follows; forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=2725

But what scares you of giving Mary the honor she deserves? Remember I think that its in Romans, it says Give Honor to were Honor is due. I don’t think God is going to get offended if you ask his mother for help, or if you give honor to his mother. God is not a little kid.

I just think it scares you to give Mary the honor she deserves.

 

[Kliska]

But what scares you of giving Mary the honor she deserves? Remember I think that its in Romans, it says Give Honor to were Honor is due. I don’t think God is going to get offended if you ask his mother for help, or if you give honor to his mother. God is not a little kid.

I just think it scares you to give Mary the honor she deserves.

I don’t see where you post flows from? I have no problem stating Mary’s role in the gospel, or calling her blessed. Fear is not a part of it.

 

[pocohombre]

It has less to do with sexual relations with Joseph and more to do with her being set apart for one thing: to be the Mother of God.

Sexual relations were of little import in her vocation as the Mother of the Word Made Flesh.

So it’s kind of like a little boy asking if he can bring his truck with him to the marital bed, once he is grown and married. He is so consumed with his truck that he doesn’t get that once he is married, his beloved truck will be of little import. It’s not a diminishing of the truck, however, but rather an elevation of something even more magnificent.

Again, not quite apples to oranges. To equate sexual union with Joseph as a “toy” relative to just spiritual union only. Still shows her sexual union to be a hindrance. Like the Father saying my Son will not be raised in the normal Jewish fashion, based on the One, True, Holy, Patriarchal Religion of the time. It also tells other mothers who have other children that the children are getting “less” somehow…What other pious things could Mary have been done ? Special fasting, shaving her head, cloistering, taking vow of silence with outsiders (things we know women do now to be fully given to God’s will and power) ? I am not making light of your point. It is a good one but minute compared to the biggy, that Jesus left his throne and became flesh .That is a million dollar event. Mary then being singly devoted to raising Him vs other children also is trivial in comparison.

 

[zz912]

You are jumping to conclusions. There is not one time where a living person asked a person who died to pray for them in the Biblical record.

There are two.

Rev 5:8 When he took it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones.

Rev 8:3 Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a gold censer. He was given a great quantity of incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the holy ones, on the gold altar that was before the throne. 4 The smoke of the incense along with the prayers of the holy ones went up before God from the hand of the angel.

 

[PRmerger]

Again, not quite apples to oranges. To equate sexual union with Joseph as a “toy” relative to just spiritual union only.

It’s not “equating” sex with a toy, poco.

It’s a parallel.

Still shows her sexual union to be a hindrance.

Well, ok. Just like thinking that one’s toy truck will be important in the marital bed.

 

[PRmerger]

Like the Father saying my Son will not be raised in the normal Jewish fashion, based on the One, True, Holy, Patriarchal Religion of the time.

Well, yeah. The Son wasn’t conceived in the normal Jewish fashion either.

It also tells other mothers who have other children that the children are getting “less” somehow…

Could you please 'splain what that means?

What other pious things could Mary have been done ? Special fasting, shaving her head, cloistering, taking vow of silence with outsiders (things we know women do now to be fully given to God’s will and power) ?

Don’t forget praying ceaselessly. I am sure Mary did that!

As well as offering her sufferings up for the redemption of the world.
And reading and meditating upon the Scriptures of the time.
And participating in Shabbat.

I am not making light of your point. It is a good one but minute compared to the biggy, that Jesus left his throne and became flesh .That is a million dollar event. Mary then being singly devoted to raising Him vs other children also is trivial in comparison.

Except you have no Biblical evidence that she attended to other children. That’s a man-made tradition you’ve been duped into believing.

 

[zz912]

Does believing in the PV of Mary help or hurt?** I believe **it does neither.

Note the key word here. Seems quite a bit to risk your eternal salvation over your own opinion. Makes more sense to trust the Church, which God Himself built and promised to always protect from error.

 

[aidanbradypop]

Note the key word here. Seems quite a bit to risk your eternal salvation over your own opinion. Makes more sense to trust the Church, which God Himself built and promised to always protect from error.

Does believing in the PV of Mary help or hurt your chances of getting to heaven?

My eternal salvation is in Christ…not a Marian dogma.

 

[Lochias]

I never claimed she was not special. She gave birth to God. That, in itself, speaks volumns.

That understanding should then carry forward. She gave birth to God. Let that sink in for a while. She gave birth to God. She gave birth…to God.

It doesnt. Like I said, I have no strong opinion either way. If one believes she was…GREAT and if one believes she wasn’t…that is fine with me as well.

It’s not always good to sit on the fence.

Nothing about Mary willl lower who Christ was and is. Christ is Christ.

Yup. But not understanding Mary can lead to ramifications concerning the understanding of Jesus. You, as a non-practicing Catholic, should know this already.

Then we must agree to disagree.

That’s unfortunate indeed. Remember to ponder: She gave birth to God.

You are placing Mary between Christ and yourself?

No, and I really don’t think you think I do. Let’s not play games, here. And remember that God willed that Mary give birth to Jesus, so if you’re going to indulge in pointless nitpicking, remember that God COULD have simply willed Jesus into existence without Mary at all. But He didn’t. Ponder that, too. God Bless.

 

[Lochias]

Does believing in the PV of Mary help or hurt your chances of getting to heaven?

My eternal salvation is in Christ…not a Marian dogma.

Lack of full understanding concerning the nature of Christ is the risk you run by denying the absolute truth of Mary’s perpetual virginity. Always remember that. And lack of understanding of Christ has already led you away from the Church. Remember that, too.

 

[pocohombre]

but you have NO verse that disproves it.

So long as you understand that non-pvers do have scriptural reference as does the CC for pv. Proof is also illusive to both sides. As others have said, there are evidences,scriptural and otherwise.

So, the place to begin discussion is with authority and infallibility. Otherwise, you have the cart before the horse

Understand. CC authority and infallibility is still not “proof”… I have opinionated this before, this PV and much Marian doctrine is where the cart (popular proclivity) led the horse, and still does (towards co-redemptrix and more).

 

[eddie_too]

denying Mary’s rightful place in salvation history is demeaning to Jesus Christ.

 

[Lochias]

denying Mary’s rightful place in salvation history is demeaning to Jesus Christ.

Exactly. It shows a lack of understanding of Christ, and a lack of faith in God’s plan.

God COULD have willed Jesus Christ into existence in the flesh without Mary…but He didn’t.

He chose to give us Christ…THROUGH Mary.

Hmm. Seems like a biggie, that one.

 

[pocohombre]

denying Mary’s rightful place in salvation history is demeaning to Jesus Christ.

as is any untruth,as PV teaching would be if untrue.