Perpetual virginity

[matthewadam]

My wife skeptically asked me today about Mary’s perpetual virginity and I gotta admit it’s got me stumped…

Aside from the church saying this was so, that Mary never had marital relations with Joseph, are there any other pointers to it?

As I research and pray over Catholicism’s unique beliefs I keep getting answers…and as far as Mary I think I get the Immaculate Conception and so forth. But this one to this point I find hard to grasp and/or find evidence for.

Why/was it necessary for her to remain a virgin? What does tradition teach about Joseph’s role in this…I mean, did he know he would never get to consumate the marriage etc?

No disrespect to Mary or Joseph or the Church intended.

From a protestant-raised man trying to understand…

 

[Peter_Dawson]

My wife skeptically asked me today about Mary’s perpetual virginity and I gotta admit it’s got me stumped…

Aside from the church saying this was so, that Mary never had marital relations with Joseph, are there any other pointers to it?

As I research and pray over Catholicism’s unique beliefs I keep getting answers…and as far as Mary I think I get the Immaculate Conception and so forth. But this one to this point I find hard to grasp and/or find evidence for.

Why/was it necessary for her to remain a virgin? What does tradition teach about Joseph’s role in this…I mean, did he know he would never get to consumate the marriage etc?

No disrespect to Mary or Joseph or the Church intended.

From a protestant-raised man trying to understand…

The explanation is this: When Mary became pregnant by the Holy Spirit, Mary and Joseph apprehended that something wonderful had happened between Mary and God resembling an intimate human relationship. Sensing that what had happened was profoundly holy, and that Mary was “God’s girl” in a profoundly holy way, Mary and Joseph felt that it would have been wrong for Joseph to make Mary his own in a sexual way.

So, they refrained from consummating.

 

[MarcoPolo]

My wife skeptically asked me today about Mary’s perpetual virginity and I gotta admit it’s got me stumped…

Aside from the church saying this was so, that Mary never had marital relations with Joseph, are there any other pointers to it?

As I research and pray over Catholicism’s unique beliefs I keep getting answers…and as far as Mary I think I get the Immaculate Conception and so forth. But this one to this point I find hard to grasp and/or find evidence for.

Why/was it necessary for her to remain a virgin? What does tradition teach about Joseph’s role in this…I mean, did he know he would never get to consumate the marriage etc?

No disrespect to Mary or Joseph or the Church intended.

From a protestant-raised man trying to understand…

PERPETUAL VIRGINITY - Mary is the New Testament type of the Ark of the Covenant (see obvious parallels in chart here). The Ark was not to be touched (1 Chr 13:10).

Another way to see it is Mary’s response to the angel who told her she would bear a son. “How can I since I don’t know man?” she says. Well, since she was about to be married, the obvious answer to her would have been because she’d bear Joseph’s son. But if she had taken a vow of chastity, then her question makes sense.

There are others who believe that the way Jesus entered the world (her womb) will never be crossed again by man:Ezekiel 44:2 And the Lord said to me: This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall pass through it: because the Lord the God of Israel hath entered in by it, and it shall be shut.

The “brothers” mentioned in Scripture are even from a cursory reading of the text, highly unlikely His fraternal brothers.

When someone asks you why Mary “needs” to be a certain way, you can simply say she doesn’t need to be anything. God doesn’t need her at all. He didn’t “need” 12 apostles either. It makes it no less true. It is of value however, to ask, “why” would God do this. Virginity is not only a sign of purity physically, but what is manifested physically often reflects an underlying spiritual reality in the language of God. For example, remember when Jesus healed the paralytic and forgave the man’s sins? Jesus showed physically (healed his paralysis) what took place spiritually (when He forgave the man’s sins). So Mary’s purity is a tremendous sign of Christ’s divinity. In another sense, Mary is the spouse of the Holy Spirit, for they brought a child into the world. And Scripture also tells us that the Church is the bride of Christ…and it also tells us that the Church is spotless, virginal before the Lord in order to be His bride (2 Cor 11:2).

 

[CentralFLJames]

One good argument for perpetual virginity comes from a pure common-sense perspective. Under Jewish Law is was unlawful and therefor sinful for a woman to have intimacy with anyone except with the one man who fathered her first or only child. Mary consented to the Holy Spirit in this and so she spiritually became betrothed to the Holy Spirit and became pregnant through this miracalous virginal conception. Catholic tradition also holds that Mary had a miracalous birth in that the child Jesus was born leaving Mary a virgin in the fullest sense and not changing her physical virginity in any way. So, Joseph and Mary were technically still obliged to the law to not have relations since Mary’s first and only child was not Joseph’s. As well, we can be certain that the couple were so astonished at what God was doing that they dared not even consider normal spousal conjugal relations. Also bear in mind that the Jews were expecting the Messiah and all the Jewish woman’s greatest hope was that they would be the one to be Messiah’s mother. So Mary would have an an unimaginable joy at being selected and must have suffered in keeping this knowledge to herself (we can assume circumstances implied that God did not want it revealed to the Jews yet or that she was privately told by God not to reveal it since it might have caused scandal). Joseph had to come to know the divinity of the child very soon too (the dreams mentioned in the bible) and we can also assume that Mary informed him or he personally saw what happened at the miracalous birth or came to see it in his foster son as he grew and exhibited divine qualities. Some traditions hold to a flash of light at the instant of birth and The Child suddenly appearing at her lap without the normal birthing pains or trauma). Joseph being honored as the chosen foster father and protector of The Child would have gladly submitted himself to his role as Mary’s spouse and protector - but only living as brother and sister.

Ezek. 44:2 - Ezekiel prophesies that no man shall pass through the gate by which the Lord entered the world. This is a prophecy of Mary’s perpetual virginity. Mary remained a virgin before, during and after the birth of Jesus.

Luke 1:31,34 - the angel tells Mary that you “will” conceive (using the future tense). Mary responds by saying, “How shall this be?” Mary’s response demonstrates that she had taken a vow of lifelong virginity by having no intention to have relations with a man. If Mary did not take such a vow of lifelong virginity, her question would make no sense at all (for we can assume she knew how a child is conceived). She was a consecrated Temple virgin as was an acceptable custom of the times.

There is a lot more scripture evidence for it here that refutes that popular Protestant error that Mary had more children. Also we can see writings from leadership of the early church who also all held that Mary was ever virgin.

scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html

James

 

[mchale]

My wife skeptically asked me today about Mary’s perpetual virginity and I gotta admit it’s got me stumped…

Aside from the church saying this was so, that Mary never had marital relations with Joseph, are there any other pointers to it?

As I research and pray over Catholicism’s unique beliefs I keep getting answers…and as far as Mary I think I get the Immaculate Conception and so forth. But this one to this point I find hard to grasp and/or find evidence for.

Why/was it necessary for her to remain a virgin? What does tradition teach about Joseph’s role in this…I mean, did he know he would never get to consumate the marriage etc?

No disrespect to Mary or Joseph or the Church intended.

From a protestant-raised man trying to understand…

I think the most significant evidence of Mary’s perpetual virginity is that the belief was present very early in the Church. In the early 2nd century there is even a book written that is now referred to as the Protoevangelium of James which attests to Mary’s virginity. In addition, Origen, in the 3rd century makes reference to writings by Ignatius of Antioch that seem to indicate that Ignatius believed in Mary’s virginity. Ignatius was a bishop in the late 1st and early 2nd century.

So, ultimately, within a relative few years of Mary’s death, there is evidence in the belief of her perpetual virginity. Now, if this was simply a belief that arose later, it seems unlikely that it would have gained much traction within the life time of some of those whose lives over lapped those of Mary. Rather, it seems, to me, that it was a belief that was possibly widely held but little spoken of in the first century of the Church. Only after the death of the Apostles and their immediate disciples, when doubts arose amongst those who had not seen was it necessary to articulate the belief in a formal way.

If on the other hand, the belief was not held in the days of the Apostles, I would have expected the Early Fathers to have rejected Mary’s virginity at first.

One last point, this is not a belief unique to the Catholic Church. Our Orthodox brothers and sisters also embrace this belief. Among the major Christian divisions, only the Protestants reject this teaching on Mary (along with most other Marian dogmas).

–
Bill

 

[VociMike]

IMO, the strongest evidence that Mary didn’t have children (as opposed to having marital relations, which only she and Joseph would know about, right?) is that after Jesus was crucified she went to spend the rest of her days in the home of an unrelated male, John.

Now, if Mary had other children (other sons in particular), would they have let her spend the rest of her days in the home of an unrelated man? And not just any man, but a leader in the very HERETICAL sect (according to Jewish belief) that had gotten their brother executed? The answer is obvious, and Protestants are forced to conjecture all kinds of strange excuses to explain this biblical fact.

Furthermore, if Mary had other children, would Jesus not have been greatly dishonoring her by sending her to live, not with her own children, but with an unrelated man? His mother who was grieving over her son’s brutal death, forced by that son to remain apart from her other children? WWJD?

 

[Doxiemom]

Mary had to remain a virgin so that her body could forever show the proof that Jesus was divinely begotten.

Some people have also suggested, and it does make some sense, that she is the personification of the people Israel who are to be the wife of God, as the church is the Bride of Christ. She remains pure to be God’s wife.

Sometimes, as catholics, we fail in going back to our Judiac roots to understand. But this being ever virgin would have a moral authority in it, based upon “thou shalt not commit adultry”. The first apostles would have understood this easily. And that is why it is part of “catholic” tradition that she is ever virgin.

 

[Peter_Dawson]

Mary had to remain a virgin so that her body could forever show the proof that Jesus was divinely begotten.

I disagree. Friend, I respect your love of Mary, but your perspective really is extremist.

I can’t be too clear in my criticism of your perspective, but your concern over Mary’s physiology strikes me as really, really “over-the-edge.”

 

[Doxiemom]

Actually, I have been accused for not being pro-mary enough!

But I do not understand why this seems extreme. If someone lost her virginity, how could she be seen as a virgin at the time of conception, no less at the birthing of Jesus.

Thank you. I look forward to your reply. it is of interest to me.

No offense will be taken.

 

[VociMike]

Actually, I have been accused for not being pro-mary enough!

But I do not understand why this seems extreme. If someone lost her virginity, how could she be seen as a virgin at the time of conception, no less at the birthing of Jesus.

Thank you. I look forward to your reply. it is of interest to me.

No offense will be taken.

The problem here, as I see it, is that nobody had or has any physical proof of Mary’s virginity. All we have, presumably, is her testimony to the fact, and perhaps that of Jesus. And such testimony, since it is accepted in this case, would also have been accepted if Mary had, after the virgin birth, had relations with Joseph.

I certainly do believe that Mary was ever-virgin, but I don’t think the reason was to provide some sort of physical proof of the virgin birth.

 

[CentralFLJames]

I certainly do believe that Mary was ever-virgin, but I don’t think the reason was to provide some sort of physical proof of the virgin birth.

Agree Mike. The proof is in the testimony of the Holy Spirit who has spoken on the matter through His Church. Anyone who is committed to the truth hears this truth because all truth is from God. Those who do not hear the truth are those who are not from God.

*Luke 10:16 – “He who hears you hears Me, and he who rejects you rejects me.” The leaders of the Church speak for Christ Himself.

1 John 4:6, “Whoever knows God listens to us, and he who is not of God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.” *

Non-Catholics and in particular doubting Protestants who will not listen to The Church on this matter should take these verses to heart. The bible “tells us” exactly how to know the “spirit of truth” from the “spirit of error”. Clearly the spirit of truth has already spoken on the matter in telling us that one must hear Christ’s chosen leaders and reaffirms in written word itself that the practice of picking up the Bible and trying to decide for ourselves all truth by what is written or not written in it is not the way to know all truth. No, quite the contrary, the Bible tells us that although the bible is profitable in matters relating to God and furthering our relationship with Him one must also listen to The Church leadership on matters too sublime to understand “by scripture alone”.

So, anyone that would dare to speak on their own against what The Church has settled to try to denigrate or dishonor the Virgin Mary’s reputation are themselves not biblical and are in fact living in a spirit of error. This spirit of error is not compatible with eternal beatitude. Rather than doubting the Church and dishonoring Mary in their unbelief and skepticism they should see for themselves that they are unchaste in what they permit to enter their minds and hearts. Such as these if they were children of God and were in possession of truth would know that Mary is their spiritual mother - the new Eve. If they were of the new Eve and not the old Eve they would know that they are to honor their mother and would be doing as all prior generations of God’s Children have done and “called her blessed” rather than impugned her honor. No one who dishonors the Mother of God, or the bride of Jesus (His Church) and does not atone and repent will ever enter heaven.

Mary’s perpetual virginity is self evident by the chaste company she keeps and in her highest honor bestowed in heaven and by the attestation of The Holy Spirit.

James

 

[matthewadam]

Thanks all.

Very interesting stuff. I’d never heard of the possible Ezekiel link…and Mary’s response to the angel is indeed food for thought.

God bless.

 

[matthewadam]

**One good argument for perpetual virginity comes from a pure common-sense perspective. Under Jewish Law is was unlawful and therefor sinful for a woman to have intimacy with anyone except with the one man who fathered her first or only child. Mary consented to the Holy Spirit in this and so she spiritually became betrothed to the Holy Spirit and became pregnant through this miracalous virginal conception. **

There is a lot more scripture evidence for it here that refutes that popular Protestant error that Mary had more children. Also we can see writings from leadership of the early church who also all held that Mary was ever virgin.

scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html

James

James, thanks ever so much for this too…shines another light on it for me. Appreciate your knowledge.

 

[VociMike]

James, thanks ever so much for this too…shines another light on it for me. Appreciate your knowledge.

The way I like to present the point made by James is to ask a question: When is it acceptable for a woman to bear the children of more than one father? Certainly when the first father dies, but of course God doesn’t die. Perhaps also when the first father abandons mother and child, but God never abandoned Mary and Jesus.

Also, Protestants will often argue that Mary and Joseph were entitled to a “normal” marriage, with normal sexual relations. But if there was ever a marriage in all of history that wasn’t normal, it was theirs. Bearing God Incarnate immediately takes “normal” off the table, as any person would hopefully agree.

 

[Ignatius33]

It is notable that the Church Fathers were unanimous in their belief that Mary was perpetually a virgin. If you want their perspective, I recommend that you read St. Jerome’s short treatise called “Against Helvidius: The Perpetual Virginity of the Virgin Mary.” It is available for free on NewAdvent’s website. In his treatise, Jerome basically uses the Bible alone to demolish his opponent’s arguments against Mary’s virginity. You’ll see that his opponent employed the very same arguments used by Protestants today (e.g., Jesus’s “brothers and sisters”; Jesus was the “first-born,” etc.). Jerome methodically debunks these misinterpretations. It’s a quick read – check it out.

 

[JustaServant]

Augustine Holy Virginity 6:6
That one woman is both mother and virgin, not in spirit only but even in body. In spirit she is mother, not of our head, who is our Savior himself?of whom all, even she herself, are rightly called children of the bridegroom?but plainly she is the mother of us who are his members, because by love she has cooperated so that the faithful, who are the members of that head, might be born in the Church. In body, indeed, she is the Mother of that very head.
As well concerning her perpetual virginity

Augustine Sermons 186:1
It was not the visible sun, but its invisible Creator who consecrated this day for us, when the Virgin Mother, fertile of womb and integral in her virginity, brought him forth, made visible for us, by whom, when he was invisible, she too was created. A Virgin conceiving, a Virgin bearing, a Virgin pregnant, a Virgin bringing forth, a Virgin perpetual. Why do you wonder at this, O man?

Augustine Holy Virginity 4:4
In being born of a Virgin who chose to remain a Virgin even before she knew who was to be born of her, Christ wanted to approve virginity rather than to impose it. And he wanted virginity to be of free choice even in that woman in whom he took upon himself the form of a slave.

This last part St. Augustine is very harsh about those who contradict and don’t believe in Mary’s perpetual virginity.

Augustine Heresies 56
Heretics called Antidicomarites are those who contradict the perpetual virginity of Mary and affirm that after Christ was born she was joined as one with her husband

 

[NHInsider]

I think it is not unreasonable to think that Mary and Joseph would have consecrated themselves to the service of the Lord in raising Jesus. In addition to the arguments about purity and vowed virginity, which tend not to resonate with Protestants, there would have been a very pragmatic aspect to this decision - childbearing was dangerous business!

 

[matthewadam]

The way I like to present the point made by James is to ask a question: When is it acceptable for a woman to bear the children of more than one father? Certainly when the first father dies, but of course God doesn’t die. Perhaps also when the first father abandons mother and child, but God never abandoned Mary and Jesus.

Also, Protestants will often argue that Mary and Joseph were entitled to a “normal” marriage, with normal sexual relations. But if there was ever a marriage in all of history that wasn’t normal, it was theirs. Bearing God Incarnate immediately takes “normal” off the table, as any person would hopefully agree.

More solid wisdom…my heart tells me you are right. Thank you.

 

[matthewadam]

I think it is not unreasonable to think that Mary and Joseph would have consecrated themselves to the service of the Lord in raising Jesus. In addition to the arguments about purity and vowed virginity, which tend not to resonate with Protestants, there would have been a very pragmatic aspect to this decision - childbearing was dangerous business!

Thanks NH…it sounds quite reasonable to me too.

 

[diggerdomer]

It is notable that the Church Fathers were unanimous in their belief that Mary was perpetually a virgin. If you want their perspective, I recommend that you read St. Jerome’s short treatise called “Against Helvidius: The Perpetual Virginity of the Virgin Mary.” It is available for free on NewAdvent’s website. In his treatise, Jerome basically uses the Bible alone to demolish his opponent’s arguments against Mary’s virginity. You’ll see that his opponent employed the very same arguments used by Protestants today (e.g., Jesus’s “brothers and sisters”; Jesus was the “first-born,” etc.). Jerome methodically debunks these misinterpretations. It’s a quick read – check it out.

Not unanimous, Tertullian for one was against it (way before Augustine and Jerome, and before his Montanist period).

It’s also important to reflect on what the THEOLOGICAL meaning of this teaching is (not just the biological).