A
Atreyu
Guest
First of all, I would like to describe my understanding of the Calvinist doctrine of “Perseverance of the Saints”. If my understanding is incorrect or lacking in some way, then please let me know. Here we go:
The Perseverance of the Saints means that once somebody has been justified, they are also “saved” and cannot lose this salvation. If someone “falls away” from the faith, then they were never justified in the first place.
Also in my understanding, the Catholic Church can agree with this but only with a very important caveat - that we can never lose our salvation once we have died, but we can however “lose our salvation” (that is, fall away from the faith) on Earth (via mortal sin which is another subject). This is why Catholics don’t really like to talk about who is “saved” and who is not; rather we talk about “being in the grace of God” or “possessing saving grace”.
The important point is that Catholics believe that this saving grace once gained can be lost and even regained. This is in contradistinction to the Calvinist view. The Calvinist says that saving grace can never be lost. It is the contention of this thread that this Calvinist doctrine must be rejected as it is clearly contradicted by the Bible. Namely, it is contradicted by the parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32) and by the Vine and the Branches analogy (John:15:1-17):
The Prodigal Son
In the parable of the Prodigal Son, a boy is living with his father (that is, God) in his father’s house. In other words, he is “saved” or possesses “saving grace”. Then, he leaves the father; that is, he leaves the faith. Then, in verse 32, the father explains to his other son: this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.
Now it seems to me that the only way that a Calvinist can accept this parable is to reject my interpretation that the son was originally “saved”. However, the fatal flaw of this explanation is when the father says the word “again”. That is, the son was dead but is now alive again. This means he was alive in the first place but then lost that life (that is, he lost his salvation). He then regained it. This is completely in-line with Catholic teaching but flatly contradicts the Calvinist doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints.
The Vine and the Branches
In this passage Jesus says:
5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned…”
Being a branch indicates that you are connected to Jesus. That is, you are “saved” or posses “saving grace”. However, these branches can be cut off and thrown into the fire. The branches are then no longer “saved”. Jesus doesn’t say that the branches were never branches in the first place, but that the branches themselves are cut off. And so this too contradicts the Perseverance of the Saints.
I would be very interested in any rebuttals to these arguments.
The Perseverance of the Saints means that once somebody has been justified, they are also “saved” and cannot lose this salvation. If someone “falls away” from the faith, then they were never justified in the first place.
Also in my understanding, the Catholic Church can agree with this but only with a very important caveat - that we can never lose our salvation once we have died, but we can however “lose our salvation” (that is, fall away from the faith) on Earth (via mortal sin which is another subject). This is why Catholics don’t really like to talk about who is “saved” and who is not; rather we talk about “being in the grace of God” or “possessing saving grace”.
The important point is that Catholics believe that this saving grace once gained can be lost and even regained. This is in contradistinction to the Calvinist view. The Calvinist says that saving grace can never be lost. It is the contention of this thread that this Calvinist doctrine must be rejected as it is clearly contradicted by the Bible. Namely, it is contradicted by the parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32) and by the Vine and the Branches analogy (John:15:1-17):
The Prodigal Son
In the parable of the Prodigal Son, a boy is living with his father (that is, God) in his father’s house. In other words, he is “saved” or possesses “saving grace”. Then, he leaves the father; that is, he leaves the faith. Then, in verse 32, the father explains to his other son: this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.
Now it seems to me that the only way that a Calvinist can accept this parable is to reject my interpretation that the son was originally “saved”. However, the fatal flaw of this explanation is when the father says the word “again”. That is, the son was dead but is now alive again. This means he was alive in the first place but then lost that life (that is, he lost his salvation). He then regained it. This is completely in-line with Catholic teaching but flatly contradicts the Calvinist doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints.
The Vine and the Branches
In this passage Jesus says:
5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned…”
Being a branch indicates that you are connected to Jesus. That is, you are “saved” or posses “saving grace”. However, these branches can be cut off and thrown into the fire. The branches are then no longer “saved”. Jesus doesn’t say that the branches were never branches in the first place, but that the branches themselves are cut off. And so this too contradicts the Perseverance of the Saints.
I would be very interested in any rebuttals to these arguments.
point out that what you are actually talking about is “Once Saved, Always Saved”, not “The Perserverance of the Saints”.
battle between a Calvinist and an Arminian, is a
“hit & run”…