Perseverance of the Saints

[cfrancis]

Well do you know anyone who ever “endured unto the end” who was never born again? Can you prove that those who have truly been born again have failed to endure unto the end? Give me one example.

Wow, you yourself stated

I affirm that God knows the heart, and yet that other people cannot be too quick to judge the professing believer (until their fruit becomes clearly evident).

Again, I may not have known whether they were saved or not.

However - this in no way means that another person can always know with certainty that I am truly saved.

You want me to do something you yourself said cannot be done? That’s your defense?
There are two cases here:

1. attempting to judge the souls of those who have died before us
2. attempting to judge the souls of those who are still enduring

We agree cannot do the first.
What about the second? Suppose this Sunday you arose and ask for a hand-count of all those who believe they are saved as you believe you are saved.
What percentage of the congregation would answer in the affirmative? 50%? 75%? 90% ?98%?

 

[sixofseven]

I asked whether all men are in Christ or not.

You said:

Does anyone here see this contradiction?

How then can all men be made alive in Christ - when not all men are in Christ?

Then you add - “not all will persevere.”

So you are basically saying one of the two:

1. All men are in Christ [because they have been made alive in Christ] but they will not endure unto the end.
2. Not all men are in Christ - because not all men persevere [making perseverance the inevitable outcome of being in Christ]

What is your position?

Are all men in Christ or not - I mean, you say NO - but then continue to claim that All are made alive IN CHRIST.

You are parroting the passage - and not properly interpreting it.

Does anyone see this - do any Catholics want to help their friend out here?

The proper way to interpret the passage is this:

ALL who are in Adam - die.

ALL who are in Christ - are made alive.

QUOTE]

You keep taking out the word ALIVE - all are alive in Christ - that does not mean all are in Christ.
Let’s think about eternal life.
Jesus died to take away our sin and in doing so destroyed death, the punishment for Adam’s Fall.
Could it be that to be alive in Christ means that because of his sacrifice, he has given ALL eternal LIFE - so ALL are ALIVE in CHRIST. So whether we endure to the end or not, Christ has given all eternal life - where we spend that eternal life depends on our physical life here on earth. Not all will perservere in living as Christ commanded, so they are not in Christ, but He has still given them eternal life.

 

[sixofseven]

Whosoever WILL may come.

This text is true, but it does not answer the question of who will actually be willing to come. This passage says nothing about the natural abilities of fallen man - but rather demonstrates that in order for a person to come, he must first be willing. So then, how does a person ever become willing to come to God - seeing how “there is none that seek after God” (Romans 3:11)

The Bible teaches that upon invitation - none are ever willing, and the universal invitation to the gospel is* universally rejected*. Therefore, in order for anyone to actually come, they must be *"made willing in the day of *[God’s] power" (Psalm 110:3).

"No man can come unto me except my Father who sent me draws [Greek: *elko,

literally: drags] him." (John 6:44)

“Through the greatness of thy power shall thine enemies submit themselves unto thee.” (Psalm 66:3; see Rom. 5:10; Col. 1:21).

Let me give you an example of how God brings people to salvation, and you ask yourself whether this lines up with your theology. Let’s look at Luke 14:

“A certain man made a great supper, and INVITED many: 17 And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, COME; for all things are now ready.”

Here we see a gospel invitation, and what is the outcome?

18 And they ALL with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused. 19 And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused. 20 And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come."

Just like I said: the gospel invitation receives a universal rejection. But does the Lord simply say, *“Oh well, I can do nothing more, for I must leave all men to their own free will.” *??

Well, let’s see.

21 So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and BRING in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind."

So now we see that the Servant - (The Holy Spirit) - went from “inviting” men to come, to actually “bringing” men in. This is very significant. And just so you do not claim that he only “brought” those who were already “willing” of themselves, the passage goes on to give another description of this “bringing.”

22 And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room. 23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and COMPEL them to come in, that my house may be filled." (Luke 14:16-23).

Obviously the Lord does not simply invite men to come, for when He does - men always reject the invitation. None are willing, for there is “none that seeketh after God.” Therefore God must bring and compel men to come. As in John 6:44, he must drag them, and as in Psalm 110:3 he must make them “willling in the day of his power.”

This is what God did to Lydia. He did not stand back and hope that she herself would open her heart unto the gospel, but rather, God moved in power and opened her heart for her. *“And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, so that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.” *(Acts 16:14)

“Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me and I in him.,” - Here we see there is a condition to be IN CHRIST and to be ALIVE.
In John 6 Jesus tells us this 4 times.

Many could not hear this and they left Jesus - those who had previously proclaimed their belief in His name (would they have considered themselves ‘saved’?). Did He go after them? Did He drag them? NO. He said to the twelve, ‘Do you also wish to go away?’ and Peter says, ‘Lord, to whom shall we go…you have the words of eternal life’.

The Eucharist is the supper, In John 6 Christ INVITES us to the supper and it was ready when Christ said, the night before he died ‘This is My Body…Take it and eat…This is My Blood…Take it and drink…Do this in memory of Me’.

The Eucharist is the greatest supper that we have been invited to.
The passage of the supper you have quoted says something very significant. The people who were invited made excuses, so the servant went out and got other people. Who? The poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind. I am reminded of, ‘come to me, you who are heavily burdened and I will give you rest’. I am sure that these are the people who would be willing to come.

 

[nbtb1348]

“Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me and I in him.,” - Here we see there is a condition to be IN CHRIST and to be ALIVE.
In John 6 Jesus tells us this 4 times.

Many could not hear this and they left Jesus - those who had previously proclaimed their belief in His name (would they have considered themselves ‘saved’?). Did He go after them? Did He drag them? NO. He said to the twelve, ‘Do you also wish to go away?’ and Peter says, ‘Lord, to whom shall we go…you have the words of eternal life’.

The Eucharist is the supper, In John 6 Christ INVITES us to the supper and it was ready when Christ said, the night before he died ‘This is My Body…Take it and eat…This is My Blood…Take it and drink…Do this in memory of Me’.

The Eucharist is the greatest supper that we have been invited to.
The passage of the supper you have quoted says something very significant. The people who were invited made excuses, so the servant went out and got other people. Who? The poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind. I am reminded of, ‘come to me, you who are heavily burdened and I will give you rest’. I am sure that these are the people who would be willing to come.

I think the problem is, you may not realize you have been invited to a supper much more life-changing than the Eucharist. The bread and the cup portray it, but it is the saving faith that appropriates the Bread of life, that brings you once and for all out of death and into life. This is why Paul says, “For by grace you HAVE BEEN saved, through faith…” When they asked Jesus, “What must we do to work the works of God?” He replied,** “This is the work of God, that you believe…”** That is far and away the most important thing a person will ever do, and it is the heart of Jesus’ meaning about “eating his flesh and drinking his blood”. He died to give us eternal life. If we don’t recieve Him and his salvation by faith (an event), we can take mass every day and it will do zero for us. I hope you understand this.

 

[nbtb1348]

Frontline;4671852:

All men are made alive in Christ. This does not mean that all are justified or saved.

You keep ignoring the crystal clear words of scripture:

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world

.
1 John 2:1-2

Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. Rom. 5:18

For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to **all.**Rom 11:32

Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.
John 12:31-32

For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so **all will be made alive **in Christ.
1Cor. 15:21-22

No one is made alive in Christ except the elect, His Church. You were born dead in your trespasses and sins, and you remain dead until the day you die physically, unless you repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. And you will never do that unless God graciously wakes you up and grants you repentance and faith. (See Acts 11:18)

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

CHESTERTONRULES;4671877:

No one is made alive in Christ except the elect, His Church. You were born dead in your trespasses and sins, and you remain dead until the day you die physically, unless you repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. And you will never do that unless God graciously wakes you up and grants you repentance and faith. (See Acts 11:18)

nbtb or the Bible, who to believe…:?

 

[nbtb1348]

What is your definition of DRAW in John 6:44?

The Greek word is ELKO - which means to DRAG

“And when her masters saw that the hope of their gains was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and dragged [elko] them into the marketplace unto the rulers.” (Acts 16:19)

“Simon Peter went up, and drew [elko] the net to land full of great fishes, an hundred and fifty and three: and for all there were so many, yet was not the net broken.” (John 21:11)

Did the fish in the net come of “their own free will” ??

Or did Peter simply DRAG them?

What is your definition of DRAG?

C.S. Lewis said he was dragged, kicking and screaming, into the Kingdom!

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

He replied,** “This is the work of God, that you believe…”** QUOTE]

Believe what?

That Jesus meant it when he said “This IS my body”

Keep in mind, by the time John wrote his gospel, he had probably participated in the eucharist dozens if not hundreds of times.

He knew exactly what he was writing, which is why he used the words that he did.

 

[nbtb1348]

Frontline;4671920:

ALL die in Adam, ALL are made alive in Christ.

It is the same group of people.

Just because we have been made alive in Christ doesn’t mean we will persevere.

It is up to us to follow God’s will with help of his grace.

Awww, come on! A man is made alive in Christ only when he believes. Is it any plainer than right here in Ephesians 2?..

*But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even **when we were dead ***in trespasses, **made us alive **together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 **For **by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Or here in Eph 1…
12 God’s purpose was that we Jews who were the first to trust in Christ would bring praise and glory to God. 13 And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, he identified you as his own[a] by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom he promised long ago.

 

[nbtb1348]

nbtb1348;4673886:

He replied,** “This is the work of God, that you believe…”**

QUOTE]

Believe what?

That Jesus meant it when he said “This IS my body”

Keep in mind, by the time John wrote his gospel, he had probably participated in the eucharist dozens if not hundreds of times.

He knew exactly what he was writing, which is why he used the words that he did.

" 29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." He didn’t say believe something about the Eucharist, He said what He said. Why do you refuse to let Him do that? This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
You’re obssessed with the Eucharist. Jesus is focused on His death on the cross and the life it brings to those who believe.

 

[nbtb1348]

nbtb1348;4673907:

nbtb or the Bible, who to believe…:?

I can’t imagine that you doubt that is what the Bible says there! It is so incredibly plain. Would you care to exegete that passage for me? (Talking about the Eph 1 and 2 passages above.)

 

[sixofseven]

CHESTERTONRULES;4673925:

" 29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent

." He didn’t say believe something about the Eucharist, He said what He said. Why do you refuse to let Him do that? This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
You’re obssessed with the Eucharist. Jesus is focused on His death on the cross and the life it brings to those who believe.

His death on the cross and the life it brings isn’t complete without the Eucharist! Christ is the new Lamb - just as the first Passover required the first born, male, unbroken lamb to be sacrificed, its blood sprinkled on the door, and eaten to ensure the families were saved from the Angel of Death so too must we eat the new sacrificed Lamb to obtain life and salvation.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

CHESTERTONRULES;4673912:

I can’t imagine that you doubt that is what the Bible says there! It is so incredibly plain. Would you care to exegete that passage for me? (Talking about the Eph 1 and 2 passages above.)

Let’s start with the verses you ignore or distort, which is what I was commenting on:

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 2:1-2

Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. Rom. 5:18

For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.Rom 11:32

Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw **all people **to myself.
John 12:31-32

For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.
1Cor. 15:21-22

 

[nbtb1348]

nbtb1348;4674000:

Let’s start with the verses you ignore or distort, which is what I was commenting on:

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 John 2:1-2

Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. Rom. 5:18

For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.Rom 11:32

Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw **all people **to myself.
John 12:31-32

For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.
1Cor. 15:21-22

So are you saying that everyone experiences the things in those verses, or that everyone is invited to experience those things?

 

[nbtb1348]

nbtb1348;4673980:

His death on the cross and the life it brings isn’t complete without the Eucharist! Christ is the new Lamb - just as the first Passover required the first born, male, unbroken lamb to be sacrificed, its blood sprinkled on the door, and eaten to ensure the families were saved from the Angel of Death so too must we eat the new sacrificed Lamb to obtain life and salvation.

Ah, how scripture clarifies:
“Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD,…For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.”
–Hebrews 10:11-14

 

[sixofseven]

sixofseven;4674055:

Ah, how scripture clarifies:
“Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD,…For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.”
–Hebrews 10:11-14

Why then would Jesus say ‘Do this in memory of me?’
1 Corinthians 5 …For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. Therefore let us keep the Feast…

 

[nbtb1348]

nbtb1348;4674154:

Why then would Jesus say ‘Do this in memory of me?’
1 Corinthians 5 …For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. Therefore let us keep the Feast…

Jesus said “do this in memory of me” EXACTLY FOR THAT REASON!!! To remember his death “til he comes”. We do it to remember that his body broken on the cross and his blood shed on the cross was what gave us life and by which we have salvation right now. But the Hebrews verse point out that he only had to do it one time, and the offering is done. He offered himself on the cross and “whosever believes on him will not perish, but have everlasting life”

He wants us to have that meal often! And with sincerity of heart! BUT, it is only for those who have ALREADY OBTAINED LIFE AND SALVATION, not as you said, “so too must we eat the new sacrificed Lamb to obtain life and salvation.” That, dear friend, is the critical difference.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

These verses are important. Please don’t ignore them:

John 15
9"As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love.

John 6
53Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth,** unless you eat the flesh **of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him.

Matt 28
19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to **obey everything **I have commanded you.

Luke 22
19And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This** is** my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.”

 

[cfrancis]

This text is true, but it does not answer the question of who will actually be willing to come. This passage says nothing about the natural abilities of fallen man - but rather demonstrates that in order for a person to come, he must first be willing. So then, how does a person ever become willing to come to God - seeing how “there is none that seek after God” (Romans 3:11)

Paul, in Rom 3:11, is citing Psalm 14. Paul, as we know, was Gamaliel’s top student, which speaks much about Paul. He certainly knew his OT, and I can’t believe the Holy Spirit would lead him to rip a verse out of context. So, what does Psalm 14 say?
1 The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God "
They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds;
There is no one who does good.
2 The LORD has ooked down from heaven upon the sons of men
To see if there are any who understand,
Who seek after God.
3 They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt;
There is no one who does good, not even one.
Yes, Paul was citing Ps 14; but wait! There’s more!
4 Do all the workers of wickedness not know,
Who eat up **my people **as they eat bread,
And do not call upon the Lord?
5 There they are in great dread,
For God is with the righteous generation.
6 You would put to shame the counsel of the afflicted,
But the LORD is his refuge.
Clearly, there are those who seek Him.

The Bible teaches that upon invitation - none are ever willing, and the universal invitation to the gospel is* universally rejected*. Therefore, in order for anyone to actually come, they must be *"made willing in the day of *[God’s] power" (Psalm 110:3).

Really? Universally rejected? Noah rejected God and didn’t build an ark? Abram rejected God and stayed put? Rahab rejected God? Can you provide any Scriptural evidence for God being universally rejected?

"No man can come unto me except my Father who sent me draws [Greek: *elko,

literally: drags] him." (John 6:44)From Strong’s:

1670. helkuo hel-koo’-o or helko hel’-ko; probably akin to 138; to drag (literally or figuratively):–draw. Compare 1667.

If we’re going by your definition, to “literally” be dragged, then we must apply that definition when we see the word in Scripture:
Jn 12:32
32"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw (helkuO) all men to Myself."
Jn 18:10
Simon Peter then, having a sword, drew (helkuO) it and struck the high priest’s slave, and cut off his right ear; and the slave’s name was Malchus.

Let me give you an example of how God brings people to salvation, and you ask yourself whether this lines up with your theology. Let’s look at Luke 14:
“A certain man made a great supper, and INVITED many: 17 And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, COME; for all things are now ready.”
Here we see a gospel invitation, and what is the outcome?
18 And they ALL with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused. 19 And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused. 20 And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come."
Just like I said: the gospel invitation receives a universal rejection. But does the Lord simply say, *“Oh well, I can do nothing more, for I must leave all men to their own free will.” *??

Well, let’s see.

21 So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and BRING in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind."
So now we see that the Servant - (The Holy Spirit) - went from “inviting” men to come, to actually “bringing” men in. This is very significant. And just so you do not claim that he only “brought” those who were already “willing” of themselves, the passage goes on to give another description of this “bringing.”

The word “bring” in verse 21 is eisago:

1521. eisago ice-ag’-o from 1519 and 71; to introduce (literally or figuratively):–bring in(-to), (+ was to) lead into.

The leap you make to say “bring” means the lame, blind, poor, do not have a choice is not supported by the verse. The verse in no way denies the lame, blind, poor have a choice. In fact, the parable itself speak to choice - free will. The lame, blind and poor, recognizing their need for food, shelter, even love, would definitely choose to come the banquet, for it’s more than they’ve received in their entire lives.

22 And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room. 23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and COMPEL them to come in, that my house may be filled." (Luke 14:16-23).
Obviously the Lord does not simply invite men to come, for when He does - men always reject the invitation. None are willing, for there is “none that seeketh after God.”

The fact that people responded, by their choice, to the invitation, without being compelled, the first time the servant went out means the invitation is not universally rejected.

 

[cfrancis]

This is what God did to Lydia. He did not stand back and hope that she herself would open her heart unto the gospel, but rather, God moved in power and opened her heart for her. "And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, so that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul." (Acts 16:14)

Again, Lydia speaks to the Catholic position, not yours. First, she already worshipped God, which means at some point, she had cooperated with His initial grace.
Second, as she heard the gospel from Paul, yes, God opened her heart so she would listen and hear the message. But the passage says nothing about God forcing her to then take the steps she did, or denying her free will to act upon what she heard.