Personal experiance VS. Scripture

[Soulewolf]

So the thread “why do you believe in God” got me to asking:
“What is a higher authority? Personal experience with Divinity, or Scripture?”

I’m mostly interested in opinions, and maybe a bit of insight as to how people who have had personal experiences with Divinity view the messages in scripture versus mainstream interpretation.

 

[davidv]

So the thread “why do you believe in God” got me to asking:
“What is a higher authority? Personal experience with Divinity, or Scripture?”

I’m mostly interested in opinions, and maybe a bit of insight as to how people who have had personal experiences with Divinity view the messages in scripture versus mainstream interpretation.

Would this be an appropriate definition of “authorty” when discussing this?

a. The power to enforce laws, exact obedience, command, determine, or judge.
b. One that is invested with this power, especially a government or body of government

Given this definition, neither experience nor Scripture has any authority.

 

[Soulewolf]

Naw. i mean it more in the context that if you had an experiance with Divinity that opposes your current understanding of scripture, which would an individual be inclined to believe more?

 

[antroji]

“Obvious knowledge and experience: knowledge, skill, or experience worthy of respect.” That is my sense of what you mean by authority, Soulewolf.

Your question resonates with me in that we are taught to believe that Scripture is equal to Divine authority in itself and through those who administer it in at lest two senses of that word. But given what I have come to understand, person, (what we refer to as “me”) is not involved in a genuine encounter with the Divine (I AM THAT I AM) though it is effected and informed by the encounter.

There is a class of such experiences recorded through history. In specifically Catholic history, I would put Teresa of Avila, Catherin of Sienna, St. Augustin, and Francis of Assisi in that category, along with a few more. On a much wider scale, there is literature about and indeed there are persons who are currently identifiable *by my lights *as ones who have had such experiences.

For my part I grant these people, by dint of certain qualifications, authority in the matter of speaking about* the Divine. So in my book experience trumps Scripture, and Scripture read by such a one trumps dogma and tradition.

(or “as,” a very misunderstood term in our paucity of English language comprehension of spiritual experience, as English has inherent incapabilities in this field)

More later if you wish.

 

[scottm]

Naw. i mean it more in the context that if you had an experiance with Divinity that opposes your current understanding of scripture, which would an individual be inclined to believe more?

I would believe both. I would grow. Mature. Rise about apparent discrepancies, into the level where they integrate. Evolve as a person.

 

[Victorious]

Naw. i mean it more in the context that if you had an experiance with Divinity that opposes your current understanding of scripture, which would an individual be inclined to believe more?

That’s why we have the Deposit of Faith, and the Magisterium of the Church: so that we have an infallible yardstick of truth against which to measure our experiences and our understanding.

 

[fhansen]

The Beatific Vision, the goal of a Christian, is a term for a direct experience. Virtually everything about our faith, our notions, our imaginings here on earth will seem “like straw”, to quote St Thomas, when we then “see face to face”. Our faith gives us knowledge about God, pointing the way, but to know Him first-hand, to experience God, is the end-purpose of mankind. OTOH, while experience is the goal, experiences or private revelations in this life may or may not be valid.

 

[scottm]

Beatific vision is one type of direct experience. There are others. By definition, to be a Christian means to have the Holy Spirit. If you don’t have the Holy Spirit then you’re not a Christian. Well, how is being a Christian not direct experience of God?

 

[Vico]

So the thread “why do you believe in God” got me to asking:
“What is a higher authority? Personal experience with Divinity, or Scripture?”

I’m mostly interested in opinions, and maybe a bit of insight as to how people who have had personal experiences with Divinity view the messages in scripture versus mainstream interpretation.

When we are having a personal experience, we may understand with a different perspective than we do afterwards, as the elevated state does not remain with us. As a result we cannot judge in our ordinary state as we could when elevated. We also need to know that visions, sounds, feeling of expansion or floating, or out of the body experiences, as many have had, do not sanctify us. Mere phenomenon has as much importance as a dream, although it may strengthen our belief. Those experiences may be extremely difficult to express in words. One proof of authenticity is that our lives are changed to be more in conformance to the life of Christ (Theosis), and filled with the peace of Christ (which may be accompanied with a joy), and strengthen in us control of our passions.

 

[Tuno]

…how is being a Christian not direct experience of God?

When you think it is.

 

[Tuno]

We also need to know that visions, sounds, feeling of expansion or floating, or out of the body experiences, as many have had, do not sanctify us. Mere phenomenon has as much importance as a dream, although it may strengthen our belief.

Spot on.

 

[Soulewolf]

Well i’ve had direct experience with an entity i can only call Divine. This experience has brought forth a different understanding of spirituality (at least in comparison to more mainstream beliefs). It does not directly oppose scripture, but it does directly oppose current mainstream interpretations of scripture.

And i agree. When you experience divinity, or at least when i did, everything else seemed… unreal. The only thing that i can say felt real, was Divinity itself.

Through my personal understanding of Divinity, due to its infinite nature, and the different paradigms of individuals, it is inevitable that a person would have a Divine experience that differs from mainstream interpretations of scripture, which is why i ask this question.

 

[antroji]

The difference between “personal” experience, or direct experience, and reliance on Scriptures, is an ancient theme. You, Soulewolf, might enjoy something called Love Poems from God. It sounds in twelve voices; six are from the Catholic tradition, and six not. The works range from weepingly beautiful to slam dunk hilarious. But some of them deal with exactly what you are saying, It’s not in there, but there is a story of a Zen Master who, upset with his student’s responses, destroyed the sutra he was reading from. An interesting exchange followed, leading to a unique realization.

At any rate, your perception of person fading out and only Divinity remaining is a hallmark, as far as I know, of a genuine experience.

 

[Soulewolf]

So ive seen some pretty interesting answers so far.

I guess my next question is, how has your interpretation of Scripture changed after experiencing Divinity, for those of you who believe they have had… “Beautific Vision” is it?

 

[fhansen]

So ive seen some pretty interesting answers so far.

I guess my next question is, how has your interpretation of Scripture changed after experiencing Divinity, for those of you who believe they have had… “Beautific Vision” is it?

The Beatific Vision is the end purpose of man and I only meant that as the supreme example of a direct spiritual experience. However, God can and does grant glimpses of that vision-as well as other experiences- to people here on earth for His purposes.

In my case, the experience served to bolster what I already believed-but to make it “more real” or, well, directly intuitive. It did not make me anti-dogmatic. It has, however helped to mold me and my perception of God in certain ways, I believe, that would be less accessible otherwise.

For example, my understanding of the phrase, “God is love”, took on an immensely fresh and greater meaning but it has also continued to grow since then, the experience always playing an important behind-the-scenes role to this day.

 

[scottm]

I guess my next question is, how has your interpretation of Scripture changed after experiencing Divinity, for those of you who believe they have had… “Beautific Vision” is it?

I thought you had to die and go to heaven to have the “beatific vision.” Isn’t it when you see God through the light surrounding God and actually see Him, face-to-face?

 

[Vico]

I thought you had to die and go to heaven to have the “beatific vision.” Isn’t it when you see God through the light surrounding God and actually see Him, face-to-face?

It’s more perfect in heaven due to the light of glory.

Council of Vienne 1311-1312 on The Errors of the Beghards and the Beguines (the State of Perfection) include:

474 4. That man can so attain final beatitude according to every degree of perfection in the present life, as he will obtain it in the blessed life.

475 5. That any intellectual nature in its own self is naturally blessed, and that the soul does not need the light of glory raising it to see God and to enjoy Him beatifically.

Source, Denzinger:
catecheticsonline.com/SourcesofDogma5.php

 

[Soulewolf]

For example, my understanding of the phrase, “God is love”, took on an immensely fresh and greater meaning but it has also continued to grow since then, the experience always playing an important behind-the-scenes role to this day.

oh i know. it was amazing for me when i had my experiance. It changed my view of love as an emotion to “Love” as more of a divine essence.

It also opened my eyes to new paradigms of spirituality through Buddhism, Judaism, Islam, and many other religions that try to describe the same things just in different languages.

 

[Tuno]

Yes, Soulewolf. it is not uncommon that such a realization as yours pend the eyes to the esoteric connectivity between faiths. It is in the exoteric faith realm that these connections are not seen.

 

[scottm]

It’s more perfect in heaven due to the light of glory.

Council of Vienne 1311-1312 on The Errors of the Beghards and the Beguines (the State of Perfection) include:

474 4. That man can so attain final beatitude according to every degree of perfection in the present life, as he will obtain it in the blessed life.

475 5. That any intellectual nature in its own self is naturally blessed, and that the soul does not need the light of glory raising it to see God and to enjoy Him beatifically.

Oh, okay. I wasn’t aware of those lesser definitions. Reminds me of “theosis” or “deification.”

Well then, Soulewolf, how has my interpretation of Scripture changed after experiencing Divinity … hmm. I’m not a Baptist anymore. I’m not even a Protestant anymore. I realize now, after the experience, in a living way that transcends intellectual understanding, that it doesn’t matter whether we interpret the first few chapters of Genesis literally or not. The Christianity of fundamentalists such as my former Baptist pastor completely breaks down if we don’t interpret Genesis a certain way, but the religion of Christianity itself does not break. The religion itself is much, much bigger than the so-called “Christianity” of my former pastor.

It’s also much bigger than that of the typical Roman Catholic on this forum. The typical Roman Catholic on this forum can’t handle Orthodoxy, for example, because the idea that there were 11 other Apostles commissioned by Jesus destroys their version of Christianity. Poof, it blows up, in the very same way that a non-literal reading of Genesis destroys the Christianity of my former pastor. But I can handle Orthodoxy. I comprehend both sides of the split. I can see where both sides are wrong and where both sides are right, and steer myself appropriately. I can be a genuine Catholic and a genuine Orthodox Christian at the same time. I can be a genuine Baptist for that matter. I “get it.” I understand everybody.

I used to think, based on divisive versus such as John 14:6, that all non-Christians were going to hell, period, full stop. I don’t believe that anymore. There is a way to interpret John 14:6 to allow non-Christians into heaven. Before my, ahem, “beatific vision,” I couldn’t believe that. I deemed it heresy and I denied it up and down. I preached against it, in fact. But I’m different now.

After my “beatific vision” or whatever, I stepped outside the boundaries of individual churches. In an experiential way, in a way that transcends intellectual comprehension, I understand how disparate religions can be the same. Islam can be the same as Christianity, and vice versa. Buddhism can be the same as Christianity, and vice versa. Very few people make it such. Almost everybody, on every side, practices religion in a way that forbids unity. Calvinists don’t even get along with Lutherans or Methodists, for crying out loud! But I know now, and did not know before, how to transcend differences between Christian groups, and between Christianity and other religions. I can chapter-and-verse my way through a proof of this now, whereas before I would have sworn it couldn’t be done.

Meh, whatever. It’s not really something that I can explain well.