Personal interpretation clause

[PJM]

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Originally Posted by BereanRuss
If the flesh and the blood of Christ are made available to the believer only by the work of the priest, then only those in the RCC can be saved. Not even the RCC believes this.

The RCC believes that Jews, Muslims, Protestants and others can be saved without eating the flesh of the Son of Man. The words of Jesus are very clear here. Why don’t you believe Him?

The reply:
Your understanding of what the Church teaches leaves much to be desired

My added comments:

Please allow me to al least try to sort out Catholic Teaching for you.

1. One does not Have to be a Catholic to be saved.
2. Catholic Holy Communion, because it really is the Same Jesus born in Bethleham, is the most important reason to become a Catholic. Not a sign, not a symbol, but Jesus. (Jn. 6;40-60)
3. Catholic Holy Communion is

The Gift From God (Father)
Of God (Jesus His Son who too is God)
To God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit!)

1. The role of the priest is unique in that it is a miracle within a Greater Miracle.

It is God Himself that makes Jesus (God) present. The priest at the very instant of the Transubstaniation is made-into “another Christ” / the “very person of Christ” for an instant, the time necessary for the transformation from bread to Body, from wine to Christ Blood (we speak here of the Risen Glorified Body of Jesus)

1. We Catholics beleive that The Mass, The Sacred Liturgy / The Eucharist is “the sum and the summit” of our Catholic Faith, because it is Christ Himself.

HOWEVER we do NOT teach, or hold as true that one “MUST” receive Catholic Holy Communion in order to be “saved.” Having shared this, we also hold that there is NO GREATER source of grace available to humanity than Catholic Holy Communion received worthily!

And friend, what words of Jesus would you have me believe?

 

[NHInsider]

**Ephisians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God;

9 it is not from works, so no one may boast.

10 For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them.**

v8. tells us how we are saved and where salvation comes from, a gift from God.
v9. perfectly clear that is not of works, any kind of work that we won’t say, ‘look at me.’
v10. we are God’s work, created in Christ ‘to do the good works’ that God has prepared for to live in them.

my friends, faith is first without it you glorify yourself a good example would be , ms oprah, she does plenty of work do you think that she is heaven bound?

God bless you all

No, look again at the passage you quoted! Faith is not first-grace is first. God reaches out to us, we respond!

 

[BereanRuss]

Now, as I’ve stated before, you cannot separate faith from works. It is faith AND works.

If you are speaking about works of love such as loving our neighbor or visiting those who are sick or in prison or feeding the hungry, I will not argue with you.

But if you are saying that the work of the priest is required in addition to the work of Jesus on the cross, you are ignoring huge sections of scripture and you are preaching another gospel.

And in fact this is exactly what you are saying for the priest is absolutely necessary or no person, Catholic or none Catholic, can be saved.

The minute you attempt to add man’s work to the work of Jesus on the cross you deny gospel and you fall from grace. You cannot ignore Paul simply by quoting James. You must reconcile both Paul and James.

 

[BereanRuss]

Then why is their such a thing as “sin?” Why did God give us the 10 Commandments and insist we follow them? Not only is your position not biblical, it seems to lack common sense.

I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.

If you insist that we are saved by keeping the Ten Commandments, you are saying the Jesus died in vain according to Paul. You cannot ignore Paul simply by quoting James. You must reconcile both Paul and James.

 

[BereanRuss]

While we are bound to the sacraments, God is not.

Jesus is bound to His word. He cannot lie and His word is truth.

For You have magnified Your word above all Your name. [Ps 138:2]

You are either spiritualizing what Jesus said or you are flat our denying what He said when you say that Jews and others can be saved without eating His body and drinking His blood made available only by the work of the priest. Please explain how you can accuse protestants of not obeying Jesus’ word when you do not believe it yourself.

 

[BereanRuss]

…we do NOT teach, or hold as true that one “MUST” receive Catholic Holy Communion in order to be “saved.”

Jesus said, “Amen, amen…” How many times must he say “amen” before you will believe Him? According to the very words of Jesus only those who eat His body and drink His blood have life. And, according to the RCC the only place that His body and blood are made available to mankind is within the RCC by the work of the priest. How then is anyone outside the RCC saved if both the words of Jesus and the words of the RCC are true?

 

[BereanRuss]

No, look again at the passage you quoted! Faith is not first-grace is first. God reaches out to us, we respond!

I agree! What then does Paul mean when He says, “Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?”

If we are saved by grace, why do we need the work of the priest to remain saved? This is foolishness according to Paul.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Brad,

I am sorry I was not clearer. I did not intend to say that David never offered any sacrifices. Of course David offered sacrifices just as you pointed out. What I meant to say that He did not offer a sacrifice as part of his repentance after committing adultery with Bathsheba. That is the subject of Psalm 51 from which I quoted.

My question remains, If Catholicism is not based on works, what need is there for the priest?

To administer or witness the sacraments that Jesus established for the Church. And this is evident from scripture:

Articles Explaining and Defending the Priesthood

Here are several articles that explain and defend the Catholic Priesthood. The authors are converts to the Catholic faith, and at one time, they would have denied that the Priesthood was established as necessary by Jesus.

Why We Have a Ministerial Priesthood
By Tim Staples
catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0503fea4.asp

Did Jesus Give Priests to the Church?
By Kenneth J. Howell
catholic.com/thisrock/2004/0404sbs.asp

The Office of New Testament Priest
by James Akin
cin.org/users/james/files/ntpriest.htm

**THE THREE-FOLD MINISTRY **
By James Akin
catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9806chap.asp

Bishop, Priest and Deacon
catholic.com/library/Bishop_Priest_and_Deacon.asp

The Priesthood Debate
By James Akin
ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/PRIEST3.HTM

 

[bradwill911]

If you are speaking about works of love such as loving our neighbor or visiting those who are sick or in prison or feeding the hungry, I will not argue with you.

But if you are saying that the work of the priest is required in addition to the work of Jesus on the cross, you are ignoring huge sections of scripture and you are preaching another gospel.

And in fact this is exactly what you are saying for the priest is absolutely necessary or no person, Catholic or none Catholic, can be saved.

The minute you attempt to add man’s work to the work of Jesus on the cross you deny gospel and you fall from grace. You cannot ignore Paul simply by quoting James. You must reconcile both Paul and James.

I can explain it over and over again, but it falls on deaf ears. You don’t agree with Catholic theology, I get it. You have skipped answering questions for the sake of making additional accusations. I’ve had plenty of debates with Protestants that have followed this similar path. “You worship Mary!” “No we don’t, let me explain…” “Yes you do, regardless of what you say, you worship Mary!” I tried to illustrate your approach in an earlier post, but it apparently didn’t work. Let me demonstrate what you are doing and how you are arguing:

“You are ignoring what Jesus has told us to do and what history has demonstrated is the correct understanding of the Gospel. You are ignoring huge sections of Scripture (even removing books from Scripture) to support your own opinions and interpretations. You are preaching another gospel. You cannot ignore James simply by quoting Paul. You must reconcile both James and Paul.”

I can make this argument with you and no matter how you reply I will just restate this same argument. It’s not an effective strategy. I have provided Scripture to support the CC’s position, I have provided CCC references as well as quoted a Catholic theologian. If you do not believe that the CC is what we claim it is, that’s your opinion. If you believe we are adding to Christ’s cross or that our faith is in our works, you misrepresent and misunderstand the Catholic faith.

 

[BereanRuss]

Here are several articles that explain and defend the Catholic Priesthood. The authors are converts to the Catholic faith, and at one time, they would have denied that the Priesthood was established as necessary by Jesus.

I am not interested in reading articles. I am interested reasoning the scriptures. You are certainly welcome to bring out the major points from the articles in your posts.

 

[BereanRuss]

You have skipped answering questions for the sake of making additional accusations.

Please bring these questions up again. I am attempting to answer many comments from numerious people. I may have missed some of your questions.

 

[Jerry_Marino]

round and round we go, i am dizzy.

works and faith or is faith and works?

you guys, i love you all.

God Bless.

 

[PJM]

=BereanRuss;5032578]The work of the pastor is not necessary. We are blessed with many pastors here in the US but there are many small fellowships even in the US and abroad that meet in homes and do not have a pastor. Naturally, some will rise up and assume leadership roles.

My dear friend in Christ,

If you are speaking of a Catholic “Pastor” they are not simply “necessary” without them their would be no Catholic Church and No Sacraments.

**Luke 22:14 And when the hour came, he sat at table, and the apostles with him. 15 And he said to them, “I have earnestly desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer; 16 for I tell you I shall not eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.” 17And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he said, “Take this, and divide it among yourselves; 18 for I tell you that from now on I shall not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.” 19 And he took bread, and when he had given thanks he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “**This is my body which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” ****(Picture) 20 And likewise the cup after supper, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood. *

Mt. 16: 1" And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death * shall not prevail against it. 19** I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven,** *and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”/*COLOR]

John 20: "21Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you." 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”
**
No priest = no Jesus = no Church= No Salvation!**

And that friends is what we call “necessary!”

 

[PJM]

If you are speaking about works of love such as loving our neighbor or visiting those who are sick or in prison or feeding the hungry, I will not argue with you.

We agree on this point.

But if you are saying that the work of the priest is required in addition to the work of Jesus on the cross, you are ignoring huge sections of scripture and you are preaching another gospel.

No in the sense you seem to imply here again your right.

Salvation has to be worked out in, with and through Christ, manifested in Good Works.

However, Catholics have some advantages non-catholics do not have in working out their individual salvation, and it is the Seven sacraments all instituted by CHRIST to provide extra
GRACE to aid us in salvation.

Most notabally The Eucharsit ( The GIFT of JESUS HIMSELF) and the Sacrament of Known Forgiveness (Jn. 20:21-23. Mt.16:18-20).

These two Sacramnets and the Annointing of the Sick only a priest has the PERSONAL and BIBLICAL MANDATE from Jesus Himself, to perform.

And in fact this is exactly what you are saying for the priest is absolutely necessary or no person, Catholic or none Catholic, can be saved.

I know that I am entering into an ongoing converstation, but your statement is not the position of the Catholic Church. For example, we neither teach or believe that one MUST be a Catholic to be saved.

The minute you attempt to add man’s work to the work of Jesus on the cross you deny gospel and you fall from grace. You cannot ignore Paul simply by quoting James. You must reconcile both Paul and James.

Friend if you’d like I can reconcile “works” by Pauls own words. But I fear your not understanding what Paul is saying “about the works of the law.” He is speaking here of an OLD Covenant, Old Testament expansion of the 10 Commandments to what was then over 600 seperate and binding laws.

Read:Luke 22:14-20 especilly verse 20, Read Rom.6:12-15, Read John 3:5, Read Mt.19:17… and their are oh so many more I could bring to your attention.

*Romans 2:12 "12 All who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified"/**B]

Note" “The law” Paul is speaking about here is “the Commandments” which are retianed in the New Civenant.

Love and prayers,

 

[BereanRuss]

For example, we neither teach or believe that one MUST be a Catholic to be saved… No priest = no Jesus = no Church= No Salvation!

Don’t these two statements contradict each other? If you are not Catholic, you have no priest. No priest = no Jesus = no Church= No Salvation

It is also amazing to me that you would list the priest before Jesus in that statement, No priest = no Jesus = no Church= No Salvation

 

[donalddon5]

Don’t these two statements contradict each other? If you are not Catholic, you have no priest. No priest = no Jesus = no Church= No Salvation

It is also amazing to me that you would list the priest before Jesus in that statement, No priest = no Jesus = no Church= No Salvation

Perhaps that is because it is the priest who offers up Christ to God in the Eucharist. And did not Jesus put others first by the sacrificing of himself. So what is so amazing about that?

 

[Jerry_Marino]

oh thank you for your honesty may God bless you.

 

[Jerry_Marino]

Perhaps that is because it is the priest who offers up Christ to God in the Eucharist. And did not Jesus put others first by the sacrificing of himself. So what is so amazing about that?

Through him then let us continually offer up a sacrifice

 

[BereanRuss]

Perhaps that is because it is the priest who offers up Christ to God in the Eucharist. And did not Jesus put others first by the sacrificing of himself. So what is so amazing about that?

So then Jesus is dependant upon the priest? God is dependant upon man?

 

[BereanRuss]

Romans 2:12 “12* All who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified”

You are not hearing the first part of what Paul said. He said, “All who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.” In other words, all of mankind is condemned by the law because all have sinned, those who know the law sinned as well as those who did not know the law. All are guilty and condemned before God.

Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. [Rom 3:19]