E
estesbob
Guest
Tanner beleives in OSAS and quotes scripture to back up his belief you disagree with Tanner and quote scripture to back up your belief. How do we resolve that?
- Status
I
inkaneer
Guest
REPLY: as for the “luther umbrella” Luther was the guy who gave sola scriptura to the world along with private interpretation of the scriptures so any denomination who espouses sola scruptura and private interpretation of the scriptures is rightfully lumped together. No Luther was not the only dissenter but he put his stamp on all of fututre protestantism with his sola scriptura.I am not denying there are non-Catholic churches that teach obviously heresies. However, sometimes I run in to a Catholic church that has a priest teaching un-Catholic ideas, also.
Also, Catholics like to lump all cults and all Catholic splits together under the “Luther” umbrella.
The Catholic Church has experienced splits before and after Luther. Yet Catholics seem to think Luther was the only dissenter.
So, every church that has a pastor preaching his own views apart from the Bible, does not qualify as “all Protestants belief”
There are basic fundamental doctrines which identify Christianity. If a church, or an entire denomination does not adhere to these doctrines, then by definition, they are not Christian.
As for the “basic fundamental doctrines which identify christianity” please tell us what are they. I would like to see your list.
G
Ginger2
Guest
I did respond.
G
Ginger2
Guest
I don’t know what Tanner said, so I can’t tell if he disagrees with me or if you simply misinterpret what he said.
However, that is resolved in Scripture itself.
Some Catholics believe you can get to heaven without Jesus, but by simply doing one great good deed that leads to your death. “How do you resolve that?”
Some Catholics believe women should be ordained priests. “How do you resolve that?”
G
Ginger2
Guest
This is a myth that has become widely believe because it has been repeated so very often. You know the old saying, if you tell a lie enough times, people will start to believe it.
This is what Luther said after mocking his RC critics and calling them "asses:
“I wanted to speak German since it was German I had spoken in
translation - not Latin or Greek. But it is the nature of our
language that in speaking about two things, one which is affirmed,
the other denied, we use the word “solum” only along with the word
“not” (nicht) or “no” (kein). For example, we say “the farmer
brings only (allein) grain and no money”; or “No, I really have no
money, but only (allein) grain”; I have only eaten and not yet
drunk”; “Did you write it only and not read it over?” There are a
vast number of such everyday cases…
Code:
In all these phrases, this is a German usage, even though it is
not the Latin or Greek usage. It is the nature of the German
tongue to add "allein" in order that "nicht" or "kein" may be
clearer and more complete. ....
We do not have to ask about the literal Latin or how we are to
speak German - as these asses do. Rather we must ask the mother
in the home, the children on the street, the common person in the
market about this. We must be guided by their tongue, the manner
of their speech, and do our translating accordingly. Then they
will understand it and recognize that we are speaking German to
them.
.... So, as the traitor Judas says in Matthew 26: "Ut quid perditio
haec?" and in Mark 14: "Ut quid perditio iste unguenti facta est?"
Subsequently, for these literalist asses I would have to translate
it: "Why has this loss of salve occurred?" But what kind of
German is this? What German says "loss of salve occurred"? And
if he does understand it at all, he would think that the salve is
lost and must be looked for and found again; even though that is
still obscure and uncertain. ..... But a German would say "Ut quid, etc.." as "Why this
waste?" or "Why this extravagance?" Even "it is a shame about the
ointment" - these are good German, in which one can understand
that Magdalene had wasted the salve she poured out and had done
wrong. That was what Judas meant as he thought he could have used
it better." - Martin LutherSince Protestant Bibles do not use the word “alone” in the English translations of Protestant Bibles, it is proof Luther did not create a new doctrine by adding a word to Scriptures…
In fact, it is this Catholic myth which spread the false doctrine of SF
E
estesbob
Guest
Based on who’s interpreation of Scripture?
Very easy-I refer them to the catehcism of the Catholic Church.Some Catholics believe you can get to heaven without Jesus, but by simply doing one great good deed that leads to your death. “How do you resolve that?”
Some Catholics believe women should be ordained priests. “How do you resolve that?”
G
Ginger2
Guest
lol!!! That is what I did to no avail. So I called upon other Catholics and they could not convince him, either. **But that shouldn’t be a surprise because the Bible tells us men will not be persuaded by human explanations, but rather by the Holy Spirit. **
T
twb1621
Guest
Recorded history proves the origin and lineage of the Catholic Church from the establishment laid by Jesus through His apostles and their successors. The Apostles continued the growth and establishment of the Church through the assignment of their successors and the formation of the hierarchy. These are the very same Faithful followers who came to be known as “Christians” in Antioch and a short time later recognized as the “universal” or “Catholic Church”.
Through the Gospel Jesus proclaims the Church He founded will never fall but He also clearly warned there would be corrupt men (wolves) who would violate her and deceive others. That those corrupt would cause many to follow the wrong path by distorting His word not only from outside His Church but from within at times. All of these prophesy we have seen including the corruption outside as well as those who deceived with His word from within the Church such as Martin Luther. There are many verses in Gospel that point all these violations against His Church out. It is also proclaimed that the Church WILL be of one God and One Faith and nowhere in scripture does it say derivatives with there own beliefs will be acceptable. It is specific to only one Faith and one God. The following verses are some of those attesting to these prophecies and proclamations;
**Latin Vulgate **
**Jesus said, **
**Mat. Ch16; 15-19 “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter said in reply, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.” Jesus answered, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” **
Luke CH22; 31 “And the Lord said: Simon, Simon, behold Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you all as wheat: 32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and thou, being once converted, confirm thy brethren.”
Jesus said:
“…I am the good shepherd, and I know mine and mine know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I will lay down my life for the sheep. I have other sheep that do not belong to this fold. These also I must lead, and they will hear my voice, and there will be one flock, one shepherd.” (Jn 10:14-16)
Matthew CH24; 4 “And Jesus answering, said to them: Take heed that no man seduce you: 5 For many will come in my name saying, I am Christ: and they will seduce many. 6 And you shall hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that ye be not troubled. For these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; and there shall be pestilences, and famines, and earthquakes in places: 8 Now all these are the beginnings of sorrows. 9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall put you to death: and you shall be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. 10 And then shall many be scandalized: and shall betray one another: and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall seduce many. 12 And because iniquity hath abounded, the charity of many shall grow cold. 13 But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved.”
Acts Ch20; 28 “Take heed to yourselves, and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. 29 I know that, after my departure, ravening wolves will enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30And of your own selves shall arise men speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.”
Ephesians CH4; 1 “I therefore, a prisoner in the Lord, beseech you that you walk worthy of the vocation in which you are called, 2 With all humility and mildness, with patience, supporting one another in charity. 3 Careful to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 One body (the Church) and one Spirit (Holy Spirit); as you are called in one hope of your calling. 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism.”
continued…
Through the Gospel Jesus proclaims the Church He founded will never fall but He also clearly warned there would be corrupt men (wolves) who would violate her and deceive others. That those corrupt would cause many to follow the wrong path by distorting His word not only from outside His Church but from within at times. All of these prophesy we have seen including the corruption outside as well as those who deceived with His word from within the Church such as Martin Luther. There are many verses in Gospel that point all these violations against His Church out. It is also proclaimed that the Church WILL be of one God and One Faith and nowhere in scripture does it say derivatives with there own beliefs will be acceptable. It is specific to only one Faith and one God. The following verses are some of those attesting to these prophecies and proclamations;
**Latin Vulgate **
**Jesus said, **
**Mat. Ch16; 15-19 “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter said in reply, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.” Jesus answered, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” **
Luke CH22; 31 “And the Lord said: Simon, Simon, behold Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you all as wheat: 32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and thou, being once converted, confirm thy brethren.”
Jesus said:
“…I am the good shepherd, and I know mine and mine know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I will lay down my life for the sheep. I have other sheep that do not belong to this fold. These also I must lead, and they will hear my voice, and there will be one flock, one shepherd.” (Jn 10:14-16)
Matthew CH24; 4 “And Jesus answering, said to them: Take heed that no man seduce you: 5 For many will come in my name saying, I am Christ: and they will seduce many. 6 And you shall hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that ye be not troubled. For these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; and there shall be pestilences, and famines, and earthquakes in places: 8 Now all these are the beginnings of sorrows. 9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall put you to death: and you shall be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. 10 And then shall many be scandalized: and shall betray one another: and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall seduce many. 12 And because iniquity hath abounded, the charity of many shall grow cold. 13 But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved.”
Acts Ch20; 28 “Take heed to yourselves, and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. 29 I know that, after my departure, ravening wolves will enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30And of your own selves shall arise men speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.”
Ephesians CH4; 1 “I therefore, a prisoner in the Lord, beseech you that you walk worthy of the vocation in which you are called, 2 With all humility and mildness, with patience, supporting one another in charity. 3 Careful to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 One body (the Church) and one Spirit (Holy Spirit); as you are called in one hope of your calling. 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism.”
continued…
T
twb1621
Guest
continued from previous post…
1 Corinthians CH12; “12***** For as the body is one, and hath many members; and all the members of the body, whereas they are many, yet are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For in one Spirit (The Holy Spirit) were we all baptized into one body (Church), whether Jews or Gentiles, whether bond or free; and in one Spirit we have all been made to drink. 14 For the body also is not one member, but many (the established church including the faithful******). 15 If the foot should say, because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 16 And if the ear should say, because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 17 If the whole body were the eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling? 18 But now God hath set the members every one of them in the body as it hath pleased him. 19 And if they all were one member, where would be the body? 20 But now there are many members indeed, yet one body. ***
21*** And the eye cannot say to the hand: I need not thy help; nor again the head to the feet: I have no need of you. 22 Yea, much more those that seem to be the more feeble members of the body, are more necessary. 23 And such as we think to be the less honourable members of the body, about these we put more abundant honour; and those that are our uncomely parts, have more abundant comeliness. 24 But our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, giving to that which wanted the more abundant honour, 25 That there might be no schism in the body; but the members might be mutually careful one for another*. **
26 If (one) part suffers, all the parts suffer with it; if one part is honored, all the parts share its joy. 27 Now you are Christ’s body, and individually parts of it. 28 Some people God has designated in the church to be, first, apostles; second, prophets; third, teachers; then, mighty deeds; then, gifts of healing, assistance, administration, and varieties of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work mighty deeds? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31 Strive eagerly for the greatest spiritual gifts. But I shall show you a still more excellent way. ”
Colossians CH1; 18***** “And he is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he may hold the primacy: 19 Because in him, it hath well pleased the Father, that all fullness should dwell; 20 And through him to reconcile all things unto himself, making peace through the blood of his cross, both as to the things that are on earth, and the things that are in heaven******. ***
21*** And you, whereas you were some time alienated and enemies in mind in evil works: 22 Yet now he hath reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unspotted, and blameless before him: 23 If so ye continue in the faith, grounded and settled, and immoveable from the hope of the gospel which you have heard, which is preached in all the creation that is under heaven, whereof I Paul am made a minister. 24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church******.”***
No where in Scripture does it say the Church Jesus founded would end, become corrupt and fail or be reestablished at any time or by any man before His return. On the contrary. It proclaims everything but these things to occur. If in fact the Catholic Church was not the true Church as some other “Christian” faiths were led to believe, one would have to know which Faith was the True Faith. After all, there must be one (and only one) because the Bible testifies to it and to the fact it must be visible, obvious, and is of only “one God, one Faith, one body and one Baptism”… So which one has been established by Jesus through the Apostles and their successors and has maintained consistency since His crucifixion without interruption as Jesus proclaimed AND has all the Characteristics to identify it Biblically?
Only the Catholic Church.
1 Corinthians CH12; “12***** For as the body is one, and hath many members; and all the members of the body, whereas they are many, yet are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For in one Spirit (The Holy Spirit) were we all baptized into one body (Church), whether Jews or Gentiles, whether bond or free; and in one Spirit we have all been made to drink. 14 For the body also is not one member, but many (the established church including the faithful******). 15 If the foot should say, because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 16 And if the ear should say, because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 17 If the whole body were the eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling? 18 But now God hath set the members every one of them in the body as it hath pleased him. 19 And if they all were one member, where would be the body? 20 But now there are many members indeed, yet one body. ***
21*** And the eye cannot say to the hand: I need not thy help; nor again the head to the feet: I have no need of you. 22 Yea, much more those that seem to be the more feeble members of the body, are more necessary. 23 And such as we think to be the less honourable members of the body, about these we put more abundant honour; and those that are our uncomely parts, have more abundant comeliness. 24 But our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, giving to that which wanted the more abundant honour, 25 That there might be no schism in the body; but the members might be mutually careful one for another*. **
26 If (one) part suffers, all the parts suffer with it; if one part is honored, all the parts share its joy. 27 Now you are Christ’s body, and individually parts of it. 28 Some people God has designated in the church to be, first, apostles; second, prophets; third, teachers; then, mighty deeds; then, gifts of healing, assistance, administration, and varieties of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work mighty deeds? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31 Strive eagerly for the greatest spiritual gifts. But I shall show you a still more excellent way. ”
Colossians CH1; 18***** “And he is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he may hold the primacy: 19 Because in him, it hath well pleased the Father, that all fullness should dwell; 20 And through him to reconcile all things unto himself, making peace through the blood of his cross, both as to the things that are on earth, and the things that are in heaven******. ***
21*** And you, whereas you were some time alienated and enemies in mind in evil works: 22 Yet now he hath reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unspotted, and blameless before him: 23 If so ye continue in the faith, grounded and settled, and immoveable from the hope of the gospel which you have heard, which is preached in all the creation that is under heaven, whereof I Paul am made a minister. 24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church******.”***
No where in Scripture does it say the Church Jesus founded would end, become corrupt and fail or be reestablished at any time or by any man before His return. On the contrary. It proclaims everything but these things to occur. If in fact the Catholic Church was not the true Church as some other “Christian” faiths were led to believe, one would have to know which Faith was the True Faith. After all, there must be one (and only one) because the Bible testifies to it and to the fact it must be visible, obvious, and is of only “one God, one Faith, one body and one Baptism”… So which one has been established by Jesus through the Apostles and their successors and has maintained consistency since His crucifixion without interruption as Jesus proclaimed AND has all the Characteristics to identify it Biblically?
Only the Catholic Church.
G
Ginger2
Guest
Show us the proof.
The RC shows a list of unbroken succession from Peter til today, but there is no historical evidence, nor Biblical evidence to support this doctrine existed from the beginning. Much of it is assumed.
Show us your evidence - not assumptions, but recorded proof - not “300 years later someone said this is how it happened”, but the historical documents from the first century that prove Peter appointed Linus.
and really, if there was true succession, how could an anti-pope hold office?
Ginger
E
estesbob
Guest
Unfortunately there are about as many different opinions of what the Bible tells us as there are people who read the Bible.that is why Christ entrusted the truth to his Church(the Catholic Church, of course) and not a book. We can see the mass confusion that resulted when man decided they could individually discern the truth from Scripture. One would think that the Spirit was in reality “Puck” of the Midsummer Nights Dream
G
Ginger2
Guest
All true Christians believe in the same basic doctrines which are found in the Holy Scriptures and summarized in the Apostle’s Creed:
I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
the Creator of heaven and earth, Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord: John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son,
Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit, Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
born of the Virgin Mary, Luk 1:27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name [was] Mary.
suffered under Pontius Pilate, Luke 23:16 I will therefore chastise him, and release [him].
was crucified, Luk 23:23 And they were instant with loud voices, requiring that he might be crucified. …24 And Pilate gave sentence that it should be as they required.
died, Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
and was buried. Luk 23:52 This [man] went unto Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. 53 And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid.
He descended into hell. Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Etc.,… All these basic Christian doctrine come directly from the Bible and are spelled out clearly.
If you don’t believe these basic Christian doctrines found in the Holy Bible, then by definition, you are not Christian.
E
estesbob
Guest
So you just dismiss the thousands and thousands of denominations that interpret Scripture different than you do as not “true” Christians? Why should we accept you view of what a “Christian” should beleive?
G
Ginger2
Guest
This is also a myth. Funny how you use a myth to defencd your faith and when the myth discredits your faith, you simply choose to ignore that part and insist the parts you like are still valid.
Not every religion is Protestant Christian. And Protestanism is not the cause of the rise of the many cults that pop up to worship their own make believe gods. These make believe god and goddess worshippers existed long before Jesus, so why does it surprise you they continue to this day when that is part of the freewill gift given to all humans?
G
Ginger2
Guest
Not my view, but what is written in the Scriptures. How can one claim to be a Christian if he/she doesn’t believe in Christian doctrines, the very beliefs that identify us as Christians?
That is like eating red meat and saying you are a vegetarian!!!
Or saying you are Swedish when you were born in Japan to full-blooded Japanese parents.
E
estesbob
Guest
I winder if anyohne else in this thread has noticed that everytime you cant answer a question you call it a “myth” . There is NOTHING that discredits my Faith.
E
estesbob
Guest
Doctrines based on who’s interpreation of Scripture?
G
Ginger2
Guest
I interpret Holy Scriptures to assert:
There is Only One God
ISAIAH
43:10 …Before me there was no God, and after me there will be none
Jesus is the One God
JOHN
10:33 The Jews answered him, “…you, although being a man, make yourself God.
The Jews wanted to stone Jesus for claiming to be God.
Only one Savior who is the one true God
ISAIAH 43:11 I am YHWH, and besides me there is no savior.
Only one Savior who is Jesus
LUKE 2:11 because there was born to you today a Savior, who is Christ [the] Lord,…
Only serve the one true God
Luke 4:8 You shall worship the Lord Your God and serve Him only
We serve Jesus
Col 3:24 it is the Lord Christ whom you serve
Only worship the one true God
EXODUS 20:5….because I, YHWH, your God am a God exacting exclusive devotion, …
Worship Jesus
MATTHEW
28:17 When they saw him (Jesus) they worshipped him;
Every Knee will bow to God
ISAIAH
45:23 ….that to me every knee shall bow, every tongue confess…
Every Knee will bow to Jesus
PHIL
2:10-11 …that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,…
God is the Creator of all things
ISAIAH 48:13 My own hand laid the foundations of the earth and my right hand spread out the heavens;
Jesus is the creator of all things
JOHN 1:3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.
God is the source of life
PSALMS 36:9 For by you is the source of life.
Jesus is the source of life
John 5:21 Indeed, just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whomever he wishes.
WHO IS THE FIRST AND LAST?
GOD
ISAIAH44:6 This is what YHWH has said, … “I am the first and I am the last, and besides me there is no God.”
JESUS
REVELATION
1:17-18 ….I am the first and the Last, ….and the living one, and I became dead, but look! I am living forever and ever,… Obviously, Jesus is the one who became dead but lives forever.
Who is our Father?
Isaiah 9:6 For a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us, And the princely power is on his shoulder, And He doth call his name Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.
Which of these facts spelled out clearly in Scriptures do you feel I’ve misinterpreted?
E
estesbob
Guest
I dont interpet Scripture for anyone-I do not ghave the authority to do so. Are you asserting that ALL Protestants agree with your opinion of what Christian Doctines are?
G
Ginger2
Guest
(Nice dodge! )
I am asserting to be Christian, one must believe in, agree with and adhere to the basic principles of Christianity, just the same way a vegetarian is only a vegetarian if he/she believes in and agrees with and adheres to the basic principles of vegetarianism.
I’ll repeat, if someone claims to be a vegetarian, but eats red meat and thinks eating red meat is a good and natural thing, then that person is not a vegetarian because he/she does not believe in and agree with and adhere to the basic principles of vegetarianism.
And if someone claims to be a Christian, but does not believe in, agree with and adhere to the basic principles of Christianity, then that person is not a Christian.
Now, vegetarians can disagree on whether by-products from live animals can or cannot be eaten without changing his/her status as a vegetarian. One vegetarian may say eating unfertilized chicken eggs is acceptable while another says it is not. Each is still a vegetarian, despite this difference among some. (however, if you said your a vegan, you can’t eat any animal by-products!)
The same is true for Christianity. We may disagree on things that are not clearly spelled out in Scriptures and still be Christian, but we cannot deny any of the basis fundamental doctrines that define Christianity.
Ginger
- Status