Personal interpretation of Scripture and Authority of Church

[estesbob]

On the contrary, The RC admits it is possible for people to go to heaven without being a member of the Catholic Church

Which it ALWAYS has

I did not make any claims as to superiority.
I merely stated Scriptures are clear and can be understood without the help of the RC.
I provided a list of Scriptures and stated what I believe (interpret) them to say,
and asked which ones you thought I misinterpreted:

Actually you were asked to explain how it could be that tens of thousands of different proetstatnt denominations , all using the same scripture and all claiming to be led by the same Spririt, have often contradictory views on such basics on how one is saved.?Your response was to list what you said were essential doctrines and claim anyone who didnt agree with them were not true chritisnas.

I ended my post with this question:
Which of these facts spelled out clearly in Scriptures do you feel I’ve misinterpreted?

The answer from Catholics was silence.

Or do you think repeating an unsubstantiated accusation is an appropriate response:

If you believe my statements show a misunderstanding of those Scriptures, please answer my question:
Which of these facts spelled out clearly in Scriptures do you feel I’ve misinterpreted?

If you agree that I have not misinterpreted these verses, but that the verses are clear and understandable as shown in my ability to understand them, then please acknowledge so.

Catholics acknowldege that we have no authority to intepret scripture for you or anyone esle. You are the one who made the claim that anyone can read Scripture and know the truth-a stamement that is easily disputed given the mass confusion that has occured since this doctrine was first postulated some 1,500 years after Christ founded the Chruch.

 

[Ginger2]

… your response was that :

b. any proeteatant denomination that disagreed with your personl list of essential doctrines were not true christians.

Not my personal opinion or determination…if they disagree with the Holy Word of God (ie the Bible) then they are not Christians

Here is one example:
Jehovah Witness claim to be the only true Christians. But they are not Christians at all. How do I know?

The Scriptures clearly state so in 1 John 4:2-3 “Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world”

JW’s deny Jesus came in the flesh, therefore God says they are not Christian.

Now where does the Bible say "if I don’t join the Roman Catholic Church, I am not a Christian? It doesn’t.

In fact it denies that teaching in Mark 9:38-40

 

[estesbob]

Not my personal opinion or determination…if they disagree with the Holy Word of God (ie the Bible) then they are not Christians

Here is one example:
Jehovah Witness claim to be the only true Christians. But they are not Christians at all. How do I know?

The Scriptures clearly state so in 1 John 4:2-3 “Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world”

JW’s deny Jesus came in the flesh, therefore God says they are not Christian.

Why should we accept you personal interpeation of Scripture over that of the Jehova Witnesses?

 

[Ginger2]

Actually you were asked to explain how it could be that tens of thousands of different proetstatnt denominations , all using the same scripture and all claiming to be led by the same Spririt, have often contradictory views on such basics on how one is saved.?Your response was to list what you said were essential doctrines and claim anyone who didnt agree with them were not true chritisnas.

The problem is you are lumping schismatic cults together with non-Catholic Christians as tho these cults were never heard of before the reformation.

JW’s deny Jesus is God. This schism existed in the first century. It is not a split from Luther.

As I said before, all Christians believe the same basic, essential doctrines as laid out in the Holy Scriptures.

Catholics acknowldege that we have no authority to intepret scripture for you or anyone esle.

Then why do you insist on telling me I have misinterpreted Scriptures - especially since I provided my understanding of several Scriptures to which you seem to believe I correctly understand??? At least you haven’t said I am wrong to believe there is Only One God, One Savior, One Creator, etc.

So why are you still arguing?

 

[Ginger2]

Why should we accept you personal interpeation of Scripture over that of the Jehova Witnesses?

LOL I am not asking you to accept my interpretation - the Bible is clear Jesus is God.
I agree with the Bible.
The Jehovah witnesses disagree with the Bible.

If you agree with God’s written Word, we are in agreement with each other.

If you agree with the JW’s, then you disagree with the Bible.

 

[estesbob]

The problem is you are lumping schismatic cults together with non-Catholic Christians as tho these cults were never heard of before the reformation.

JW’s deny Jesus is God. This schism existed in the first century. It is not a split from Luther.

As I said before, all Christians believe the same basic, essential doctrines as laid out in the Holy Scriptures.

How do we determine which denominations are cults and which are not? Again it all comes down to ones personal intperpreation of scripture. With no acknowledged authority everyone becomes an authority.

Then why do you insist on telling me I have misinterpreted Scriptures - especially since I provided my understanding of several Scriptures to which you seem to believe I correctly understand??? At least you haven’t said I am wrong to believe there is Only One God, One Savior, One Creator, etc.

So why are you still arguing?

I am telling you that you have rejected the One True Church and have embraced false doctrines. Since you claim to have gotten these faleshoods from Scriptiure the only assumption we can make is you have misinterpreted scripture.

 

[Ginger2]

How do we determine which denominations are cults and which are not? Again it all comes down to ones personal intperpreation of scripture. With no acknowledged authority everyone becomes an authority.

I thought my example was clear. JW’s deny Christ came in the flesh. The Bible says clearly: every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God:

The Bible tells us how "we determine which “denominations” are cults and which are not "

According to God, the JWs are not Christian because they deny Jesus.

I am telling you that you have rejected the One True Church and have embraced false doctrines. Since you claim to have gotten these faleshoods from Scriptiure the only assumption we can make is you have misinterpreted scripture.

I gave you a list of doctrines I believe based on the Holy Scriptures. Which of these doctrines are false? I’ll number them to make it easy for you.

1. There is Only One God
2. Only one Savior
3. We are to serve only the one true God
4. We are to worship only the one true God
5. God is the Creator of all things
6. God is the source of life

Which of the above statements do you deny?
**
Please, tell me which of these statements are false?**

1. What about this new claim? I say the JWs worshiping the One and Only true God. According to your infallible interpretation of Scriptures, are the JWs worshiping the One and Only True God when they deny Jesus Christ?

When you show me my error, we can add more to this list so you can correct the rest of my errors, but first let’s get these right.

 

[estesbob]

I thought my example was clear. JW’s deny Christ came in the flesh. The Bible says clearly: every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God:

The Bible tells us how "we determine which “denominations” are cults and which are not "

According to God, the JWs are not Christian because they deny Jesus.

I gave you a list of doctrines I believe based on the Holy Scriptures. Which of these doctrines are false? I’ll number them to make it easy for you.

1. There is Only One God
2. Only one Savior
3. We are to serve only the one true God
4. We are to worship only the one true God
5. God is the Creator of all things
6. God is the source of life

Which of the above statements do you deny?

Please, tell me which of these statements are false?

1. What about this new claim? I say the JWs worshiping the One and Only true God. According to your infallible interpretation of Scriptures, are the JWs worshiping the One and Only True God when they deny Jesus Christ?

When you show me my error, we can add more to this list so you can correct the rest of my errors, but first let’s get these right.

So you believe these are the only doctines necessary for ones salvation?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Hmm. So you are listing various doctrines but in all your so-called ‘answers’ to my question (yes, I re-read yet AGAIN especially all your red ‘bolded’ text AGAIN) and even now, your answer (which is a non-answer) continues to be:

Scripture is there. A person reads it. His interpretation is either correct or not. How do we know it is correct? Scripture supports it. But how do we know the use of the Scripture to support is actually correct? Scripture tells us that “The Devil can quote Scripture to suit his purpose.” John 6 is claimed to be scripturally supported as FIGURATIVE by some and as LITERAL by others, both with the extensive use of Scripture.

Let’s keep that in the equation, Ginger. Because on THIS one, I know that you’re at least Catholic leaning since you say you believe in the Real Presence.

Now. . .many, in fact the majority, of your Protestant brothers and sisters deny John 6 and they cite Scripture after Scripture to ‘support’ their position.

Scripture doesn’t contradict itself. But Protestants are contradicting their Scriptural interpretations all the time.

And this contradicts YOU because your own continued assertions is that there is a clear ‘right’ interpretation of Scripture. And while you’ve backed away in your latest answers, in earlier ones you came right out and claimed that those Protestants who espoused the ‘wrong’ interpretations did so KNOWING FULL WELL THE CORRECT ONES.

So it appears you have somewhat changed your position now to saying that these ‘honestly misguided souls’ have not yet received the full clarity from God.

So here you’re acknowledging that there is a ‘gradation’ of sorts and that Scripture isn’t necessarily grasped ‘clearly’. And so it comes down to again that personal ‘assurance’ or ‘feeling’ that the “Spirit says”. I’ll agree that all true knowledge comes from God but I ask you how you know for SURE you’re correct in your interpretation?

Remember, all those eager Protestants who share your interpretation on many other points vehemently deny the Real Presence. . .they are ‘right’ on the other topics why not on this? They have Scripture, why aren’t they correct?

 

[shoewindow3000]

“This is clearly seen in Paul’s commendation to Timothy: “… from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work” (2 Timothy 3:15-17).”

You do understand that thisreference by Paul is to the Old Testament?

And though Paul received the Word directly from Christ like the rest of the Apostles, he handed down that knowledge through oral Tradition to Timothy, among others. The rest of the Apostles did the same. The Church was needed to ensure the continuity of that message of truth for two centuries before the Gospels were written. The disciples of the Apostles and their disciples spread the Word orallyand the Church rebuked those who fell into error or heresy. That happened often enough in the first centuries and that led to the authoritative compilation of Scripture, by the Church, deciding which were truly inspired and belonged in the Canon and which weren’t and didn’t.

The Gospels were written in the first century. Mark, for example, was written around 64 AD, by a disciple of Peter.

 

[shoewindow3000]

Satan** knows** Scripture* inside and out*. Remember how he tempted Jesus in the wilderness, and both were quoting what seem to* us* to be random scripture passages?
Satan interpreted the Scripture in the way he wanted to, in order to fit his situation and his argument- yet, in our minds, everything he said *seems *“correct.”

If the level of understanding required to understand Sacred Scripture is that great, how can **ANYBODY **assume to be able to understand without God?!?!?!
Just the fact that there is more than one interpretation of Scripture in Protestantism PROVES, beyond ANY DOUBT, that they are not lead by the Holy Spirit.

It is Satan who has caused these perverse ideas to grow in the minds of people.

If Satan can deceive angels (who are much wiser than us, and have a direct audience with God), then fooling people would be a cakewalk.
**
THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS THE TRUE CHURCH!**

Christ suffered during His Passion for our sin, and that includes all of the schisms and false teachers who have been led to not only leave the Church of Christ, but to* hate* the Church of Christ!
The very people who think they are serving God, are pitting themselves* against Him* with their false doctrines that lead people astray! Isn’t it true that teachers receive a harder judgment??

Ultimately, we have to remember that our reasoning is flawed, and true humility means accepting the truth, even if it doesn’t seem to fit the pattern of what we think “should” be right.

Satan’s deception here is that he gave the protestant mind the belief in the “right” for anybody to judge according to Scripture.

 

[Ginger2]

Satan** knows** Scripture* inside and out*. Remember how he tempted Jesus in the wilderness, and both were quoting what seem to* us* to be random scripture passages?
Satan interpreted the Scripture in the way he wanted to, in order to fit his situation and his argument- yet, in our minds, everything he said *seems *“correct.”

Not hardly. We err when we don’t know the Scriptures. Let’s look at one example in the passage you cited:

Mat 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for **it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. **

If Satan can deceive angels (who are much wiser than us, and have a direct audience with God), then fooling people would be a cakewalk.

Mar 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if [it were] possible, even the elect.

Besides, Where in Scripture does it say the angels who followed satan were deceived?

 

[benedictus2]

Tantum ergo:

OK, the Holy Spirit does not contradict Himself. So which of the Scriptural ‘authorities’ for the two positions is correct and why?

Exactly. Which is why Protestants reject RC extra-Biblical doctrines that contradict Holy Scriptures.

Have a nice day!

You failed to answer Tantum ergo’s question yet again.

Dodging the question does not help.

I have asked this same question before.

To rephrase Tantum’s question one more time::

Take baptism: Some protetants believe in baptism, some don’t.
If you say that the Holy Spirit guides those who read the Bible, which of these positions is correct since as Tantum has pointed out, the Holy Spirit does not contradict Himself. Both positions are mutually exclusive so only one could be correct.

I don’t know what your position is on baptism, but let us say you don’t believe in baptism, and another protestant does.

Which of you can be said to have been guided by the Holy Spirit and why?

 

[benedictus2]

"How can two or more people read the same Scripture and come to two different understandings of what it means?

The answer to that question is in the Holy Scriptures.

First:
If one person has an interpretation that contradicts Scripture, that interpretation is wrong.

And we know it is wrong because it contradicts the Holy Scriptures.

The Bible says we can use the Scriptures to test for truth!!! Act 17:11 Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

Aah but this is where you reasoning fails because both sides actually CITE Scripture for support.

I mean take your stand on Matthew 16 a few posts ago.

You were dumping scriptural quotes left, right and centre to prove your point and yet your interpretation is so way off the mark.

This argumentation also smacks of circular reasoning. It is precisely the interpretation of Scripture that is at question here.

If you look at John 20:21 and Acts you have a seeming contradition there with regards the gifting of the Holy Spirit.

Also, we say that John 20:21 is an institution of the sacrament of Reconciliation, you say not.

Our interpretation does not contradict Scripture because Jesus’s words are plain as day and yet you you have protestants who will do all sort of scriptural girations to prove otherwise.

 

[Ginger2]

You failed to answer Tantum ergo’s question yet again.

Two things, B.

First,I have shown that many of these so-called Protestant sects find their origins in the 1st century, not the reformation.

I have also shown you what the Bible says about those who reject or misunderstand the Word. Why ask my opinion when God has given you the answer to these questions? If that is how God designed His plan, who are we to argue?

Second, It is obvious you cannot support the negative claims made about me, and therefore need to ask me about others. I cannot answer for the entire World throughout all time. Should I accuse based on the varying beliefs of Church Fathers? You say you are unified, but when fathers of the church disagree with dogmas why are they not excommunicated as heretics? Instead the response is, “that is just their personal opinions, not church teaching.”

So my answer for the portion of the world that disagrees with the Holy Scriptures is, “That is just their personal opinion, not what the Holy Scriptures teach.”

So, let’s still with the accusation that I have misinterpreted Scriptures.

I gave you a list and have already added one more point to it. Is there anything in that list you deny?

1. There is Only One God
2. Only one Savior
3. We are to serve only the one true God
4. We are to worship only the one true God
5. God is the Creator of all things
6. God is the source of life

Which of the above statements do you deny?

Please, tell me which of these statements are false?

1. What about this new claim? I say the JWs worshiping the One and Only true God. According to your infallible interpretation of Scriptures, are the JWs worshiping the One and Only True God when they deny Jesus Christ?

I’ll give you time to answer and if you find no misunderstandings, I’ll add a few new ones for your infallible review.

 

[benedictus2]

Two things, B.

First,I have shown that many of these so-called Protestant sects find their origins in the 1st century, not the reformation.

And if you look at my post again, I was not even addressing this point at all.

I have also shown you what the Bible says about those who reject or misunderstand the Word. Why ask my opinion when God has given you the answer to these questions? If that is how God designed His plan, who are we to argue?

If you re-read my post, it is not about Biblical answers. The question is LOGICAL one. I even cited simple examples to make it easier for you to come up with an answer.

But you have failed to do that.

What I always tell people who go off on tangents with their replies to my post is to stick to what I have written and not assume I am saying things I have not actually said.

Second, It is obvious you cannot support the negative claims made about me, and therefore need to ask me about others.

Hey, I don’t even know what negative claims you are talking about. I don’t deal with personalities. If you look back to our discussion on another thread a few months ago, I only ever stick to scripture and logic. Nothing more, nothing less.

I cannot answer for the entire World throughout all time.

And I never asked you to. All I asked with the post you are replying to is a very simple question that deals more with LOGIC.

So my answer for the portion of the world that disagrees with the Holy Scriptures is, “That is just their personal opinion, not what the Holy Scriptures teach.”

See here again, you fail to understand my question. You say that they must conform to Holy Scripture. How then do you decide when both sides are citing scripture to support their views. This is the question that you must address.

So, let’s still with the accusation that I have misinterpreted Scriptures.

Aah now we get to it. If :

1. you are saying you have not misinterpreted Scripture (quoting Scripture to prove it) and
2. I am saying I have not misinterpreted scripture (quoting Scripture as well), and
3. We come up with different interpretations,

THEN how do you determine which one can be said to be truly guided by the Holy Spirit and completely in accord with Scripture.?

I am not responding to the rest this post because this list has no bearing on my and Tantum’s question which is really a LOGICAL question. Citing scripture will not solve the problem.

 

[estesbob]

I gave you a list and have already added one more point to it. Is there anything in that list you deny?

1. There is Only One God
2. Only one Savior
3. We are to serve only the one true God
4. We are to worship only the one true God
5. God is the Creator of all things
6. God is the source of life

Which of the above statements do you deny?

Please, tell me which of these statements are false?

1. What about this new claim? I say the JWs worshiping the One and Only true God. According to your infallible interpretation of Scriptures, are the JWs worshiping the One and Only True God when they deny Jesus Christ?

.

Are these the only doctrines one need adhere to to gain heaven? How do we know the JWs interpeation of Scripture is not the correct one?

 

[Ginger2]

You say that they must conform to Holy Scripture. How then do you decide when both sides are citing scripture to support their views. This is the question that you must address.

This is easily discerned using the Scriptures themselves by keeping the verses in context.

Correct interpretation requires keeping the comment in context. The sentence by itself could me misinterpreted. But when you look at the comments before and after, the meaning becomes clear.

Let me repeat an example used in a previous thread:

Someone said Matthew 2:16 “Then Herod, …slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, …” was prophesied in Wisdom 11:7. For instead of a fountain of an ever running river, thou gavest human blood to the unjust.

If you only see one verse you might think there is a relationship between the Mat 2 and Wis 11.

However, the next verse in Matthew says it fulfills the prophesy spoken by Jeremiah: Matthew 2:17 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, (re: Jer 31:15 )

So while many Catholics have misinterpreted Matt, a nothing little Protestant like me was able to understand the correct interpretation by using Scripture Alone

Aah now we get to it.

Indeed we have!!!

If :

1. you are saying you have not misinterpreted Scripture (quoting Scripture to prove it) and
2. I am saying I have not misinterpreted scripture (quoting Scripture as well), and
3. We come up with different interpretations,

You keep saying that, but have not shown me which of the verses from the list I proved, you deny.

Please either acknowledge you agree my understanding is correct or point out the one you deny.

Ginger

 

[Tantum_ergo]

And we aren’t talking of your 7 Ginger as you still fail to address.

Both sides arguing baptism (or the Real Presence) supply Scripture IN CONTEXT. Both can make a very reasoned ‘case’ using that Scripture in context.

How can you, and let’s get REAL specific here, tell me that Jesus’s words “I am the bread of life”, backed up by the Scriptural context in which the Jews walked away from Him, taking this remark literally and finding it too hard to accept. . . thus, arguing that this is a LITERAL passage. . .

and hearing another Christian argue that, in Jesus’s words, “I am the bread of life” backed up by the Scriptural context in which Jesus finished the passage in which this is found by stating, “Flesh avails nothing, the words I give you are Spirit and Life”. . .which some argue proves that this is a FIGURATIVE passage. . .

How can you state WHICH of the above is correct and KNOW it? Remember, both sides use Scripture AND IN CONTEXT.

 

[Ginger2]

Are these the only doctrines one need adhere to to gain heaven? How do we know the JWs interpeation of Scripture is not the correct one?

Because Scriptures tell us so!

…The Scriptures clearly state in 1 John 4:2-3 “Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world”

JW’s deny Jesus came in the flesh, …

AND:

I thought my example was clear. JW’s deny Christ came in the flesh. The Bible says clearly: every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God:

The Bible tells us how "we determine which “denominations” are cults and which are not " …

For hopefully the last time: We can tell who has the correct interpretation by comparing the claims to the Holy Scriptures. We do not trust one verse quoted tells the whole story, not even that it is quoted accurately, but rather we check for ourselves as did the Bereans by searching the Scriptures.