Personal interpretation

[PRmerger]

My conclusion is that the whole of Christian life can be summed up by FAITH in Jesus, not in some alleged infallible religious institution

And each and every time you profess “Jesus said” or “Jesus would not” the only way you know this is because this “alleged infallible religious institution” told you Jesus said this.

For you would not know what Jesus said, except for the Catholic Church giving you this information.

(Unless, of course, you’re going to proclaim that Jesus came to you in a vision or a dream and gave you His personal testimony. If this is your story, then we’re alltogether in a different genre of discussions with you.)

[SIGN1]Without the Church, Christ’s Body, you have not a whit of information about Christ.[/SIGN1]

 

[PRmerger]

not FAITH in some alleged infallible religious institution by which genuine faith (in Jesus) is mocked as if it were a silly and useless thing.

You are objecting to a CC which exists only in the figment of your imagination, Doggg.

See this site for how many times “faith” is mentioned in our Catechism. There’s 10 pages of references. Not 10 pages in the Catechism. But 10 pages of “hits” you can search.

 

[Doggg]

I challenge you to provide any post from an orthodox Catholic here on the CAFs that has stated that he/she worships the Church.

From this, it appears (to me) that you are making the assumption that the worship of a religion is OK as long as we don’t STATE that we do so. Perhaps I’ve misunderstood you here, but I believe that the worship of a religion is truly a form of idol worship even if the idol worshiper never admits that they are worshiping their religion.

And I challenge you to provide any document from the Magisterium that proclaims that we worship the Church.

:coffeeread:

 

[Cinette]

I agree with you.

Nor do I.

We are agreed here, as well.

 

[Cinette]

Whether we humans abandon the teachings of God to worship as our “vicar” a golden calf or the magisterium of the RCC, it is still earthly, sinful, and it is idol worship. This is not a tiny sin!

*I am highly offended by your words Doggg. You do not know what you are talking about!

Cinett4e*

 

[wanner47]

One possible reason why a non-Christian would want to hold such an office is to teach the sheep error and then drag them away. False teachers will indeed enter the church!

Interesting. Judging by her writings, she doesn’t seem to feel that she is teaching false beliefs. Why do you believe she is deliberately deceiving?

If I could meet with her, I wouldn’t tell her that my own personal “authority” is any greater than hers. I would ask her why she believes that abortion is a sacrament, and by who’s authority she teaches this.

Isn’t her authority the same as yours?

If she were to explain to me that her church (whatever “church” it is) teaches infallibly through its magisterium, and that a simple study of history ought to be sufficient to prove that her “church’s” popes can trace their apostolic roots all the way back to the apostle Peter, I would then ask her if she believes that her personal interpretation of history could be fallible. From that point, I’m guessing that you can tell that she would obviously have a bit of explaining to do.

She belongs to the Episcopal Church, which does claim apostolic succession.

She has explained, quite a lot. Read her writings in the link above.

One thing that I would NOT assume about her is that she is following her conscience. She knows very well that killing a baby for personal convenience is wrong.

Based on her writings, she does not know that. She seems to believe that (a) unborn children aren’t people, and (b) even if they are people, it’s okay to kill them.

No, I believe that God can, and often does, use the bible and the Holy Spirit to teach His truths to those that He has chosen.

So how is it that two people, both of whom sincerely believe they are being led by the Holy Spirit, can come to oppositional beliefs?

I do indeed believe that my religion contains the truth, even if I wrongly interpret parts of it.

How can you condemn Catholics for believing the same about Catholicism?

I like to hear that. I don’t hear it too often from RC’s! Praise God, that you worship Him only!

I have never heard a Catholic say otherwise, Doggg. We worship God alone. We honor the Pope, the Church, Mary, and the communion of saints. Honor =/= worship.

 

[wanner47]

From this, it appears (to me) that you are making the assumption that the worship of a religion is OK as long as we don’t STATE that we do so. Perhaps I’ve misunderstood you here, but I believe that the worship of a religion is truly a form of idol worship even if the idol worshiper never admits that they are worshiping their religion.

Doggg, has any Catholic said on this thread that s/he worships the Church?

Can you cite any legitimate Catholic teaching that claims that the worship of the Church is acceptable?

 

[Doggg]

Doggg, has any Catholic said on this thread that s/he worships the Church?

Can you cite any legitimate Catholic teaching that claims that the worship of the Church is acceptable?

It isn’t what is CLAIMED (by the religion or by its followers) about what is and isn’t being worshiped that matters. It is the idol worshiping itself that is sinful.

 

[PRmerger]

but I believe that the worship of a religion is truly a form of idol worship even if the idol worshiper never admits that they are worshiping their religion.

Worship of a religion is, indeed, idol worship. (Not sure how one would go about worshipping a religion, though. How would one do that?)

So now I challenge you to provide an document from the Magisterium that proclaims that Catholics must worship this religion.

Especially when the Catechism says this:

“You shall worship the Lord your God” (Mt 4:10). Adoring God, praying to him, offering him the worship that belongs to him, fulfilling the promises and vows made to him are acts of the virtue of religion which fall under obedience to the first commandment.

and this:

“Now this is the Catholic faith: We worship one God in the Trinity and the Trinity in unity, without either confusing the persons or dividing the substance; for the person of the Father is one, the Son’s is another, the Holy Spirit’s another; but the Godhead of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is one, their glory equal, their majesty coeternal” (Athanasian Creed: DS 75; ND 16).

and this:

The duty to offer God authentic worship concerns man both as an individual and as a social being.

 

[Doggg]

And each and every time you profess “Jesus said” or “Jesus would not” the only way you know this is because this “alleged infallible religious institution” told you Jesus said this.

This sounds like the worship of a religion. But if you disagree with my opinion, tell me this, how would your attitude toward your religion be any different if you were a Muslim extremist?

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Doggg,

Actually, Christ founded a Church - and this was not a theoretical abstraction - but One
Chruch that He founded on Peter - and even gave Peter the Keys to Kingdom so everyone can equate that following the teachings of the Chruch will lead to the eternal Joy of being with Christ in heaven. Scripture compares the Church to the Bride of Christ - not some idol that is worshiped by the lost.

Your association with the golden calf idol of the ancient Hebrews and the Magisterium is truly insulting. Do you not realize that God chose to work through and with humans in His Plan for Salvation. Do you feel that matter is somehow sinful, evil or somehow beneath the Choice of God? Did you know that this sounds a lot like Nestorianism.

You might want to check on that!

God bless

Whether we humans abandon the teachings of God to worship as our “vicar” a golden calf or the magisterium of the RCC, it is still earthly, sinful, and it is idol worship. This is not a tiny sin!

 

[Doggg]

Worship of a religion is, indeed, idol worship. (Not sure how one would go about worshipping a religion, though. How would one do that?)

Are you trusting in your “infallible church” for all the fullness you need? Is this not obvious from what you’ve been writing here?

So now I challenge you to provide an document from the Magisterium that proclaims that Catholics must worship this religion.

It isn’t a matter of church documents at all. It is only about what you worship.

 

[PRmerger]

This sounds like the worship of a religion.

Ah, I see where your error lies.

Perhaps you mean praising a religion? Yes, I praise my faith. It is the best!

I often praise my children, too. But I do not worship them.

But if you disagree with my opinion, tell me this, how would your attitude toward your religion be any different if you were a Muslim extremist?

I ask you how your attitude towards the Bible would be any different if you were a Muslim extremist towards the Koran?

 

[wanner47]

This sounds like the worship of a religion. But if you disagree with my opinion, tell me this, how would your attitude toward your religion be any different if you were a Muslim extremist?

Doggg, if we worshiped a religion we would be saying that power comes from the religion and not from God. But we don’t say that, nor do our actions profess that. God is the source and summit of the Christian faith. Without Him, there would be no Church. Without him, there would be no creation. To Him be all the glory, power, and majesty.

Here’s what the Catholic Encyclopedia says about worship given to God vs. the honor and regard we give to the Church:

There are several degrees of this worship:

* if it is addressed directly to God, it is superior, absolute, supreme worship, or worship of adoration, or, according to the consecrated theological term, a worship of *latria*. This sovereign worship is due to God alone; addressed to a creature it would become idolatry.
* When worship is addressed only indirectly to God, that is, when its object is the veneration of martyrs, of angels, or of saints, it is a subordinate worship dependent on the first, and relative, in so far as it honours the creatures of God for their peculiar relations with Him; it is designated by theologians as the worship of *dulia*, a term denoting servitude, and implying, when used to signify our worship of distinguished servants of God, that their service to Him is their title to our veneration (cf. Chollet, loc. cit., col. 2407, and Bouquillon, Tractatus de virtute religionis, I, Bruges, 1880, 22 sq.).

 

[Doggg]

Ah, I see where your error lies.

Perhaps you mean praising a religion? Yes, I praise my faith. It is the best!

I often praise my children, too. But I do not worship them.

I ask you how your attitude towards the Bible would be any different if you were a Muslim extremist towards the Koran?

If I were a Muslim extremist, I would be the same way. I would be telling everyone that the Koran is the inerrant word of God.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Doggg,

Is it so hard to simply respond to the question presented to you by PRmerger?

The burden is on you to back up your own statement - maybe you just did not understand that. Your statement is offensive and totally lacks credibility - and this is the challenge.

Your evasion is noted - but, please, if you are going to make insulting statements and not even stand by them, maybe this is material for the Monitors to look at. So, put up or shut up.

God bless

There is no document that will convince you to believe what you are not willing to believe.

You are accusing me of contempt for YOUR religion. If you were a Muslim extremist, how would your attitude toward your religion be any different? Is religion–any religion, what we ought to worship? If so, why?

 

[Doggg]

Ah, I see where your error lies.

Perhaps you mean praising a religion? Yes, I praise my faith. It is the best!

I often praise my children, too. But I do not worship them.

In your opinion, can a person worship what he or she praises? At some rather extreme point, doesn’t praise sometimes turn into worship?

 

[tqualey]

Now, hold on a minute, there PRmerger!

This is a SERIOUS figment - in fact, it is the only one that counts as far as I can determine from Doggg’s posts! Without this figment of the Catholic Church … well … there really would only reality to consider…

You have repeated asked for proofs and Doggg’s responses are simply evasion to maintain the feeding of that figment. If you continue … well … you just may destroy it! Then what would happen? Chances are there would be the reality of Christ actully loving His Church - you know, the one He founded on Peter! I believe the analogy used is that He loves His Church as His Bride.

But be careful - if just one of your logical presentations penetrates the hide of this figment - it could rapidly depressurize … sort of like a balloon that confronts a pin! So, for safety sake … stay at least a half-arm’s length from your keyboard!

God bless

You are objecting to a CC which exists only in the figment of your imagination, Doggg.

See this site for how many times “faith” is mentioned in our Catechism. There’s 10 pages of references. Not 10 pages in the Catechism. But 10 pages of “hits” you can search.

 

[wanner47]

Are you trusting in your “infallible church” for all the fullness you need? Is this not obvious from what you’ve been writing here?

The Church is only infallible by the power of God. When we trust in the Church, we are trusting in the God who established that Church and gave it the authority to teach and lead His people.

Without God, the Church is nothing.

It isn’t a matter of church documents at all. It is only about what you worship.

We worship God alone. To worship anything else would be idolatry. We honor what God has created, including the Church. But we do not worship it.

 

[Doggg]

Is it so hard to simply respond to the question presented to you by PRmerger?

The burden is on you to back up your own statement - maybe you just did not understand that. Your statement is offensive and totally lacks credibility - and this is the challenge.

Your evasion is noted - but, please, if you are going to make insulting statements and not even stand by them, maybe this is material for the Monitors to look at. So, put up or shut up.

God bless

What do you want me to respond to? You didn’t say.

I’ve already been warned tonight by the moderator that I’m in danger of being banned. If I stop answering your questions and act like I’m evading them, it is because I really would prefer NOT to be banned. Please understand my situation. What I’m trying to tell you probably can’t be said in a way that is pleasant for Catholics to hear. But I’m a Christian. Therefore, I ought to be willing take a risk and bring you a very important message if I care about you. I don’t want to offend any of you! If I knew of some way to tell you these things without any pain, I sure would.