Personal observations concerning prayer, and the dead

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Here is an example of repetitive prayer from the Bible (Matthew 26) and the person praying in this way is none other than Jesus!

*36 **Then Jesus came with them to a place called Gethsemane, and he said to his disciples, “Sit here while I go over there and pray.” **37 **He took along Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to feel sorrow and distress. **38 **Then he said to them, “My soul is sorrowful even to death. Remain here and keep watch with me.” **39 *He advanced a little and fell prostrate in prayer, saying, "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from me; yet, not as I will, but as you will." *40 **When he returned to his disciples he found them asleep. He said to Peter, “So you could not keep watch with me for one hour? **41 **Watch and pray that you may not undergo the test.The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.” **42 Withdrawing a second time, he prayed again, "My Father, if it is not possible that this cup pass without my drinking it, your will be done!" 43 **Then he returned once more and found them asleep, for they could not keep their eyes open. **44 **He left them and withdrew again **and prayed a third time, saying the same thing again. ***
God Bless,
Gary
Very cool answer, gez722!

BTW…I want to clarify something. I read I Corinthians 6:2 recently, which reminds us that the saints play some mysterious part at the final judgement. It is my understanding, however, that this verse is referring to final judgement–ie. a definite point in the future. I don’t think it’d be wise to use this verse as an underlying basis to support the notion that the saints are necessarily judging our each and every move. While I would bet there is perhaps some kind of judgement being exercised in some special circumstances, I am not convinced this is a day to day event–otherwise the final judgement would carry a bit less meaning or significance, it seems.

I guess my concern is that the interest in the dead might be a carryover from kesa82’s involvement in the occult. There is a book written by a Catholic priest and exorcist which I read recently which points out that any involvement in the occult (even dabbling or “parlor games”) can have a lasting spiritual influence or source of confusion unless specifically addressed through a priest or spiritual advisor. Unless the person being prayed to (communicated with, not worshiped, for the Protestants out there) is a saint identified by the Catholic Church, there is a certain supposition going on that the soul is indeed in heaven. Having just had a close relative pass away, I understand that sometimes that this belief is powerful and profound, but we should at least be aware that it is God’s decision, after all. If we don’t take care, we may end up in communications with the “wrong side”.
 
To Damascus,

I am a catholic but i am not a blind catholic I want faith that is enlightened not blind. the reason why i asked about purgatory because this is not found in the bible and i think you should open your mind on the passage of the bible in " **Eccl:12:7:Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it" ** to the open-minded man there is no other interpretation than …when man dies his body returns to dust and his spirit returns to God… there is no other place mentioned in the entire bible.

The soul is the wholeness of man …“Gn:2:7:
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.”
… not what we catholic usually think as something of a spirit…(that is if we believe in Genesis 2:7 quoted above)

So Mr Damascus, please explain to me about purgatory… because i cannot in my God given intellect accept this doctrine of our faith…

thanks

junvir… a struggling catholic who needs enligthenment
Okay Junvir- its in Corinthians. I dont have time to get the actual verse now.

I had a busy day.

I will be happy to help you.

Purgatory is biblical. You may not agree, but that is fine.

Why did you ignore my other responses to you in that other thread if you were truly sincere?

You did not want an answer. I find that odd.
 
Some points of clarification -
  • I did not imply that they ever spoke back. But then why should they ? To someone, God for instance, who is living in the context of eternity , if I live another 60 years that may seem like a mere 6 hours. So why speak to me this instant when they will see me soon enough ? Not to sound irreligious , but if I started hearing voices or seeing visions I would run to the doctor.
  • I did study the occult, backwards and forwards. - Which led me to the conclusion that it is at best a joke, at worst another way to make money without working, or producing. And which led to the result that I converted to Catholicism. Weaken faith? Certainly not. It only strengthened it long - term. I understand why a parent would want to shield their child, and I understand that it is human nature to desire to avoid pain or error. But that suggestion has always raised alarm bells with me. Would saint Augustine have been Saint Augustine if he had always been a good little boy ? I doubt it. We learn through error, doubt, suffering, sin, and failure.
    No, that isn’t theology. It is just common sense.
I’m not psychic, so why was I so certain that , on a theological forum , someone would suggest that talking to God all day is unhealthy ? It seems to me sometimes that we have come a long way - down - from the middle ages. Anyway, I used to run out a lot of gas, spent an incredible number of unpaid hours reaching out to people - indeed, I still do. I cannot type, so the average response in this forum takes me 3 hours - to gain not a thing, neither money nor love. So , yes, my attitude now is that if someone actually wants a relationship of some sort with me , I AM NOT HARD TO FIND.
So I eagerly await your Christmas cards. Otherwise I’ll be busy talking too … well, you know.

Hmmm, are we not of incredible importance? Perhaps the cockroaches are a more compelling interest, or the theoretical Martians ?

However, I’m rather shocked that this thread got any response, much less 12 responses. Thank you for your interest.
:confused:

Type less and say more. What are you saying? I dont understand. Tell me like I am a 2 year old.

Do you have a beef with the Catholic Church and her teaching on this?

Make it clear for me - you speak in riddles.
 
Okay Junvir- its in Corinthians. I dont have time to get the actual verse now.

I had a busy day.

I will be happy to help you.

Purgatory is biblical. You may not agree, but that is fine.

Why did you ignore my other responses to you in that other thread if you were truly sincere?

You did not want an answer. I find that odd.
Perhaps this quote from C.S. Lewis will be helpful…

**"I believe in Purgatory… Our souls demand Purgatory, don’t they? Would it not break the heart if God said to us, ‘It is true, my son, that your breath smells and your rags drip with mud and slime, but we are charitable here and no one will upbraid you with these things, nor draw away from you. Enter into the joy’? Should we not reply, "With submission, sir, and if there is no objection, I’d rather be cleansed first.’ "It may hurt, you know’–“Even so, sir.’” **
 
Perhaps this quote from C.S. Lewis will be helpful…

**"I believe in Purgatory… Our souls demand Purgatory, don’t they? Would it not break the heart if God said to us, ‘It is true, my son, that your breath smells and your rags drip with mud and slime, but we are charitable here and no one will upbraid you with these things, nor draw away from you. Enter into the joy’? Should we not reply, "With submission, sir, and if there is no objection, I’d rather be cleansed first.’ "It may hurt, you know’–“Even so, sir.’” **
Isn’t Lewis wonderful?!?

His writings are what opened up Christianity for me. I had been a Christian since childhood, but so, so limited. Lewis changed my world. I would never have understood Catholicism had I not first learned to understand Lewis!
 
Kesa82 -

I just wanted to say that I don’t think you are “out there” because you always have the eternal (and everyone in it) before your mind, in your thoughts. And I know some here have critisized you for this as if it were an unhealthy obsession or something, I don’t believe this to be true, (although I don’t know you personally to verify this. 😉 )

Each of us is different, in the way we are “wired” so to speak. Some people are very practical minded, very task oriented. (chop chop) They want everyone to stay focused on the job at hand. Others are more etherial in the way they see life and relate to it. And there are many variations in between. And thank God He created us this way with such variety, or the world would be extremely boring!

I too, think about God and talk to Him in my thoughts throughout the day everyday, and I also send my thoughts “out there” to others in case they can perceive them. I don’t get too caught up in the theology of it all, because as far as I’m concerned, if they can’t hear me, no harm no foul, right? Now, just to be clear, I don’t actually wait around expecting get an answer or some kind of sign from them, you know what I mean? 😃 And I don’t think that’s what you’re saying either. You just send your thoughts out there to them, in case they can perceive them, right?

Don’t be too hard on yourself, or over analyze. We will all find out soon enough what is what, you know? Our earthly life is like a vapor in view of eternity. We’ll all find out soon enough!

God Bless.
 
:confused:

Type less and say more. What are you saying? I dont understand. Tell me like I am a 2 year old.

Do you have a beef with the Catholic Church and her teaching on this?

Make it clear for me - you speak in riddles.
concerning which point or points specifically ? One point that I can clarify - I guess - is that as far as I know I don’t have a beef with anyone. Certainly where groups or institutions are concerned, if I witheld my favor on the condition that we agree on every last possible detail I would never have joined ANY church, Which would have helped … whom ?
Mine is far too critical a mind to except any "party line " whole, and indeed, I cannot think of a single instance in my entire life where that happened.
One of the things I like about this forum is that we are somewhat annonymous, and we can discuss these things in abstract intellectual land - not in the middle of church.
 
Praying without ceasing is not what I understood to be conveyed here. Praying without ceasing refers to praying to God without ceasing–not communicating with the dead unceasingly or refusing to use the past tense regarding those who have passed on in order to make a theological point. (For something on prayer and praying without ceasing, see one of the articles referenced on my website.)

I also didn’t understand the reply of the earlier response. What does St Augustine have to do with this topic? Yes, he he experienced a wonderful conversion, but I think I am missing your point.

I would suggest you look at it this way… The communion of saints is there as truly (or more truly) than we see what is around us in the “real world”. We’re in agreement there. Where I think you’re heading off to the deep end, is when you suggest that our every move is observed and crtiqued by those above. (For one thing, unless they are saints, who are we to judge their eternal destination? Perhaps they are not where you assume them to be.) I think this view makes us more important than we are. Yes, the angels rejoice, but that does not cancel the fact that our value is rooted solely in the saving act of Christ. If the multitude are with Christ, their attention should be directed to Him–as well as ours down below. After all, all the world may be a stage of sorts, but that doesn’t mean that the world revolves around us.

Bottom line…praying without ceasing is great, but I don’t believe that’s what you’ve described at all. In life, we should be focused on what we are about, our eathly mission for God. As I alluded to earlier, I would suggest that you are perhaps too immersed in a world of your own creation, and you’re losing out on the real ministry opportunities elsewhere. Instead of speaking to the dead unceasinly, perhpahs find a lonely man or woman (in this life) who just needs someone to talk to…someone of flesh and blood. That’s why we’re here. There will be plenty of time for talking to the rest of “them” later, and you will know with certainty there with whom you’re speaking.
I should apologize to you. I think my response to you was a bit arrogant, pompous, and smart- a**ed. You have made good and valid points. I saw a movie version of the Glass Menagerie with John Malkovitch about 6 months ago , and I thought I was a lot like the crippled girl - except that a reclusive life does not bother me like it apparently bothered her. Perhaps I should describe more fully exactly how I live ? I live quite differently from the vast majority of Americans today. I live on a 50 acre farm. I have 4 dogs, two of whom sleep on my bed every night pushing me in the corner. I have two control-freak elderly parents who cannot do the work anymore. 15 - 20 acres is in forest, so there is always a dead / dangerous tree to take down or a huge dead limb falling in the road. There are two ponds with swamp gardens to manage. There are at present 32 goats. Goats are very smart, which is to say that they need constant attention because they get bored easily and have a mind of their own - and they love blueberry bushes, of which there are 36. The blueberry bushes cover an area of about a half acre, but there is nary a weed in the whole plot. Rules concerning graveyards are rather liberal in Tennessee so, like every other farm around here, there are 5 people buried here from the turn of the 19th/20th century. The graveyard was almost unrecognizable as such when we moved here. Needless to say, I also have the maintainance of a cemetery to see to as well. And I’m just getting started on exactly what stewardship of 50 acres actually means. So you see, I do live in my own little world, every good farmer does. And when you are down on your knees pulling pinkie-sized weeds out of a half-acre plot, it helps either to have the imagination of a cow, or a very rich, full imagination. I never married, but, good grief, that’s another essay!
 
dranzal,

thanks for the link you provided… it enlightened me about the rosary; however can you give me more links on how the rosary originated? in my search to be enligthened about my religion (catholic), my search brought me to the history of the Roman Catholic Church and it seems there were many doctrines adopted by the early leaders of the Church which were the result of voting by the cardinals… see how the council of nicea and other councils did these things as early as a.d. 325…
i want to strengthen my faith with enlightenment not “blind faith” as other folowers of various religious denominations do… forgive me for this…

so how did the rosary originated?

thanks
 
To Damascus,

I am a catholic but i am not a blind catholic I want faith that is enlightened not blind. the reason why i asked about purgatory because this is not found in the bible and i think you should open your mind on the passage of the bible in " **Eccl:12:7:Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it" ** to the open-minded man there is no other interpretation than …when man dies his body returns to dust and his spirit returns to God… there is no other place mentioned in the entire bible.

The soul is the wholeness of man …“Gn:2:7:
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.”
… not what we catholic usually think as something of a spirit…(that is if we believe in Genesis 2:7 quoted above)

So Mr Damascus, please explain to me about purgatory… because i cannot in my God given intellect accept this doctrine of our faith…

thanks

junvir… a struggling catholic who needs enligthenment
 
Okay Junvir- its in Corinthians. I dont have time to get the actual verse now.

I had a busy day.

I will be happy to help you.

Purgatory is biblical. You may not agree, but that is fine.

Why did you ignore my other responses to you in that other thread if you were truly sincere?

You did not want an answer. I find that odd.
 
To Damascus,

I haqve been lookinf for that other thread but I cannot find it… I’m new to this forum… can you tell me where to find it? it is entitled “asala walacum?” isn’t it? please help me so i can reply that thread…

on the the hand, you mentioned about purgatory can be found in corinthian? tell the the verse so i can enligthen myself.

please be specific and your answwer should be based on the bible and the doctrine of the Church not your own opinion.

thanks
 
Praying without ceasing is not what I understood to be conveyed here. Praying without ceasing refers to praying to God without ceasing–not communicating with the dead unceasingly or refusing to use the past tense regarding those who have passed on in order to make a theological point. (For something on prayer and praying without ceasing, see one of the articles referenced on my website.)

I also didn’t understand the reply of the earlier response. What does St Augustine have to do with this topic? Yes, he he experienced a wonderful conversion, but I think I am missing your point.

I would suggest you look at it this way… The communion of saints is there as truly (or more truly) than we see what is around us in the “real world”. We’re in agreement there. Where I think you’re heading off to the deep end, is when you suggest that our every move is observed and crtiqued by those above. (For one thing, unless they are saints, who are we to judge their eternal destination? Perhaps they are not where you assume them to be.) I think this view makes us more important than we are. Yes, the angels rejoice, but that does not cancel the fact that our value is rooted solely in the saving act of Christ. If the multitude are with Christ, their attention should be directed to Him–as well as ours down below. After all, all the world may be a stage of sorts, but that doesn’t mean that the world revolves around us.

Bottom line…praying without ceasing is great, but I don’t believe that’s what you’ve described at all. In life, we should be focused on what we are about, our eathly mission for God. As I alluded to earlier, I would suggest that you are perhaps too immersed in a world of your own creation, and you’re losing out on the real ministry opportunities elsewhere. Instead of speaking to the dead unceasinly, perhpahs find a lonely man or woman (in this life) who just needs someone to talk to…someone of flesh and blood. That’s why we’re here. There will be plenty of time for talking to the rest of “them” later, and you will know with certainty there with whom you’re speaking.
I couldn’t agree with you more about the reason for us
being here. It’s for reaching out to others, not talking to
the dead. When I pray, I pray to my Father who art in
heaven, like Jesus taught us to. Prayer to the saints only
distracts my focus, not enhances it. However I have noted
that this is not true for all, the Pope included. Who
reaches out to others more than he?

Even if we don’t actually know which of our loved ones are
in heaven, the ones who are there are there. They are with
the angels and Mary and all the saints. They are busy
rejoicing over every good thing. Sometimes we all do things
that make them happy. Important things that we may not
even know are important. For example, what if we were
way up high and saw a car coming fast right toward a child.
Supposing God sent an angel to tell someone to call that
child inside. The child listened, then the car went speeding
by, and the child was unharmed. We would be so happy.
What if we were up even higher than seeing the speeding
car? What if we were up so high that we saw what bar
the driver of that car was going into before he even got into
that car to go speeding crazily down that street? What if
God sent an angel to say to that man “no, don’t go in there
today”. What if he listened and didn’t go in that day? We
would be so happy.

The ones in heaven are way up high and they can see the
consequences of our actions before we do. It makes them
important, not us. But we are still vital to everything,
even every word we say on this forum.
 
To Damascus,

I haqve been lookinf for that other thread but I cannot find it… I’m new to this forum… can you tell me where to find it? it is entitled “asala walacum?” isn’t it? please help me so i can reply that thread…

on the the hand, you mentioned about purgatory can be found in corinthian? tell the the verse so i can enligthen myself.

please be specific and your answwer should be based on the bible and the doctrine of the Church not your own opinion.

thanks
A further argument is supplied by St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15:
“For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus. Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay stubble: Every man’s work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work, of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.” While this passage presents considerable difficulty, it is regarded by many of the Fathers and theologians as evidence for the existence of an intermediate state in which the dross of lighter transgressions will be burnt away, and the soul thus purified will be saved.

newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm
 
Isn’t Lewis wonderful?!?

His writings are what opened up Christianity for me. I had been a Christian since childhood, but so, so limited. Lewis changed my world. I would never have understood Catholicism had I not first learned to understand Lewis!
Yes, he’s a great writer. If you ever have a chance to read, Joseph Pearce’s book on Lewis and the Church, I recommend it.
 
I should apologize to you. I think my response to you was a bit arrogant, pompous, and smart- a**ed. You have made good and valid points. I saw a movie version of the Glass Menagerie with John Malkovitch about 6 months ago , and I thought I was a lot like the crippled girl - except that a reclusive life does not bother me like it apparently bothered her. Perhaps I should describe more fully exactly how I live ? I live quite differently from the vast majority of Americans today. I live on a 50 acre farm. I have 4 dogs, two of whom sleep on my bed every night pushing me in the corner. I have two control-freak elderly parents who cannot do the work anymore. 15 - 20 acres is in forest, so there is always a dead / dangerous tree to take down or a huge dead limb falling in the road. There are two ponds with swamp gardens to manage. There are at present 32 goats. Goats are very smart, which is to say that they need constant attention because they get bored easily and have a mind of their own - and they love blueberry bushes, of which there are 36. The blueberry bushes cover an area of about a half acre, but there is nary a weed in the whole plot. Rules concerning graveyards are rather liberal in Tennessee so, like every other farm around here, there are 5 people buried here from the turn of the 19th/20th century. The graveyard was almost unrecognizable as such when we moved here. Needless to say, I also have the maintainance of a cemetery to see to as well. And I’m just getting started on exactly what stewardship of 50 acres actually means. So you see, I do live in my own little world, every good farmer does. And when you are down on your knees pulling pinkie-sized weeds out of a half-acre plot, it helps either to have the imagination of a cow, or a very rich, full imagination. I never married, but, good grief, that’s another essay!
Thank you for the added clarification, Kesa82. Cool post. You paint an engaging picture of your life and surroundings–especially the goats! I’m also an animal lover, but just a cat, daughter’s fish, and son’s dwarf hamster around these parts. Take care, and I hope that God blesses you on your spiritual journey. …Not sure I’ll make it back to the Forums for a few days–flying down to TX for Christmas.
 
Perhaps this quote from C.S. Lewis will be helpful…

**"I believe in Purgatory… Our souls demand Purgatory, don’t they? Would it not break the heart if God said to us, ‘It is true, my son, that your breath smells and your rags drip with mud and slime, but we are charitable here and no one will upbraid you with these things, nor draw away from you. Enter into the joy’? Should we not reply, "With submission, sir, and if there is no objection, I’d rather be cleansed first.’ "It may hurt, you know’–“Even so, sir.’” **
 
who is C.S. lewis? is he just another tom, dick or harry? to make this thread informative, we should get quote from the bible or from the official stand of the vatican… not quoting some opinion from some unknown person.

i suggest to all those participating in this thread to use the bible as authority on things we want enlightened.
 
who is C.S. lewis? is he just another tom, dick or harry? to make this thread informative, we should get quote from the bible or from the official stand of the vatican… not quoting some opinion from some unknown person.

i suggest to all those participating in this thread to use the bible as authority on things we want enlightened.
As a Catholic, you know we dont just use the Bible, and the Vatican. We have writings from the ECF. And many of us like C.S.Lewis’ writings, as they explain things in our words.
 
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