Personal Question about NFP

[choose_to_love]

SaintSerafina, perhaps you could not hijack a thread in which the OP specifically asked about the practice of NFP within marriage, not whether its use is theologically justified, or under what circumstances.

Two, perhaps you are familiar with Humanae Vitae, in which recourse is the natural infertile times is specifically approved, and the definition of responsible parenthood contained therein, yes?

Three, I call bull. The “use of NFP is a factor in falling birth rates” - - source? How could you possibly prove this?

 

[samovila]

How, as a newly wed or even a couple together for years and years, can you say no to sex for half of a month or more? That gives you a time period of about 10 days a month. Couple that with a busy work schedule, kids to take care of, obligations outside of marriage…how is sex even possible with these methods?? (sorry if this is an offensive question…)

My cycles are extremely regular and my fertility signs are easy to read so there are only 4-5 days that we MUST abstain to avoid conception. If you count menstruation it’s about 10 days a month. In our own experience, NFP has worked beautifully. When we were newlyweds we were open to conceiving so there was no need to abstain. After our first was born we conceived again when she was 12 months old. It was not extremely important for us to avoid conceiving at that time so we played a little loose with the NFP rules and ended up with a beautiful baby boy when our daughter was 21 months old. Now they are ages 3 and 1 and, believe me, we are serious about avoiding conceiving right now due to the stress of having two little ones and just bought a new house and my husband just started a new job so it’s not hard at all to avoid intercourse during the 5 days or so we must abstain. When it becomes hard to abstain we will reconsider how important it is for us to avoid conceiving another baby. For us, when it’s difficult to abstain, that’s the first cue that we might be ready for another one. For us, when we have serious reasons for not conceiving it’s easy to say no to intercourse.

 

[jilly4ski]

My cycles are extremely regular and my fertility signs are easy to read so there are only 4-5 days that we MUST abstain to avoid conception. If you count menstruation it’s about 10 days a month. In our own experience, NFP has worked beautifully. When we were newlyweds we were open to conceiving so there was no need to abstain. After our first was born we conceived again when she was 12 months old. It was not extremely important for us to avoid conceiving at that time so we played a little loose with the NFP rules and ended up with a beautiful baby boy when our daughter was 21 months old. Now they are ages 3 and 1 and, believe me, we are serious about avoiding conceiving right now due to the stress of having two little ones and just bought a new house and my husband just started a new job so it’s not hard at all to avoid intercourse during the 5 days or so we must abstain. When it becomes hard to abstain we will reconsider how important it is for us to avoid conceiving another baby. For us, when it’s difficult to abstain, that’s the first cue that we might be ready for another one. For us, when we have serious reasons for not conceiving it’s easy to say no to intercourse.

I second this. We have not had a serious reason to avoid yet (though I suppose some might think so ) So I still use NFP to track my fertility, but didn’t use it specifically to achieve or avoid. We did sort of avoid right after my fertility came back at 8 months postpartum and we were only avoiding for 4-5 days when I had mucus and right after, but my DH talked me out of that one after a few months.

But really in a marriage there are lots of times when you abstain from sex. I am in my first trimester and sick a lot, I have finals, we are moving this week, and my son just had a surgery last week, so even though we don’t need to abstain to avoid a pregnancy, we are probably abstaining more now than when we were of trying to avoid (sort of) a few months ago. Sometimes it just works that way.

 

[micahmike]

OP - yes, it can be very, very difficult.

My wife and I used to contracept, before we married and while we were married. Now we (I) am trying to be the best Catholic that I can, I have been for several years now, and we’ve been using NFP. We have read every book and contacted every authority on the matter we can think of - and it doesn’t work for us. At all. Condoms worked to avoid pregnancy 100% of the time for us, NFP ZERO percent (calculating percentages based on observed pregnancy per year practicing). Also, we have sex maybe once day per month. My wife’s body does not work as others’ do apparently, and since our last 3 NFP failures, she is unwilling to take any risks.

Our sex life when we were contracepting was better. Our marriage was better when our sex life was better.

I do not have a low sex drive. I struggle with sexuual sins, namely lust and pornography, and following the Church’s teachings on contraception has not only been a great strain on our relationship, it’s resulted in my cross getting heavier still. Truth be told, it all gets me quite irked. The Church says:

Better to marry than burn with desire. So I marry. The Church says Don’t contracept. so I don’t, and good-faith NFP efforts fail us, and we have 4 kids in under 5 years - and I’m now effctively celibate, but still burning with the same desire as before I was married, only now my wife and I are overburdoned with more children than we can readily handle and she pretty much resents me for encouraging her to learn and use NFP instead of contraception.

To be honest, I’d hit a rest button if given a choice. and being that I’m not given that choice, I think I’d probably off myself if I didn’t have children depending on me and a God that’d likely let me wallow in a lake of fire for eternity if I did.

I wish that the Church was more honest - and I think it did used to be more honest. “Follow these rules or be tortured. following the rules is a sort of torture, but hey, at least it isn’t permanent. Crosses aren’t light and the gate isn’t wide.” The “Good News”, it seems to me, is that there’s an out at the end and that it will all stop sucking after we die. I hear some speak of the happiness that comes wioth keeping God’s commands. Hasn’t worked that way for me. I’m miserable (due to guilt and the knowledge that I have no reason to be expecting heaven when I die) if I sin and I am miserable when I mannage to keep His commands. I tend to think of my sexual appetite as a thorn, not a gift. No joy has really come from it - only guilt and angst. The one bight side, if you can call it that, is that messing up and falling into sin gives me a reason to come crawling back to Confession.

 

[Jennifer_J]

OP - yes, it can be very, very difficult.

My wife and I used to contracept, before we married and while we were married. Now we (I) am trying to be the best Catholic that I can, I have been for several years now, and we’ve been using NFP. We have read every book and contacted every authority on the matter we can think of - and it doesn’t work for us. .

There are 3 “varieties” of NFP:
Sympto Thermal (ccli.org or nfpandmore.com)–Mucous/Temp/Cervic–Mucous/Temp/Cervic) position

Billings (boma-usa.org) or Creighton (creightonmodel.com)–Mucous–Mucous) only, Creighton is a medical model, very standardized you must learn from a medical professional/trained person

Marquette Method: (nfp.marquette.edu/nfp_quick_inst_intro.php) that combines STM with a fertility monitor

I have no idea why NFP has failed for you previously, but I would suggest looking at a different version of NFP–esp the Marquette Method. Not all methods work for all couples.

For what it’s worth, I think NFP is much harder when a couple has contracepted previously, I know it was for us. After nearly 16 years of marriage, we’re much better.

 

[micahmike]

Thanks for your concern, but it is not a matter of us not doing our diligence. We studied (and continue to study) the available methods to the extent practical. It is safe to say that we wree both experts on the subject.

 

[Jennifer_J]

Thanks for your concern, but it is not a matter of us not doing our diligence. We studied (and continue to study) the available methods to the extent practical. It is safe to say that we wree both experts on the subject.

I in no way meant to say you didn’t know what you were doing. I was just putting the info out there. Sometimes people aren’t aware of one of the methods. It’s always good to make sure by simply posting the info.

 

[Socio_Momma]

We use the Marquette Method, linked a few posts above. It’s helped us tremendously in figuring out the fertility signals. We don’t abstain as many days as the OP quoted. However, we don’t contracept, because we don’t go against (contra) the natural order (ception) there is a difference between NFP & contraception. Instead we prayerfully consider the information NFP gives us to decide on whether or not to abstain for a short time period while working with the natural order God has given us. It doesn’t mean it’s always easy in terms of our emotions when you have a serious reason to abstain for this time, but it does mean we are continually looking to God throughout it to help us understand His Will.

 

[Calliso]

You know, there is pressure of a certain kind if you practice NFP to have sex during the infertile times, if you are trying to avoid.

But, conversely, there is a total lack of pressure during the fertile times. We can cuddle, lay together, have skin to skin contact, but we know it’s just for closeness, not one of us trying to get the other in the mood. It’s incredibly freeing to be able to be physically close and not have to have sex. Example - it’s not, “Why is he rubbing my back like that”,but simply, “Ah, backrub - that’s relaxing”

Don’t get me wrong, abstinence isn’t easy, but there are rewards that come with the lifestyle. Knowing that you are going to bed and going to sleep, and no one will feel rejected, is sometimes all you want after a hard day, you know?

I can see what your saying…but I guess the way I see it is at least for a woman wouldn;t the fertile times be the times where you were most likely to want the cuddling and backrubs to lead to sex? And during the nonfertile times when with nfp unless you want a child are the only times you can have sex, I think those would be the times you would be more likely to say ok…I am not really in the mood for sex right now…lets just keep this to a simple backrub ok? Yet I imagine it would be hard to say no without feeling bad because you know you donlt have many chances to have sex…especially if you already have kids.

 

[Calliso]

OP - yes, it can be very, very difficult.

My wife and I used to contracept, before we married and while we were married. Now we (I) am trying to be the best Catholic that I can, I have been for several years now, and we’ve been using NFP. We have read every book and contacted every authority on the matter we can think of - and it doesn’t work for us. At all. Condoms worked to avoid pregnancy 100% of the time for us, NFP ZERO percent (calculating percentages based on observed pregnancy per year practicing). Also, we have sex maybe once day per month. My wife’s body does not work as others’ do apparently, and since our last 3 NFP failures, she is unwilling to take any risks.

Our sex life when we were contracepting was better. Our marriage was better when our sex life was better.

I do not have a low sex drive. I struggle with sexuual sins, namely lust and pornography, and following the Church’s teachings on contraception has not only been a great strain on our relationship, it’s resulted in my cross getting heavier still. Truth be told, it all gets me quite irked. The Church says:

Better to marry than burn with desire. So I marry. The Church says Don’t contracept. so I don’t, and good-faith NFP efforts fail us, and we have 4 kids in under 5 years - and I’m now effctively celibate, but still burning with the same desire as before I was married, only now my wife and I are overburdoned with more children than we can readily handle and she pretty much resents me for encouraging her to learn and use NFP instead of contraception.

To be honest, I’d hit a rest button if given a choice. and being that I’m not given that choice, I think I’d probably off myself if I didn’t have children depending on me and a God that’d likely let me wallow in a lake of fire for eternity if I did.

I wish that the Church was more honest - and I think it did used to be more honest. “Follow these rules or be tortured. following the rules is a sort of torture, but hey, at least it isn’t permanent. Crosses aren’t light and the gate isn’t wide.” The “Good News”, it seems to me, is that there’s an out at the end and that it will all stop sucking after we die. I hear some speak of the happiness that comes wioth keeping God’s commands. Hasn’t worked that way for me. I’m miserable (due to guilt and the knowledge that I have no reason to be expecting heaven when I die) if I sin and I am miserable when I mannage to keep His commands. I tend to think of my sexual appetite as a thorn, not a gift. No joy has really come from it - only guilt and angst. The one bight side, if you can call it that, is that messing up and falling into sin gives me a reason to come crawling back to Confession.

And this is one of the big reasons I donlt use nfp…cause everytime I am tempted I read stories like yours and think to myself…sheesh abstinence is easier to deal with then that stuff.

 

[PaulinVA]

I can see what your saying…but I guess the way I see it is at least for a woman wouldn;t the fertile times be the times where you were most likely to want the cuddling and backrubs to lead to sex? And during the nonfertile times when with nfp unless you want a child are the only times you can have sex, I think those would be the times you would be more likely to say ok…I am not really in the mood for sex right now…lets just keep this to a simple backrub ok? Yet I imagine it would be hard to say no without feeling bad because you know you donlt have many chances to have sex…especially if you already have kids.

Yes, the woman is more interested naturally when she is fertile.

I don’t know - every couple is different. I was just mentioning one benefit that we see. It is hard to get into a rhythm rolleyes when you are practicing NFP, but once you do, you learn what you can and can’t do.

NFP does put a little more pressure to have sex during the non-fertile times if you are trying to avoid. That leads to less pressure during the times you are fertile, which is nice if you think so.

 

[FrenchGwen]

Yes, naturally, the woman feels more interested when she is fertile.
BUT with NFP I found that this wasn’t really a problem anymore after some time: once I had truly integrated that this was a “no go” time, and that the “go” time was coming, I got into the habit of getting interested, not because I was fertile, but because I COULD.
And obviously, from discussions I had with close friends, I’m no exception.

It is really so: NFP takes time to settle in, you have to find your rythm, your “routine”, learn to “schedule” some “high-quality snuggle” time during infertile time, and use fertile time to meet friends, go out, have relatives overnight in your non-insonorized guest bedromm, be “just” tender, or watch DVDs. Once you’ve got used to it, it’s not that hard anymore !
On the contrary, in a modern life which tends to be so full of so many things, that days go past and you just never get to the point where you can enjoy intimacy, NFP is a very, very precious reminder that you have to set aside time to enjoy this.

In fact, during my first months of marriage I was looking forward to switching to TTC and then getting pregnant : 9 months of “infertile time” !!! Now, I’ve changed my perspective: 9 months of infertile time (besides the fact that I am now aware of possible difficulties that come with a pregnancy) will definitely count as a downside of pregnancy, since we might be less careful about preserving some time for intimacy as this will always be available.

 

[AnotherChance]

SaintSerafina;6645150:

Catholics can trust God with everything else but they don’t believe that God will send them the amount of children that they can handle. Seems hypocritical to me…

I am more suspicious that some of the people who criticize NFP (not you,SS) may be doing so because of their own contraceptive use, wanting to equate the two–even though the Church doesn’t. The users of NFP that I have encountered on this forum indeed do seem to believe that God will send them the amount of children they can handle. The disproportionate number of extremely wealthy middle-aged Catholic parents of only one child that I encountered at my daughter’s former Catholic school–not so much.

 

[AnotherChance]

My wife's body does not work as others' do apparently, and since our last 3 NFP failures, she is unwilling to take any risks...

I do not have a low sex drive. I struggle with sexuual sins, namely lust and pornography, and following the Church’s teachings on contraception has not only been a great strain on our relationship, it’s resulted in my cross getting heavier still. Truth be told, it all gets me quite irked. The Church says:

Better to marry than burn with desire. So I marry. The Church says Don’t contracept. so I don’t, and good-faith NFP efforts fail us, and we have 4 kids in under 5 years - and I’m now effctively celibate, but still burning with the same desire as before I was married, only now my wife and I are overburdoned with more children than we can readily handle and she pretty much resents me for encouraging her to learn and use NFP instead of contraception…

… I tend to think of my sexual appetite as a thorn, not a gift. No joy has really come from it - only guilt and angst. The one bight side, if you can call it that, is that messing up and falling into sin gives me a reason to come crawling back to Confession.

I will pray for you. It sounds like there are a lot of difficulties here. Do you and your wife have a support system through family or church to help with the kids?

What also strikes me about this post is that the person who wants to avoid children the most (in your case, your wife–in my case, my husband) often causes a lot of stress for their spouse. You don’t seem like you want to avoid more children as much as she does. I am the same way, but I am trying to accomodate my husband’s extreme financial fear of having more kids. From what I have read and observed, NFP seems to work better when both spouses are on pretty much the same page about whether or not they are ready to welcome more of God’s blessings.

 

[PaulinVA]

I am more suspicious that some of the people who criticize NFP (not you,SS) may be doing so because of their own contraceptive use, wanting to equate the two–even though the Church doesn’t. The users of NFP that I have encountered on this forum indeed do seem to believe that God will send them the amount of children they can handle. The disproportionate number of extremely wealthy middle-aged Catholic parents of only one child that I encountered at my daughter’s former Catholic school–not so much.

 

[PaulinVA]

   		 			 				 					Originally Posted by **SaintSerafina** 					[forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=6645150#post6645150) 				
  		*Catholics can trust God with  everything else but they don't believe that God will send them the  amount of children that they can handle. Seems hypocritical to me...*

I will pray for you. It sounds like there are a lot of difficulties here. Do you and your wife have a support system through family or church to help with the kids?

What also strikes me about this post is that the person who wants to avoid children the most (in your case, your wife–in my case, my husband) often causes a lot of stress for their spouse. You don’t seem like you want to avoid more children as much as she does. I am the same way, but I am trying to accomodate my husband’s extreme financial fear of having more kids. From what I have read and observed, NFP seems to work better when both spouses are on pretty much the same page about whether or not they are ready to welcome more of God’s blessings.

Well, we know that we are* co-creators* with God. When we have sex, the natural, biological result is to create a baby,* with God.* I don’t really think that God frustrates the natural result if He thinks you are unable to care for that child. If that was the case, there would be no crack babies, no babies born to 15 year old mothers.

Likewise, I don’t think He frustrates the natural result of sex during the infertile time to create a baby. You might misinterpret the infertile time, but I don’t hink he routinely frustrates or acts contrary to the biological rules he has put in place.

When you have sex, you are opening yourself, declaring yourself willing, to accept the natural result of that coupling. Being a co-creator if the biology is right.

 

[sanctareparata]

Here’s where I have a problem. The Church can do many things, but it cannot redefine words to fit its own notions. Without words with clear and unchanging definitions, we cannot communicate effectively as people. NFP is a sexual practice designed to prevent pregnancy, therefore contraceptive. I don’t understand what “context” I’m missing here.

NFP is not a sexual practice. “Sexual practices” are acts of sex. NFP is merely *information *- charting, reading signs, taking temps, etc. It is not sexual at all. A woman can do it entirely alone without involving her husband in any way.

People take the information NFP provides and do with it what they want. We used NFP to *conceive *two of our children, as many, **many do, so no, NFP is not “contraceptive.” It is INFORMATION.

Contraceptive means “preventing conception.” Not having sex is not contraceptive. As an unmarried virgin, do you believe that you are contracepting? After all, you are too preventing conception. Is a woman whose husband is deployed contracepting? Of course not. You cannot contracept if you aren’t having sex.

 

[AnotherChance]

Contraceptive means “preventing conception.” Not having sex is not contraceptive. As an unmarried virgin, do you believe that you are contracepting? After all, you are too preventing conception. Is a woman whose husband is deployed contracepting? Of course not. You cannot contracept if you aren’t having sex.

I have read lots of explanations about why NFP is not contraception. But this one is the most concise and convincing I have seen.

 

[micahmike]

I will pray for you. It sounds like there are a lot of difficulties here. Do you and your wife have a support system through family or church to help with the kids?

We do have people who occasionally take a child or two overnight, yes. They are a great blessing to us.

What also strikes me about this post is that the person who wants to avoid children the most (in your case, your wife–in my case, my husband) often causes a lot of stress for their spouse. You don’t seem like you want to avoid more children as much as she does. I am the same way, but I am trying to accomodate my husband’s extreme financial fear of having more kids. From what I have read and observed, NFP seems to work better when both spouses are on pretty much the same page about whether or not they are ready to welcome more of God’s blessings.

I merely don’t want any more kids, but I wouldn’t cry if I learned that my wife were pregnant today (well I might, as the father certainly wouldn’t be me!) My wife absolutely positively is not willing to gamble with NFP again. She is not opposed to contracepting (which has worked without fail for us, I am not willing to use anything other than NFP to prevent conception, though it has a 100% failure rate for us.

Thank you very much for your prayers. I will pray for you as well

 

[The_Bucket]

Let me be quite frank; if you’ve had four kids in five years with NFP… you’re not doing it right. I know every woman is different. I know that signs can be ambiguous. I’m dealing with that personally. We’ve had two kids in three years; first child was conceived not two months into our marriage and the second was just over four months after the birth of our first.

Now our son is two and our daughter will be one on Saturday. This time around my wife has not yet returned to fertility due to breastfeeding; no period even 12 months later. Of course, that’s no guarantee that she’s not about to ovulate soon… this ambiguous period of the last six months since LAM stopped being “safe” has not been particularly easy. But we’re fairly confident that following Phase I rules combined with continued breastfeeding is effective. Of course, there aren’t a ton of days in a row without background CM so yes, we’ve had to deal with several periods of weeks “apart” to be safer. It’s weird how we’re now both hoping her fertility returns just so we can get back to having a Phase III.

Bottom line: Unless you caught the first egg every time inside of six months/before first period using LAM (which is at least 98.5% effective regardless of other signs) you weren’t doing it right. Our first was born very early so there was no LAM; menstruation resumed 3.5 months after his birth. And yes, I know the exact date our little girl was conceived and yes, we did not follow the rules. NFP didn’t fail, we just didn’t follow the rules that one time. Of course, one time is all it takes… though I wouldn’t trade my daughter for anything! So look into different models of NFP, including LAM if you have a child less than six months of age who has been exclusively breast-fed to this point, and then choose the absolute most conservative method. Use ovulation test strips as double confirmation that ovulation takes place so you know when you’re in Phase III if she’s returned to fertility.

Will it be easy? No. But once you’re “home free” in Phase III, man it will be like honeymoon time all over again, for both of you!