Personal Relationship With Jesus Christ

[Eruvande]

Time was, I’d be all about a ‘personal relationship’ but things change. I think I still have it, but it’s been dampened by a lot of things. One thing I notice is that it’s all cerebral - I’m so concerned to have all my ducks in a row theologically that it remains very much in the head rather than the heart.

One thing that appeals about catholicism is the tangible elements to the relationship - confession, eucharist and so forth. It takes it out of the head and into the heart. I envy that.

 

[ReginaCoeli]

Another way I know I have a personal relationship with Christ is that I try hard to show love to others like Christ did; of course, I’m always way off the mark, but i sincerely try. I also try to see Christ in those people I encounter and treat them accordingly. If I didn’t have a relationship with Jesus, I wouldn’t care about doing these things. It’s because of my relationship with him that I try so hard to be Christ-like in all my endeavors. But again, I fall miserably short. Before I had a relationship with Christ, I didn’t think this way. So that is evidence of the Holy Spirit, and Jesus working in my life. I’m so grateful for this gift. I pray everyday for an increase in the gift of faith.

 

[stewstew03]

Jesus said we would know them by their fruits. He also said there will be people who do great things in his name who do not know him. Thus, affiliation with a church is not enough. Christ has to be real to us, and that is what is meant by the term personal relationship…It is those who know Jesus, who love and listen for his voice who devote themselves to his work.

Very articulate response. So another term for “personal relationship with Jesus Christ” is “devoted follower of Christ”? If so, I don’t understand why some evangelical protestants try to proselytize Catholics on the premise that the latter do not possess a personal relationship with our Lord and Savior.

 

[JustaServant]

Time was, I’d be all about a ‘personal relationship’ but things change. I think I still have it, but it’s been dampened by a lot of things. One thing I notice is that it’s all cerebral - I’m so concerned to have all my ducks in a row theologically that it remains very much in the head rather than the heart.
One thing that appeals about catholicism is the tangible elements to the relationship - confession, eucharist and so forth. It takes it out of the head and into the heart. I envy that.

My friend you have hit the nail on the head.
Worship involves the WHOLE BODY, not just the brain or emotions.
When the Eucharist is removed from a Christian’s life, they are forever trying to find something to replace it with.

 

[AmateurPianist]

“Personal relationship with Jesus” just means exactly that. I have a relationship with Jesus Christ, and it is personal, intimate. It is a relationship that is as real as any I have on earth. I have faith in him, I trust him, and I love him. I receive his love and his kindness and his goodness. Relationship means that I communicate with him.

What evangelical Protestants criticize is nominal Christianity (whether it be Catholic or Protestant). What we criticize are those Christians who do not have a relationship with Jesus, who do not know him, or ever really think about him or allow any room in their lives for him. These are those Christians who might be baptized or confirmed or on a church’s official membership roll but in their hearts they do not know Jesus. They do not speak to him or listen to him. They do not cultivate any devotion to him.

This!

 

[ltwin]

Very articulate response. So another term for “personal relationship with Jesus Christ” is “devoted follower of Christ”? If so, I don’t understand why some evangelical protestants try to proselytize Catholics on the premise that the latter do not possess a personal relationship with our Lord and Savior.

Fundamentalists, I think, truly wouldn’t consider the Catholic Church a true church. Most evangelicals, I think, will acknowledge the Catholic Church as a truly Christian church which has some theological and practical elements which are questionable.

I think the problem is that a lot of evangelicals do not understand Catholic theology. Therefore, when evangelicals hear that Catholics believe that baptism, communion, and confession are means of grace and that these things operate automatically, evangelicals fear that Catholics practice an check-list faith: baptism-check, communion-check, confession-check, have a nice day and come again soon. Many Catholics, it must be said, seemingly validate many of their fears. So when they meet a Catholic who is not very engaged in their faith, they see a soul that needs Jesus to be real to them.

 

[stewstew03]

Fundamentalists, I think, truly wouldn’t consider the Catholic Church a true church. Most evangelicals, I think, will acknowledge the Catholic Church as a truly Christian church which has some theological and practical elements which are questionable.

I think the problem is that a lot of evangelicals do not understand Catholic theology. Therefore, when evangelicals hear that Catholics believe that baptism, communion, and confession are means of grace and that these things operate automatically, evangelicals fear that Catholics practice an check-list faith: baptism-check, communion-check, confession-check, have a nice day and come again soon. Many Catholics, it must be said, seemingly validate many of their fears. So when they meet a Catholic who is not very engaged in their faith, they see a soul that needs Jesus to be real to them.

It’s true, many Catholics validate certain misconceptions. At the same time, evangelical protestants don’t realize how much they have in common with Catholics. After all, a southern baptist, for example, will not receive “grace” (or even salvation) without baptism by immersion, saying the sinner’s prayer, singing praise music, and attending church. To be sure, the nomenclature used by evangelical protestants is different, but a southern baptist who doesn’t perform these works is looked upon with skepticism. Speaking more broadly, if an evangelical protestant fails to show evidence of their “personal relationship” with Jesus Christ, that is, there is no outward expression of emotion during worship or there is no public proclamation of their faith, their salvation is called into question.

 

[eo_chibears]

What is it? And what is the standard for determining whether one has it?

[Primarily a question for protestant evangelicals - I hear this term “personal relationship with JC” quite a bit, but looking for an operational definition.]

Praying has opened my personal relationship with Jesus Christ. You will know if you have a personal relationship with him or not, for me it’s through prayer.

 

[Cat]

I completely agree that the Christian life is more than just saying the sinner’s prayer and then believing you are saved forever - great point Richard.

However, why do evangelicals take the position that this personal relationship, or this solid foundation, can only be found outside the Catholic Church? After all, where did Jesus build his “house”? [hint: see http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2016:18&version=NASB”] Matthew 16:18

] What did Paul say was the pillar and foundation of truth? [hint: see http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Timothy%203:15&version=NASB”] 1 Timothy 3:15]

Evangelicals presume that the following “good works” bring them closer to a relationship with Jesus Christ:

1. 
   *]saying sinner’s prayer;
   *]baptismal immersion
   *]singing in church and raising hands in the air;
   *]tithing (giving 10%).
   
   However, when they see Catholics praying the Rosary, or participating in the Eucharist, they shun these acts as invalid forms of worship because they allegedly don’t reflect a “personal relationship” with Jesus Christ. So, I’m curious as to why the “evangelical protestant” form of worship supposedly results in a personal relationship, while the Catholic form is seen as impersonal…?
   
   First, not all evangelicals think badly of Catholics. So don’t make any assumptions. A lot of evangelicals admire Catholics, mainly because of the unwavering devotion to the pro-life cause. Dr. Dobson has said many times that Catholics have put Protestants to shame when it comes to defending the right to life of the unborn and other helpless human beings.
   
   But in answer to your question, sadly, the reason why evangelicals think that Catholics have an impersonal relationship with Jesus is that the Catholics they know show no evidence of being holy. Many Catholics continue to live a life of sin (e.g., co-habiting, having abortions, drunkenness, etc.). Knowing Jesus seems to make no difference in their lives.
   
   Yes, of course evangelicals do these things, too, but if anyone finds out about it, they are “shunned” from the fellowship. Most evangelicals who do any of these sins will not attend church because they know that they will not be included in the fellowship, or that at best, people will treat them with sorrow.
   
   But Catholics who are co-habiting or having abortions or getting drunk just go right ahead and attend Mass and even receive Holy Communion, and they argue that they are “following their conscience.”
   
   And then there are the Catholics who are not involved in blatant or serious sin, but they just don’t have any real joy in their lives, or interest in the things of God. Yes, they go to Mass, purely out of obligation. They don’t read the Bible or say any private prayers, other than “If you help me out of this jam, Lord, I’ll go to church every week.” They know nothing about their faith, or about Jesus, and they have no interest in learning.
   
   The book of Revelation speaks about “lukewarm Christians,” and says that the Lord spits them out. (Revelation 3: 14-16). So no wonder evangelical Christians, who are often full of the joy of the Lord and enthusiastic about spiritual things, are not sure that Catholics who are “lukewarm” are really Christians or not.
   
   Another answer to the question has to do with evangelical “culture”. Evangelical Protestantism is not just a “denomination” or “religion.” It is an entire culture, and one that is often characterized by “fortress” thinking. (See books by John Fisher). This means that the evangelical Protestant generally does not leave the “fortress” of their evangelical culture, and that the only people they spend significant time with are fellow evangelicals, and they do “evangelical” activities and live by a set of unwritten “evangelical” rules…
   
   These rules include both the negatives e.g., no drinking, no dancing, no swearing (not even “Oh, my God!”), no secular media, etc.; and the positives, e.g., a daily Quiet Time (reading the Bible and praying), participation in a group Bible study, tithing, reading of Christian popular books, listening to Christian music, etc.
   
   When other Christians don’t do the things that are part of the evangelical culture, some evangelicals think that this means that those people aren’t “real” Christians or maybe that they are Christians, but that they don’t have a personal relationship with Jesus.
   
   Evangelicals who are actually “out of the fortress” learn that Christians can still be very deeply close to Jesus even if they don’t live out “evangelical culture.” But those evangelicals who are entrenched in their “culture” don’t realize this yet.
   
   I hope these answers are helpful to you.

 

[JustaServant]

]First, not all evangelicals think badly of Catholics. So don’t make any assumptions. A lot of evangelicals admire Catholics, mainly because of the unwavering devotion to the pro-life cause. Dr. Dobson has said many times that Catholics have put Protestants to shame when it comes to defending the right to life of the unborn and other helpless human beings.

**[ALAN] COLMES: You are participating in an event this Sunday, “Justice Sunday.” And among those there will be Dr. Alan [sic] Mohler of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary who said a few years ago, “As an evangelical, I believe that the Roman Catholic Church is a false church. It teaches a false gospel. And the Pope himself holds a false and unbiblical office.”

Are you concerned about the anti-Catholicism of some of the people you are participating with to fight the filibuster?

DOBSON: Well, first of all, he [Mohler] did not make a vehement anti-Catholic statement. He’s a Southern Baptist, for Pete’s sake.

You expect a Southern Baptist to say that he does not honor the pope in the same way the Catholics do. It’s a different theology. Is that not right? That’s not an attack on the Catholic Church.**

Nice dodge from James Dobson.

But in answer to your question, sadly, the reason why evangelicals think that Catholics have an impersonal relationship with Jesus is that the Catholics they know show no evidence of being holy. Many Catholics continue to live a life of sin (e.g., co-habiting, having abortions, drunkenness, etc.). Knowing Jesus seems to make no difference in their lives.

Yes, of course evangelicals do these things, too, but if anyone finds out about it, they are “shunned” from the fellowship. Most evangelicals who do any of these sins will not attend church because they know that they will not be included in the fellowship, or that at best, people will treat them with sorrow.

Evangelicals are simply more secretive in thier sins. What’s more, they might be ‘shunned’ but they are still considered christian because they “prayed the prayer” on such and such a date. Their salvation is “event salvation” and totally incompatible with what the Church has taught for 2000 years. The drunken, co-habiting, abortion loving evangelical is often labled NSITFP (never “saved” in the first place), meaning the “event” didn’t “take”.
But that drunken, co-habiting, abortion loving Catholic is STILL Catholic. His salvation may be in jeapordy, so we PRAY for him, not “shun” him.

And then there are the Catholics who are not involved in blatant or serious sin, but they just don’t have any real joy in their lives, or interest in the things of God. Yes, they go to Mass, purely out of obligation. They don’t read the Bible or say any private prayers, other than “If you help me out of this jam, Lord, I’ll go to church every week.” They know nothing about their faith, or about Jesus, and they have no interest in learning.

As a former Baptist pastor I can tell you I met more than a few Baptists as you discribe.
It’s called the human sin nature.
This is the problem with the evangelical mindset, they are looking for a perfect Utopia filled with perfect people.
Welcome to the human race.

The book of Revelation speaks about “lukewarm Christians,” and says that the Lord spits them out. (Revelation 3: 14-16). So no wonder evangelical Christians, who are often full of the joy of the Lord and enthusiastic about spiritual things, are not sure that Catholics who are “lukewarm” are really Christians or not

.
And I could say the same for evangelicals.

 

[stewstew03]

First, not all evangelicals think badly of Catholics. So don’t make any assumptions.

Assumptions based on experience should count for something. Of course, there are always outliers in any population.

Many Catholics continue to live a life of sin (e.g., co-habiting, having abortions, drunkenness, etc.). Knowing Jesus seems to make no difference in their lives.

Unfortunately this is true for many who call themselves Christian.

If anyone finds out about it, they are “shunned” from the fellowship.

True to an extent. Those who don’t repent will be looked upon with skepticism. I wouldn’t say this is true for someone trying to turn away from sin. (Speaking as someone who was an evangelical protestant before converting).

But Catholics who are co-habiting or having abortions or getting drunk just go right ahead and attend Mass and even receive Holy Communion, and they argue that they are “following their conscience.”

Tragic… but again, this is not unique to Catholicism. I’ve known many “believers” who live a life of sin and yet call themselves followers of Christ.

These rules include both the negatives e.g., no drinking, no dancing, no swearing (not even “Oh, my God!”), no secular media, etc.; and the positives, e.g., a daily Quiet Time (reading the Bible and praying), participation in a group Bible study, tithing, reading of Christian popular books, listening to Christian music, etc.

Agreed - and this is where evangelical protestants fail to recognize the significance they place on their “good works.”

When other Christians don’t do the things that are part of the evangelical culture, some evangelicals think that this means that those people aren’t “real” Christians or maybe that they are Christians, but that they don’t have a personal relationship with Jesus.

I think this is it in a nutshell! In other words, when an evangelical protestant says “personal relationship with Jesus Christ” it means "you’re not worshiping Jesus the way that I want you to worship Jesus!"

I hope these answers are helpful to you.

Kudos!

 

[ltwin]

Evangelicals are simply more secretive in thier sins. What’s more, they might be ‘shunned’ but they are still considered christian because they “prayed the prayer” on such and such a date. Their salvation is “event salvation” and totally incompatible with what the Church has taught for 2000 years.

You make broad assumptions about what evangelicals believe. Maybe you should read the entire post where evangelicals have spoken about there opinions of “event salvation.”

The drunken, co-habiting, abortion loving evangelical is often labled NSITFP (never “saved” in the first place), meaning the “event” didn’t “take”.

Nope. They are labeled “backsliders” who have walked away from Jesus and need to return to him. They exercised their free will to respond to God’s grace. Later they exercised their free will to give themselves over to sin. Any “shunning” that takes place is not for those who admit their failings and repent. If anyone is “shunned” it is because they are known to be in open blatant sin and REFUSE to repent.

But that drunken, co-habiting, abortion loving Catholic is STILL Catholic. His salvation may be in jeapordy, so we PRAY for him, not “shun” him.

This is what evangelicals believe as well. But if someone is known to be shacking-up or getting drunk we are going to tell them that they are living in sin and need to get right with Jesus. There salvation is in doubt, and we wont give them any false sense of security. We will not simply say “They are still Christian” if they show no evidence in their life of being a Christian. Their is an inner witness that one is a Christian, but there is also an outward evidence as that person is transformed into Christ’s likeness.

 

[Miriam1947]

You make broad assumptions about what evangelicals believe. Maybe you should read the entire post where evangelicals have spoken about there opinions of “event salvation.”

Nope. They are labeled “backsliders” who have walked away from Jesus and need to return to him. They exercised their free will to respond to God’s grace. Later they exercised their free will to give themselves over to sin. Any “shunning” that takes place is not for those who admit their failings and repent. If anyone is “shunned” it is because they are known to be in open blatant sin and REFUSE to repent.

This is what evangelicals believe as well. But if someone is known to be shacking-up or getting drunk we are going to tell them that they are living in sin and need to get right with Jesus. There salvation is in doubt, and we wont give them any false sense of security. We will not simply say “They are still Christian” if they show no evidence in their life of being a Christian. Their is an inner witness that one is a Christian, but there is also an outward evidence as that person is transformed into Christ’s likeness.

Are unrepentant sinners allowed to go to your church?

 

[Cat]

You make broad assumptions about what evangelicals believe. Maybe you should read the entire post where evangelicals have spoken about there opinions of “event salvation.”

Nope. They are labeled “backsliders” who have walked away from Jesus and need to return to him. They exercised their free will to respond to God’s grace. Later they exercised their free will to give themselves over to sin. Any “shunning” that takes place is not for those who admit their failings and repent. If anyone is “shunned” it is because they are known to be in open blatant sin and REFUSE to repent.

This is what evangelicals believe as well. But if someone is known to be shacking-up or getting drunk we are going to tell them that they are living in sin and need to get right with Jesus. There salvation is in doubt, and we wont give them any false sense of security. We will not simply say “They are still Christian” if they show no evidence in their life of being a Christian. Their is an inner witness that one is a Christian, but there is also an outward evidence as that person is transformed into Christ’s likeness.

This was my experience in evangelical churches also.

 

[Cat]

I simply have to speak up and defend my evangelical Protestant friends and acquaintances.

I’ve known literally thousands of evangelicals in my 54 years, and I would say that I know several hundred “up close and personal.”

In all those years, I have seen only a handful of evangelical Protestants involved in serious “secret sin.”

I have known quite a few evangelical Protestants who got caught in the meshes of addictive sins such as alcoholism, sex sins, gluttony, drugs, etc., but they agonized over their weaknesses, and shared their struggles with the rest of the church members, and fought against their sin, and many did succeed in getting well, although some didn’t.

But for the most part, the evangelical Protestants that I have known over the years are literally the salt of the earth, as stalwart and wholly good and openly kind-hearted and loving as the saints of old. They are deeply devoted to Jesus and the study of the Bible, generous with their time and money, tender-hearted, rich in good works, especially works which help those in need (Catholics would call these the “corporal works of mercy”), and full of action-oriented love for their fellow man, both Christian and non-Christian.

I realize that some of you have had some very bad experiences with evangelical Protestants. Well, so have I. In 2002, after seven years of good, hard-working service to the congregation, i and my husband were kicked out of our final evangelical Protestant church. We had to face a tribunal, packed with people that we had never met and who didn’t know us, and we were tried, condemned, and ousted, and then shunned. The accusations were utterly false; in fact, the woman pastor who accused us was fired a year later after she was caught in a lie. (Apparently she had lied her way through much of her life.)

My daughters stopped attending church after this. As my older daughter said, “Mom, if they treated you and Dad like this after all you’ve done and given to the church, how could they ever put up with me?”

Eventually she converted to Catholicism, too.

But my younger daughter still does not attend church. She and her husband profess belief in God, and both are baptized, and they talk about trying to find a church. They’ve also expressed interest in converting to Catholicism. (My daughter graduated from a Catholic university.) But they don’t, because they don’t TRUST any church after what happened to us.

So yes, I’ve met up with some pretty nasty evangelical Protestants.

But I will still defend all the good ones that I have known over the years.

 

[ltwin]

Are unrepentant sinners allowed to go to your church?

Anyone can go to our church. We welcome everyone.

However, if someone confesses Jesus as their Lord and Savior and lives in open and blatant sin, the fact that they are living in sin is made known to them, yet they consistently refuse to repent and change their behavior, then my church will not condone their behavior. They will make it plain to that person that they are living in sin and are endangering their souls. They wont be permitted to have a leadership role or any type of position of responsibility.

We do not prevent people from coming to church. We have had a lot of shady characters attend our church. We never told them not to come. We loved them, prayed for them, and taught them the word of God. But we never said “well you’ve been baptized and you take communion regularly so you’re a Christian at least.”

I know that I have been born again because of the direct witness of the Holy Spirit. But the only way other people know that I’m a follower of Christ is by my actions. They don’t know my heart. And we know that what is in the heart will be lived out. So if my actions are contrary to those of Christ, then the church cannot give me a false sense of security.

 

[Miriam1947]

Anyone can go to our church. We welcome everyone.

However, if someone confesses Jesus as their Lord and Savior and lives in open and blatant sin, the fact that they are living in sin is made known to them, yet they consistently refuse to repent and change their behavior, then my church will not condone their behavior. They will make it plain to that person that they are living in sin and are endangering their souls. They wont be permitted to have a leadership role or any type of position of responsibility.

We do not prevent people from coming to church. We have had a lot of shady characters attend our church. We never told them not to come. We loved them, prayed for them, and taught them the word of God. But we never said “well you’ve been baptized and you take communion regularly so you’re a Christian at least.”

I know that I have been born again because of the direct witness of the Holy Spirit. But the only way other people know that I’m a follower of Christ is by my actions. They don’t know my heart. And we know that what is in the heart will be lived out. So if my actions are contrary to those of Christ, then the church cannot give me a false sense of security.

I just read what Cat had to say. I had no idea what your church does and I am glad to hear that people, however sinful, are still welcome.

I see so many diverse people in my church. Some have mental problems, some are huge sinners, but, all are welcome. I’m glad it is the same for your church.

How can we possibly help people find Christ if we are a hotel for saints and not a hospital for sinners?

 

[ltwin]

I just read what Cat had to say. I had no idea what your church does and I am glad to hear that people, however sinful, are still welcome.

I see so many diverse people in my church. Some have mental problems, some are huge sinners, but, all are welcome. I’m glad it is the same for your church.

How can we possibly help people find Christ if we are a hotel for saints and not a hospital for sinners?

You’re right. We have people in our church who have problems and who don’t live the most holy of lives. There is a fine line between showing love and mercy on one hand and choosing to ignore or sweep sin under the rug. I think many evangelicals perceive from what they know of the Catholic church that within it is a permissiveness to sin as long as one does all the right things, like go to confession where they are absolved.

 

[Kismetji]

What is it? And what is the standard for determining whether one has it?

[Primarily a question for protestant evangelicals - I hear this term “personal relationship with JC” quite a bit, but looking for an operational definition.]

I have searched for it as well. I basically find it inadequate. Jesus lacks personality, and that is doing no disservice to Jesus. There is simply nothing concrete one may find in the portraiture of Jesus. There are too many diverging interpretations, for one thing, and even if there weren’t we could not get a comprehensive picture of what Jesus was “like.” His aphorisms though doubtless wise and significant, offer no intimate revelation of the man himself we can vouch for and say “aha!” this is the type of person he was.

That is what I think, at least. Prove me wrong.

 

[ltwin]

I have searched for it as well. I basically find it inadequate. Jesus lacks personality, and that is doing no disservice to Jesus. There is simply nothing concrete one may find in the portraiture of Jesus. There are too many diverging interpretations, for one thing, and even if there weren’t we could not get a comprehensive picture of what Jesus was “like.” His aphorisms though doubtless wise and significant, offer no intimate revelation of the man himself we can vouch for and say “aha!” this is the type of person he was.

That is what I think, at least. Prove me wrong.

For the Christian, Jesus is not limited to what we know about him from history or from the interpretations of 2 thousand years of thought about him. He possesses a love so strong for you and me and everyone who has ever lived that he would willingly lay down his life, shedding his blood for sinners. His love breaks through time itself and is as strong and real today as it was when he walked this earth. He is in Heaven now interceding for us. He sent the Holy Spirit to be an advocate for us, who also intercedes on our behalf. There is no one more real to me than Jesus. When I have no in this world, I know he is there. I talk to him, I bring him my burdens and my problems, and I am learning to listen to him and hear his voice.

My father is a minister and after years of faith in Christ he has this calm assurance. I remember there was a time when our local church was going through such a horrible time. We actually had to leave it for awhile. The situation was complicated because my father was on the church’s board and most of our family went to the church. There were some really bad things happening, and while my mother was content to just deal with it and keep quiet, my father felt strongly that he had to take a stand. At the time, we had to make some incredibly hard decisions. My dad was ultimately kicked off of the board and we had to leave the church that I grew up with and that my mom had helped dig the foundation out with a spoon as a child. I would listen as my dad and mom would discuss things. My dad spoke about how the Lord told him this or the “I heard the Lord say, ‘Mike …’” Now keep in mind that my dad was not suggesting that he was hearing audible voices from God, but he heard God speaking to him, leading him, and guiding him through some very tough waters.

I always wondered how my dad seemed to be so familiar with Jesus. Then I realized that its because after spending so many years with a person, you do become familiar with them. He is closer to us than the closest friend or brother, and as we spend more time with him we grow closer to him.