Personhood of the fetus

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Hello all,

I’ve been trying to catch up on my pro-life arguments but there is one wall I can’t break through. I have encountered pro-choicers who say that the fetus is a human but not a person; thus abortion is justified.

So what are some philosophical arguments for the personhood of the fetus? Peter Kreeft makes some good points in his Apple Argument against abortion and another article he wrote strictly about fetal personhood. However, Kreeft stops his argument just short of being completely convince-able. One thing I’ve heard in my research is that all humans are persons but not all persons are humans, however this is hard to prove philosophically.

Back to my original question: how can fetal personhood be proven?
 
Personhood should be irrelevant here; simply being human should be enough to entitle one to human rights, including and especially life. And just think of how many times in history people have justified the destruction of some certain humans by saying they weren’t people. (genocide, slavery…)
 
Personhood should be irrelevant here; simply being human should be enough to entitle one to human rights, including and especially life. And just think of how many times in history people have justified the destruction of some certain humans by saying they weren’t people. (genocide, slavery…)
Trust me, I tried. It wasn’t enough.
 
I think personhood is extremely important.

It’s in virtue of this unique ‘personhood’ that people typically think it’s morally permissible (albeit, heart-breaking) to put an animal down while thinking it’s morally forbidden to put human persons down. (Cf. Euthenasia. Note, I’m not including capital punishment here.)

So, if it is established that human fetuses aren’t persons, anti-abortionists would have a lot of foot-work to do, explaining why we should think it’s morally forbidden to ‘put fetuses down’.

(Personally, I suspect the (oft-emotional) inclination to regard fetuses as persons is the kin-selection imbued in us by natural-selection. It seems some of these mechanisms are poor at tracking-truth, but great for fitness)
 
Back to my original question: how can fetal personhood be proven?

This queston may send you to a search for a definition of personhood. Then you can discuss how these definitions are constructed. Who or what is included and who or what is excluded and why?
You might consider going back to the three fifths clause to discuss the ways in which the concept of person is socially and politically constructed. Who profiits from this? Who suffers loss? Which group does your friend think likely to be the next to be declared non-persons?

In Nazi Germany did the powerful consider Jews persons? Denying personhood status to a group of humans makes it easier to see them as ‘other’ and to justify treating them poorly.
It might be helpful to question the way that parameters are set for the abortion debate. Personhood became a useful argument for some when the biological arguments failed in regard to humanity. The pro-abortion arguments I have encountered tend to draw from utilitarinism. Discussions of fetal personhood have become a way of withdrawing recognition of the rights from a particular group.
 
If a fetus is not a person, when does it become a person?

If a fetus is a living human a person, and as you can see from this article, a fetus has the the 7 signs of life, so therefore a fetus is a person.
Rather, it does make sense to say that a fully human entity is a person who has the natural inherent capacity to give rise to human functions. And since an unborn entity typically has this natural inherent capacity, (he or) she is a person.
As John Jefferson Davis writes, ‘Our ability to have conscious experiences and recollections arises out of our personhood; the basic metaphysical reality of personhood precedes the unfolding of the conscious abilities inherent in it.’ Therefore, an ordinary unborn human entity is a person, and hence, fully human.
In other words, because the unborn human is a person with a certain natural inherent capacity (i.e., her essence), she will function as a person in the near future, just as the reversibly comatose and the temporarily unconscious will likewise do because of their natural inherent capacity. The unborn are not potential persons but persons with much potential.
For example, no one doubts that day-old human children have fewer actual capacities than day-old calves. Human infants, in terms of environmental awareness, mobility, etc., are rather unimpressive in comparison to the calves, especially if one calculates their ages from conception. But this comparison does not persuade us to believe that the calves have greater intrinsic worth and an inherent right to life. For if human infants were sold to butchers (let us suppose for the high market value of their body parts) in the same way that farmers sell calves to humane butchers, we would find such a practice deeply disturbing.
Yet if intrinsic worth is really contingent upon current capacities rather than natural inherent capacity, we should have no problem with the selling of human infants to butchers. But Ray points out why we do find such a practice morally repugnant:
The wrongness would consist not merely in ignoring the interest that society might have in the children, but in violating the children’s own rights. Yet if those rights are grounded in current capacities alone, the calves should enjoy at least the same moral status as the children, and probably higher status." What follows is that "the difference in status is plausibly explained… only with reference to the children’s humanity, their natural kind.’
christiananswers.net/q-sum/q-life022.html
 
I think personhood is extremely important.

It’s in virtue of this unique ‘personhood’ that people typically think it’s morally permissible (albeit, heart-breaking) to put an animal down while thinking it’s morally forbidden to put human persons down. (Cf. Euthenasia. Note, I’m not including capital punishment here.)

So, if it is established that human fetuses aren’t persons, anti-abortionists would have a lot of foot-work to do, explaining why we should think it’s morally forbidden to ‘put fetuses down’.

(Personally, I suspect the (oft-emotional) inclination to regard fetuses as persons is the kin-selection imbued in us by natural-selection. It seems some of these mechanisms are poor at tracking-truth, but great for fitness)
The fallacy of rejecting a belief as false because of an alleged cause for that belief…

With equal facility and greater cogency those who deny a fetus is a person have a potential excuse for doing so.
 
The fallacy of rejecting a belief as false because of an alleged cause for that belief…

With equal facility and greater cogency those who deny a fetus is a person have a potential excuse for doing so.
Where did I infer that the belief was false because of its alleged origin?
 
Where did I infer that the belief was false because of its alleged origin?
(
Personally, I suspect the (oft-emotional) inclination to regard fetuses as persons is the kin-selection** imbued in us by natural-selection**. It seems some of these mechanisms are poor at tracking-truth, but great for fitness)
 
tonyrey: I said I think our oft-emotional inclination to regard human fetuses as persons is something imbued in us by natural-selection. But, I don’t think this inclination is false because it’s imbued in us by natural-selection. I believe it’s false on independent grounds, in virtue of which I regard this naturally selected mechanism as good for fitness but poor for truth-tracking.

As to definitions of persons…I find it more useful to talk about human persons rather than persons lest any questions get begged. What we’re looking for is a set of necessary and sufficient conditions, an object’s fullfilling of which renders it a person. Since so few philosophers are willing to venture into that territory I certainly won’t.

But, I do think we can identify a necessary condition: the possession of a brain. Medically speaking, we define the death of a human being in terms of brain death (used to be cessation of heart-beats). This tells us that human ‘life’ requires a brain. Those of you who believe in souls could accept this condition: you’d just have to stipulate that this is a condition of our sojourn on earth, and it’s therefore dropped afterwards.
 
tonyrey: I said I think our oft-emotional inclination to regard human fetuses as persons is something imbued in us by natural-selection. But, I don’t think this inclination is false because it’s imbued in us by natural-selection.
I believe it’s false on independent grounds, in virtue of which I regard this naturally selected mechanism as good for fitness but poor for truth-tracking.
Your opinion of the origin (and falsity) of a belief is irrelevant and fails to further the discussion.
As to definitions of persons…I find it more useful to talk about human persons rather than persons lest any questions get begged. What we’re looking for is a set of necessary and sufficient conditions, an object’s fullfilling of which renders it a person. Since so few philosophers are willing to venture into that territory I certainly won’t.
It is begging the question to imply that human persons are the** only** persons and distorts your perspective to suit your bias towards materialism.
But, I do think we can identify a necessary condition: the possession of a brain. Medically speaking, we define the death of a human being in terms of brain death (used to be cessation of heart-beats). This tells us that human ‘life’ requires a brain.
Here we arrive at the inevitable conclusion of a materialist:

Unless one possesses a brain one is not a human (person)! As if personhood is determined by having a brain.
Those of you who believe in souls could accept this condition: you’d just have to stipulate that this is a condition of our sojourn on earth, and it’s therefore dropped afterwards.
An arbitrary condition which fits your conclusion…
 
Your opinion of the origin (and falsity) of a belief is irrelevant and fails to further the discussion.
I think this is a round-about way of conceding that I didn’t commit a genetic fallacy 😉
It is begging the question to imply that human persons are the** only** persons and distorts your perspective to suit your bias towards materialism.
If it’s question begging to imply that the only human persons are persons and this is a bad thing, then it’s also question begging to imply that human persons aren’t the only persons, and this is a bad thing. I think you may have just shot yourself in the foot tony.

In any case, I never implied that human persons are the only persons. I merely said I find it more useful to talk about human persons rather than persons in general. Afterall, we’re interested in whether human fetuses are persons right? Even if you disagree here, I certainly haven’t begged the question. I find it odd how quick you are to accuse me of reasoning fallaciously, especially given what I’ve said.
Unless one possesses a brain one is not a human (person)! As if personhood is determined by having a brain.
Well, you haven’t given any reason at all to disagree. Are you suggesting we should disregard the medical definition of death? Are doctors begging the question as well?
 
Your opinion of the origin (and falsity) of a belief is irrelevant and fails to further the discussion.
Why make the remark when it fails to further the discussion?
It is begging the question to imply that human persons are the only persons and distorts your perspective to suit your bias towards materialism.
If it’s question begging to imply that the only human persons are persons and this is a bad thing, then it’s also question begging to imply that human persons aren’t the only persons, and this is a bad thing. I think you may have just shot yourself in the foot tony.

Not at all. I’m not implying anything but simply allowing for the possibility that there are other persons whereas you are ruling it out altogether by equating persons with humans.
In any case, I never implied that human persons are the only persons. I merely said I find it more useful to talk about human persons rather than persons in general.
Why is it useful?
After all, we’re interested in whether human fetuses are persons right? Even if you disagree here, I certainly haven’t begged the question. I find it odd how quick you are to accuse me of reasoning fallaciously, especially given what I’ve said.
You proceed to your preconceived conclusion that persons cannot exist without a brain when it is not a logical conclusion.
Unless one possesses a brain one is not a human (person)! As if personhood is determined by having a brain.
Well, you haven’t given any reason at all to disagree. Are you suggesting we should disregard the medical definition of death? Are doctors begging the question as well?

Medicine is not concerned with persons but with bodies. There are plenty of doctors who believe a person must have a soul in order to be a person.

The reason why a fetus is a person is that he or she comes from the union of two persons and will develop into a mature person unless he or she dies naturally or is killed by a person. It is arbitrary to p(name removed by moderator)oint any stage of development at which the fetus becomes a person subsequent to the moment of conception.
 
When it comes to abortion and the law, personhood is a legal construct.

It was only in 1929 that women were recognized as persons under the law in Canada. We can only hope that we won’t have to wait that long for a fetus to be conferred that same status.
 
Hello all,

So what are some philosophical arguments for the personhood of the fetus? Peter Kreeft makes some good points in his Apple Argument against abortion and another article he wrote strictly about fetal personhood. However, Kreeft stops his argument just short of being completely convince-able. One thing I’ve heard in my research is that all humans are persons but not all persons are humans, however this is hard to prove philosophically.

Back to my original question: how can fetal personhood be proven?
Dear Coolduude,

The personhood of a fetus or embryo can be argued from philosophy, but in order to do so, it is best to begin by defining the terms correctly.

So, the first question is, “What is a person?” and there is a related question, “How can I tell if what I have before me is a person?” It seems to be a habit of contemporary philosophy to define personhood based on what people do, and not based on who they are; for example, by defining “person” as “someone who is capable of relating to others” or “someone who is able to make ethical decisions.” The problem is that, if the capacity in question is somehow impeded (for example, if the subject goes into a coma, or else suffers from mental retardation, or even when he goes to sleep at night), then it seems as if personhood is also impeded.

Therefore, it is better to go the rout of a definition according to being, not accoding to doing. I don’t think we get any better than the classical definition given by the 6th-century Christian philosopher Boethius: a person is an “individual substance with a rational nature.” (St. Thomas Aquinas refines it further, but Boethius’ definition will suffice for our purposes. You can find it in Boethius’ work On the Person and Two Natures.)

Some parsing of philosophical terms is in order here. “Substance” is the classical philosophical term for those beings that exist in themselves and not in another being. (For example, a banana is a substance, but the yellowness of that banana does not have an independent existence; it is an “accident.” The fruit exists by itself; the color only exists in the fruit. In this sense, a human being is also a substance: he has an independent exisitence, although, of course, he has a much greater dignity than a banana.) In some philosophical contexts, “substance” can refer, not to concrete realities, but to abstract ones, and so Boethius insists that the term “person” always refers to an individual: a concrete reality, not an abstraction.

The key idea, however, is that a person is a reality with a rational nature. Behind this idea is a conception of how all concrete realities–all substances–are structured: substances undergo all sorts of changes without ceasing to be what they are. For example, I started out as an embryo, and then grew into a fetus, then became a baby, then a toddler, and so on, until I reached adulthood. In that process, I underwent a lot of external changes, but I remained the same individual. The aspect that remains the same philosophers call “essence” or “nature:” it is the principle that makes something what it is. It is very important to distinguish between nature (what something is) and its effects (what that thingdoes), because the effects come and go, but the nature remains.

A person, then, has a nature, and what is more, a rational nature: in other words, it has, by its very nature, a fundamental capacity for intellectual activity. Boethius is not here reducing human nature to its rationality, but he is using that rationality as an indicator of something deeper: that a human being is a spiritual being, not simply material.

What I said about the structure of all substances–that each one is composed of a stable principle (essence or nature) and a changable principle (usually called “accident” or sometimes “operation” by philosophers)–can help us answer the second question: “How can I know if the thing I have before me is a person?”

No one disputes, I think, that a full grown human being is a person. It would follow that he must have a rational (that is spiritual) nature, and this seems to be born out by experience. The question then becomes, “When did he start to have a rational nature?”

Accidental changes, as we saw, are not enough to change the nature. It is possible to make “accidental changes” in material beings that are so extreme that the substance in question cannot survive. Philosophers call this “substantial change;” in this case, it is not so much that that the nature changes, so much that it goes out of existence (at least as regards the material entity in question). This happens, for example, at the death of a living being (even for human beings): the body left behind after death is can no longer be identified with the being to whom it once belonged.

It is important to note that “substantial” changes are inherently instantaneous and irreversible: it may be difficult to determine the moment of death, for example, but that does not take away from the fact that the death actually happens in a given, precise instant: on the day that I make my encounter with the Lord, I won’t be “partly alive” and “partly dead.” No: when the moment arrives, I will undoubtedly be weak, and my vital signs will be failing, but I will pass at one given moment from being “alive” (albeit weak) to being “dead,” without any intermediate stages.

Some “accidental” changes are sudden, too. (Supercooled water, for example, freezes quite dramatically if you add ice to it.) However, all gradual changes must be accidental (because, as we saw, all substantial changes are sudden). That includes, for example, the development of animal or human being from childhood.

With these concepts in mind, let’s try a thought experiment. Do I (an adult human being) have a rational nature now? Yes. (I hope!) Did I have one when I was a child? Yes, because all developmental the changes I have undergone since then have been gradual and continuous. Did I have a rational nature when I was a baby? Yes, because my development from infancy to childhood was perfectly continuous. What about the day before I was born? Yes, for the same reason: my passage through the birth canal did nothing to affect my continuous development. What about three months before I was born, or six months? The same. What about when I was a zygote (the product of the fusion of sperm and oocyte)? The same. (Embryonic development is manifestly gradual and continuous from the moment of fertilization: you can verify that in any serious textbook on embryology.)

The conclusion is that, from the time I was a zygote until now, I have had a rational nature, and I will continue to have one until my death. (I will continue to have one even after that, but the arguments for that go beyond this topic.) Since persons are precisely individuals with rational natures, it follows that I have been a person continuously, ever since I was a zygote.

What about before I was zygote? No. The fusion of egg and sperm produces a true substantial change, and so at that moment my life–and hence, as we saw, my personhood–began.

Can we apply this reasoning across the board to all human embryos? Yes, absolutely, because human nature–understood this time as an abstract, universal, principle–pertains to all members of the human species. (You can’t be human without having a human nature, because nature makes you what you are.) To put it another way, we know that a human zygote or embryo will necessarily develop into an adult human being, unless something impedes it. Just because something could impede its development does not take away from the fact that it already possesses a human (and thus, rational) nature and, therefore, personhood.

The conclusion is that all individuals of the human species, regardless of the stage of development, and also regardless of factors that impede that development (such as mental retardation, etc.), are persons, with all the rights of persons, from their conception (fertilization) to their death. (They remain persons after their death, as I said, but they are at that point, of course, no longer subject to death.)

I don’t know if I expressed my reasoning clearly, or if I confused matters more. This is the argument that most convinced me of the personhood of human embryos, and I hope you found it helpful.

Incidentally, all human beings are persons (as this argument proves), but there are persons that are not human: angels and especially the Persons of the Trinity. In fact, Boethius made his definition in order to help theological reflection on the Trinity and on Christology. However, nothing infra-human is a person: for example (non-human) animals are not persons.

God bless.

Bro. Louis.
 
Why make the remark when it fails to further the discussion?
It furthers the discussion. I consider most of these attempts to ‘personalize’ human fetuses to be a form of kin-selection.
Not at all. I’m not implying anything but simply allowing for the possibility that there are other persons whereas you are ruling it out altogether by equating persons with humans.
Who says it’s impossible that there be non-human persons? I certainly don’t. I don’t know a single materialist who does. I’m starting to wonder whether you read my posts tony. You’ve accused me of the genetic fallacy and begging the question on the basis of things I never said. Now you’re telling me I equate persons with humans. :confused:
Why is it useful?
Because we want to know whether human fetuses are human persons, not persons in some undefined sense. We want to know whether they have the same rights and dignities human persons have.
You proceed to your preconceived conclusion that persons cannot exist without a brain when it is not a logical conclusion.
I never said persons can’t exist without brains. 🤷
Medicine is not concerned with persons but with bodies. There are plenty of doctors who believe a person must have a soul in order to be a person.
Be that as it may, this is irrelevant to whether a thing must have a brain in order to be a human person. As I said earlier, belief in souls isn’t at odds with this condition.
The reason why a fetus is a person is that he or she comes from the union of two persons and will develop into a mature person unless he or she dies naturally or is killed by a person. It is arbitrary to p(name removed by moderator)oint any stage of development at which the fetus becomes a person subsequent to the moment of conception.
You can’t just ‘say’ that p(name removed by moderator)ointing any stage of development subsequent to conception is arbitrary, otherwise I’ll just ‘say’ your p(name removed by moderator)ointing conception is arbitrary. 😛

Why think something is a person if it came from the union of two persons and will develop into a mature person…etc. Why not just say the fetus is a ‘potential’ person? I suspect it’s because your theology won’t let you.
 
I think personhood is extremely important.

It’s in virtue of this unique ‘personhood’ that people typically think it’s morally permissible (albeit, heart-breaking) to put an animal down while thinking it’s morally forbidden to put human persons down. (Cf. Euthenasia. Note, I’m not including capital punishment here.)

So, if it is established that human fetuses aren’t persons, anti-abortionists would have a lot of foot-work to do, explaining why we should think it’s morally forbidden to ‘put fetuses down’.

(Personally, I suspect the (oft-emotional) inclination to regard fetuses as persons is the kin-selection imbued in us by natural-selection. It seems some of these mechanisms are poor at tracking-truth, but great for fitness)
Though there are some arguments that do suggests ways to handle this. Alexander Pruss has a couple articles against abortion that work even if the fetus is not a person.

Just for summary, he puts it this way:
  1. I was once a fetus
  2. If I was once a fetus, it was wrong to kill that fetus
  3. If it was wrong to kill me as a fetus, it would be wrong to kill anyone as a fetus.
(longer version and pop. version)

As I read him, he points out that one reason it is wrong to kill me is that you deprive me of something, ie the rest of my life. But this would apply at least as much to me when I was a fetus.

What if I was not a person as a fetus? When then it would still be wrong to kill me, because you are depriving me of something even more, personhood.

Here: Killing me at time t0 would deprive me of the life that I would have otherwise led after t0. If t0 were earlier, the harm is, if anything, greater since I would have been robbed of more. The harm in the killing is the loss of the future life. Certainly, one need not be aware of having been harmed to have in fact been harmed.

And: Note that this paper does not attempt to establish conclusively that the fetus is a person, except in its remark that if personhood is an essential property then the fetus that I was was a person. All that the main arguments need is that the fetus was I, not that the fetus was a person. Observe that there is a sense in which abortion is often an even greater evil if the fetus were not a person (though in fact, I think being a person is an essential property and hence a fetus is a person). For, if one kills a person, one has not robbed her of all of the worldly personal life that she would otherwise have had. But** if one kills the fetus, if a fetus is not a person and unless we are talking of a special case where the fetus could not have lived until attaining personhood** (a case where I take it abortion would still be wrong by my right-to-life-is-an-essential-property argument, though perhaps to a lesser extent), one has robbed the fetus of all of her worldly personal life, and this is a greater theft, with numerically the same victim.

For other interested: Francis Beckwith on that fetuses are not “potential persons” but “persons with potential.”
thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/potential-persons-in-the-after-birth-abortion-article.html
 
…Back to my original question: how can fetal personhood be proven?
Well, how can you ‘prove’ anybody’s personhood? Can you prove that you are a person? That President Obama is a person? That your ‘pro-choice’ friends are?

I would turn the question back on the questioner. How do they define personhood so as to exclude fetuses? What is their definition of the term? And why is it okay to kill a ‘non-person’ human being? Would it be okay to kill anybody else excluded by their definition?

One of the more common definitions I’ve heard from ‘pro-choice’ folks is: well, a fetus can’t survive on its own, so it isn’t a person. Okay. If that’s the definition of personhood, then two-year old children, alzheimers sufferers, car accident victims on a respirator, and the mentally ill all aren’t people either, since they rely on others to live. So can we kill them too when it seems convenient to do so?

Heck, could you or I really survive ‘on our own’ for very long? Are we people?

The natural assumption is (or should be) that any human being – that is, any organism with human DNA – is a human person, with the same human rights as any other person. The onus is on the challenger to explain why that isn’t so, to explain the difference between ‘human organism’ and ‘human person,’ and then to apply their reasoning consistently.

Sadly, most seem to choose not to think about it…because it’s very hard to come up with an ethical justification for abortion that doesn’t also put other human lives at risk, if the same justification were applied across the board.
 
Trust me, I tried. It wasn’t enough.
When people do not want to hear the truth they will not listen.

What is in a word? The word "person"only has meaning beyond a legal definition, if you believe in the sanctity of human life.

There are some people who who wish to bestow the title “person” to animals.

More often than not the best you can do is state, with love, the truth. “Human life is sacred from the moment of conception until natural death. This is the truth. This is what I believe. I will not play word games in the attempt to dehumanise the unborn child.”

Before we can advance the the truth about the humanity of the the unborn child, we must understand that many people who accept abortion, do not even accept the concept that human life is sacred.
 
This whole business of conferring the title “person” to human beings really bothers me.

Are we “persons” only and if the government says so in a court of law?

What a miserable road that type of thinking will take us.
 
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