Persons of trinity

[javid]

Relation is intrinsic not action.

Relation is common.

Person signifies relation as subsisting in the divine nature. Relation as referred to the essence%between% does not really differ. Relation referred to an opposite relation has a real distinction.

Dear Vico

I think our problem is distinction. Please explain how distinction happens!

Best Regards

 

[Vico]

Dear Vico

I think our problem is distinction. Please explain how distinction happens!

Best Regards

St. Thomas Aquinas answers that relation referred to an opposite relation has a real distinction, even though relation referred to the essence does not really differ.
The truth of this question is quite clear if we consider the divine simplicity. For it was shown above (Question 3, Article 3) that the divine simplicity requires that in God essence is the same as “suppositum,” which in intellectual substances is nothing else than person. But a difficulty seems to arise from the fact that while the divine persons are multiplied, the essence nevertheless retains its unity. And because, as Boethius says (De Trin. i), “relation multiplies the Trinity of persons,” some have thought that in God essence and person differ, forasmuch as they held the relations to be “adjacent”; considering only in the relations the idea of “reference to another,” and not the relations as realities. But as it was shown above (Question 28, Article 2) in creatures relations are accidental, whereas in God they are the divine essence itself. Thence it follows that in God essence is not really distinct from person; and yet that the persons are really distinguished from each other. For person, as above stated (29, 4), signifies relation as subsisting in the divine nature. But relation as referred to the essence does not differ therefrom really, but only in our way of thinking; while as referred to an opposite relation, it has a real distinction by virtue of that opposition. Thus there are one essence and three persons.
Reference: newadvent.org/summa/1039.htm

 

[javid]

St. Thomas Aquinas answers that relation referred to an opposite relation has a real distinction, even though relation referred to the essence does not really differ.
The truth of this question is quite clear if we consider the divine simplicity. For it was shown above (Question 3, Article 3) that the divine simplicity requires that in God essence is the same as “suppositum,” which in intellectual substances is nothing else than person. But a difficulty seems to arise from the fact that while the divine persons are multiplied, the essence nevertheless retains its unity. And because, as Boethius says (De Trin. i), “relation multiplies the Trinity of persons,” some have thought that in God essence and person differ, forasmuch as they held the relations to be “adjacent”; considering only in the relations the idea of “reference to another,” and not the relations as realities. But as it was shown above (Question 28, Article 2) in creatures relations are accidental, whereas in God they are the divine essence itself. Thence it follows that in God essence is not really distinct from person; and yet that the persons are really distinguished from each other. For person, as above stated (29, 4), signifies relation as subsisting in the divine nature. But relation as referred to the essence does not differ therefrom really, but only in our way of thinking; while as referred to an opposite relation, it has a real distinction by virtue of that opposition. Thus there are one essence and three persons.
Reference: newadvent.org/summa/1039.htm

Dear Vico

Thank you.

But I want know how does relation multiply the Trinity of persons? It can be a key to solve my problem.

Best Regards

 

[Vico]

Dear Vico

Thank you.

But I want know how does relation multiply the Trinity of persons? It can be a key to solve my problem.

Best Regards

In Aristotle’s Categories, being is divided into substance and the nine categories including the category of "relation”.

We can ask if God the Father is Father because he begets the Son or whether he begets the Son because He is Father. Aquinas uses the second: “God the Father begets the Son because He is Father.” The *relational *property of being Father is the primary source of what makes the Father distinct. There are only two candidates that might provide the distinction, that of essence and relation. Essence doesn’t distinguish, so it must be relation.

The relations determine distinct persons yet do not determine distinct essences; the relations are fundamental to the distinction.

 

[javid]

In Aristotle’s Categories, being is divided into substance and the nine categories including the category of "relation”.

We can ask if God the Father is Father because he begets the Son or whether he begets the Son because He is Father. Aquinas uses the second: “God the Father begets the Son because He is Father.” The *relational *property of being Father is the primary source of what makes the Father distinct. There are only two candidates that might provide the distinction, that of essence and relation. Essence doesn’t distinguish, so it must be relation.

The relations determine distinct persons yet do not determine distinct essences; the relations are fundamental to the distinction.

Dear Vico

As you said, being the father(or begetter), being the son(or begotten) and being Holy spirit(being proceeded) are the distinction.

So we have such persons:

First Person**=** Divine Essence + being the father(or begetter)

Second person**=** Divine Essence + being the son(or begotten)

Third Person**=** Divine Essence + being the Holy spirit(being proceeded)

We can’t say this distinctions are Essnce, because if they were Essence, each person must have it!(excuse me if it is grammatically wrong, my language is not English) So second person must be the begetter and first person must be the begotten and so there were no distinction and no Trinity. So My problem exists yet! Each person has two parts!

 

[Vico]

Dear Vico

As you said, being the father(or begetter), being the son(or begotten) and being Holy spirit(being proceeded) are the distinction.

So we have such persons:

First Person**=** Divine Essence + being the father(or begetter)

Second person**=** Divine Essence + being the son(or begotten)

Third Person**=** Divine Essence + being the Holy spirit(being proceeded)

We can’t say this distinctions are Essence, because if they were Essence, each person must have it!(excuse me if it is grammatically wrong, my language is not English) So second person must be the begetter and first person must be the begotten and so there were no distinction and no Trinity. So My problem exists yet! Each person has two parts!

Per metaphysics, relation does not import composition into the essence.

The nature and essence are one in God and the relation is of the essence. It is relation of opposition not of act that makes it logical. You have written your statement in action form, so I do not know if you intend them as titles only or are saying relations based upon act.

 

[Vico]

…Each person has two parts!

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not independent, so there are no parts.

 

[javid]

Per metaphysics, relation does not import composition into the essence.

The nature and essence are one in God and the relation is of the essence. It is relation of opposition not of act that makes it logical. You have written your statement in action form, so I do not know if you intend them as titles only or are saying relations based upon act.

Dear Vico

That formulation was about the Persons, not about the Essence. And about your claim “the relation is of the essence” we talked before.

I mean if “being the father” is of essence, so God the Son and Holy spirit must be the father and if it is not of essence, So God the father can’t be simple, because he has two units: Essence and Paternity(being father).

Best Regards

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Dear Vico

That formulation was about the Persons, not about the Essence. And about your claim “the relation is of the essence” we talked before.

I mean if “being the father” is of essence, so God the Son and Holy spirit must be the father and if it is not of essence, So God the father can’t be simple, because he has two units: Essence and Paternity(being father).

Best Regards

Hello javid, no one can define and no one has defined the blessed Trinity, the blessed Trinity is eternal being One God, that Essence that is spoken of here, is mystery because God’s Essence is not revealed in space and time

What God does reveal in space and time is God’s PRESENCE.

Trinity gives name to the procession of God’s revelation in PRESENCE.

God’s presence (not Essence) is revealed in God the Father (voice), God the Son (Word of God) and God the Holy Spirit (breath of God). Athought the Essence divine is hidden in God’s presence, Because for eternity to touch space and time, space and time will cease to exist. Thus no one has ever seen the Father except the Son because the Son comes from the Father, here we speak of procession revelation of God’s presence.

The Trinity of persons are distinct from one another in procession, revelation, presence, One God in being Essence divinity undivided, not separated and not confused.

See if this helps, I posted it on another thread; sorry about the length

Many of the Early Church Fathers describe Jesus teaching the “Father is greater than the Son” by the revealed procession in the divine economy of the Trinity.

The Father proceeds from no one. The Father sends and eternally begets the Son.

The Father gives everything the Father has to the Son except the begetting, because the Son does not beget another.

The Son does everything the Father is doing, thus the Son sends the Holy Spirit or the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son.

The Father Loves the Son and the Son Loves the Father

The Father Wills, it pleases the Son to do the Will of His Father.

The Father is greater than the Son in the eternal sending and begetting of the Son not made.

From this divine economy of the Trinity reveals the Father is greater than the Son in procession.

It is important to grasp here, that this divine economic procession is an eternal procession outside of space and time.

The eternal begetting and sending from the Father, if I can describe it in human terms to reflect this eternal procession, is the same as God who breathes and speaks His life in Trinity.

The Eternal procession or Eternal breathing (metaphor) of God sends (breathes) life (Holy Spirit the Lord the give of Life) and begets His only begotten Son, When God speaks His Word God the Father who does not proceed from no one, begets His only begotten Son. This God breathes and God Speaks reveals God lives. Here we still remain in the realm of eternity in God’s Essence eternally Existing breathing sending life, and speaking begets a Son to fulfill the Will of the Father.

This eternal procession of God who breathes and speaks His Word or eternally begets the Son. Is revealed in space and time in the presence of the Holy Trinity of persons, when the Voice = Father is heard, the Word = the only Begotten Son of the Father is sent out and the Holy Spirit perfects and makes divine revelation known or He is the Lord and giver of Life. When the presence of God is made known in the Trinity of persons, the Essence of God is veiled in each person when each person is God in revelation, because the Essence of God does not come down to us.

In short the Father is greater than the Son because God breathes and speaks and lives.

When the Father is God, who speaks His Word begets the Son who in the beginning was with God and the Word is God and all life and creation came through Him and the Word became flesh and made His dwelling among the human race = Emmanuel.

When God the Father breathes life who is life, sends the Spirit who is the Lord the giver of Life.

God and the Holy Spirit is God in presence in space and time who gives life in Him, with Him, through Him and from Him to what came to be from the Word who is God revealed in the fullness of time Jesus the Logos, Word of God incarnate.

Trinity is One God and no other eternally Pure Essence in being Existing. This Eternal Essence of God is undivided and never separated in the persons of the Trinity.

 

[Vico]

Dear Vico

That formulation was about the Persons, not about the Essence. And about your claim “the relation is of the essence” we talked before.

I mean if “being the father” is of essence, so God the Son and Holy spirit must be the father and if it is not of essence, So God the father can’t be simple, because he has two units: Essence and Paternity(being father).

Best Regards

Paternity is not a unit. Person is relation of opposition and does not create composition in the essence.

What I have described to you since July is the classic St. Thomas Aquinas logic.

 

[javid]

Paternity is not a unit. Person is relation of opposition and does not create composition in the essence.

What I have described to you since July is the classic St. Thomas Aquinas logic.

Dear Vico

When you describe some thing, you must accept its result.

First, Is paternity real or not? If no, distinction is not real.

Second, If yes: Is paternity Essential or not?

NOW:

If paternity is Essential: God the son and Holy spirit must have it, because Essence is shared between persons.

If paternity is not Essential: God the father has two parts: Essence and Paternity.

Please answer this, instead of writing unclear things about relations.

 

[Vico]

Dear Vico

When you describe some thing, you must accept its result.

First, Is paternity real or not? If no, distinction is not real.

Second, If yes: Is paternity Essential or not?

NOW:

If paternity is Essential: God the son and Holy spirit must have it, because Essence is shared between persons.

If paternity is not Essential: God the father has two parts: Essence and Paternity.

Please answer this, instead of writing unclear things about relations.

Paternity is essential.

One person cannot be thought of without the other. In God essence and existence are identical. In God what He is, and whereby He is, are the same; person is essence.

 

[thenobes]

Dear Vico

That formulation was about the Persons, not about the Essence. And about your claim “the relation is of the essence” we talked before.

I mean if “being the father” is of essence, so God the Son and Holy spirit must be the father and if it is not of essence, So God the father can’t be simple, because he has two units: Essence and Paternity(being father).

Best Regards

Hi javid,
Is it reasonable to assume that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all do have the same divine nature, but that their Will is that the Father begets, the Son is begotten, and the Holy Spirit proceeds? Thus God is the Trinity plus His infinite attributes, where the Trinity is separated to its relations by the Divine Will?

peace
steve

 

[NotAllHere]

John 1;1 paraphrased to bring out the grammar

At Creation, the Son of God pre-existed,
The Son of God was face to face with the Father like two people over a chessboard
The Son of God is of the same nature as the Father

 

[Telstar]

Just a thought that came to me as I was praying and pondering this thread, which I was about to give up on as a lost cause.

The true Essence of God is Divine Love, which has always existed. But, love must be expressed, because it cannot exist without someone, or something, to receive it. The Father eternally expresses His love by begetting the Son, who in turn eternally expresses His love to the Father. Their eternal expressions of love are made through the action of the Holy Spirit, who proceeds from both of them as the conduit of their continual expressions of love for each other. All three Persons of the Trinity have always existed as individuals, but their eternal Essence is Divine Love, Itself, which binds Them together in a continuous ‘loop’ (for lack of better term) of eternal love. They can never be separated because They each exist due to their continual expressions of Divine Love for each other, which is the true Essence of the Holy Trinity.

 

[javid]

Paternity is essential.

One person cannot be thought of without the other. In God essence and existence are identical. In God what He is, and whereby He is, are the same; person is essence.

Dear Vico

It is not a answer to my question. Paternity is Essential, so Each person must has it, if else that person can’t be God, because there are some thing in divine Essence that he does not have it.

And you said: “Person is essence”!! Absolutely it can’t be true, because Essence is One and Persons are three.(But we don’t want talk about it.)

Best Regards

 

[javid]

Hi javid,
Is it reasonable to assume that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all do have the same divine nature, but that their Will is that the Father begets, the Son is begotten, and the Holy Spirit proceeds? Thus God is the Trinity plus His infinite attributes, where the Trinity is separated to its relations by the Divine Will?

peace
steve

Dear Steve

Do you mean that if a person can loose a Essential thing if he want?! I don’t think so! It is impossible to imagine God without his Essential attributes, in addition, after loosing a Essential attribute,if it be possible, we can’t call him a real God.

 

[javid]

John 1;1 paraphrased to bring out the grammar

At Creation, the Son of God pre-existed,
The Son of God was face to face with the Father like two people over a chessboard
The Son of God is of the same nature as the Father

Dear sir

Two people are two human beings, BUT GOD IS ONE.

 

[javid]

Just a thought that came to me as I was praying and pondering this thread, which I was about to give up on as a lost cause.

The true Essence of God is Divine Love, which has always existed. But, love must be expressed, because it cannot exist without someone, or something, to receive it. The Father eternally expresses His love by begetting the Son, who in turn eternally expresses His love to the Father. Their eternal expressions of love are made through the action of the Holy Spirit, who proceeds from both of them as the conduit of their continual expressions of love for each other. All three Persons of the Trinity have always existed as individuals, but their eternal Essence is Divine Love, Itself, which binds Them together in a continuous ‘loop’ (for lack of better term) of eternal love. They can never be separated because They each exist due to their continual expressions of Divine Love for each other, which is the true Essence of the Holy Trinity.

Dear Telstar

We can’t imagine God without his personality. If God in a person, loves him self, who is the person who loved? God the Father loves himself, The person who loved is the Father, not the son.

 

[Vico]

Dear Vico

It is not a answer to my question. Paternity is Essential, so Each person must has it, if else that person can’t be God, because there are some thing in divine Essence that he does not have it.

And you said: “Person is essence”!! Absolutely it can’t be true, because Essence is One and Persons are three.(But we don’t want talk about it.)

Best Regards

Aquinas explained divine simplicity with three ideas.

1. God is distinguished from material objects: he cannot have any spatial or temporal parts that could be distinguished from one another (here rather than there or as now rather than then).
2. The standard distinction between an entity’s essential and intrinsic accidental properties cannot apply to God.
3. There is no possibility of components of any kind in the essence that is the divine nature.

You said you did not want to hear of relation in the post that I answered before. Person is relation of opposition and this relation is common to all and it is essential.