Persons of trinity

[YADA]

Dear Yada, It is modalism. Persons are not forms of God

Dear Javid -

I did not say persons are forms of God …

I believe in One God - the Father, Son and Holy Spirit … - the Holy Trinity … the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are three divine persons who are one divine being (God).

While my analogy is imperfect - as I said - and I acknowledge the Trinity is a* profound mystery* - it is my faith that matters -

It is possible to take the writings of scripture and the early church and other high theological discourses * versus my simple analogy and show where the simple falls short … but since - even the high theology will fail to describe fully such a mystery … I can live with my simple minded example … and spend the rest of my time trying to Glorify God for the many Blessings He has graced my life with

Tertullian [since you brought him up ]

"And at the same time the mystery of the oikonomia

is safeguarded, for the unity is distributed in a Trinity. Placed in order, the three are the Father, Son, and Spirit. They are three, however, not in condition, but in degree; not in being, but in form; not in power, but in kind; of one being, however, and one condition and one power, because he is one God of whom degrees and forms and kinds are taken into account in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" (ibid.). *

 

[jochoa]

So how each person is God?

Each person is a distinct expression of God’s essence, in which the Father is eternal, the Son is eternal generation, and the Holy Spirit is eternal procession. As an example, perhaps consider God’s essence as Love. Therefore:

1. The Father is the person who is always loving.
2. The Son is the person who is always loving, but expresses always loving by being begotten of the Father.
3. The Holy Spirit is the person who is always loving, but expresses always loving by procession of the Father and the Son by sacrificing always loving in order to demonstrate the process of becoming always loving with other persons who are not always loving.

Thanks for the interesting food for thought! Hope this helps, and I look forward to hearing your thoughts!

 

[javid]

Each person is a distinct expression of God’s essence, in which the Father is eternal, the Son is eternal generation, and the Holy Spirit is eternal procession. As an example, perhaps consider God’s essence as Love. Therefore:

1. The Father is the person who is always loving.
2. The Son is the person who is always loving, but expresses always loving by being begotten of the Father.
3. The Holy Spirit is the person who is always loving, but expresses always loving by procession of the Father and the Son by sacrificing always loving in order to demonstrate the process of becoming always loving with other persons who are not always loving.

Thanks for the interesting food for thought! Hope this helps, and I look forward to hearing your thoughts!

Dear Jochoa

I’m not sure that persons are expressions, because it is similar to modalism and god may have more than three expressions.

But my problem is not the formulation of trinity. My problem is this:

The problem is that distinction can’t be the essence, so each person has two parts: essence and distinction. Please answer this.

 

[jochoa]

Dear Jochoa

I’m not sure that persons are expressions, because it is similar to modalism and god may have more than three expressions.

Excellent point! Thanks for sharing your wisdom! As a refined understanding of the Holy Trinity, which does not equate each person as an expression, please consider the following:
Each person distinctly expresses God’s essence. Therefore, as an example in consideration of God’s Essence is Love.

jochoa:

1. The Father is the person who is always loving.
2. The Son is the person who is always loving, but expresses always loving by being begotten of the Father.
3. The Holy Spirit is the person who is always loving, but expresses always loving by procession of the Father and the Son by sacrificing always loving in order to demonstrate the process of becoming always loving with other persons who are not always loving.

javid:

But my problem is not the formulation of trinity. My problem is this:The problem is that distinction can’t be the essence, so each person has two parts: essence and distinction. Please answer this.

Please consider this following article, especially the second paragraph: newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm

From my understanding, the distinction is not the essence. The distinction is the manner of being the essence. The Father is God eternally. The Son is God eternally, by eternal generation. The Holy Spirit is God eternally, by eternal procession. All three are God eternally, but distinctly eternal.

Please continue to share your thoughts, for you are helping me grow in understanding!

 

[rinnie]

Hi. We believe in three persons in one God and each person is God.

They have some thing in common: essence

On the other hand, they have real distinction.

SO each person has two parts: essence and distinction, because essence is not their distinction. But god does not have two parts. So how each person is God?

Look at it this way. There is one God Almighty creator of heaven and earth. We all agree on that.

Now is God Human? Yes we are taught that God is human, in the form of Man and his name is Christ. Now Christ was Human, but also Divine. So we know God is human and Divine.

Now God revealed himself to us in human form through the Son. Now the Son who is God also revealed to us God as the Father.

Now God the Son also revealed to us the Holy Spirit.

now this is a Divine teaching. So only a truly Divine Mind can understand it fully.

Our Human mind tells us Jesus is God, the Father is God and the Holy Spirit is God. One God who revealed himself 3 ways.

Now we believe this because If it were not true Christ would not have told us. But Christ also told us there is thing’s we do not understand because we can only see things of this world and this life.

When the time comes for us to understand this our eyes and ears will be open to understand it. But it has not happened yet.

Our problem is when can only see the 3 persons of the Trinity as human persons. Simply because we only have human understanding.

 

[SPH1]

Personally, I like my Siamese Twins (or Triplets) analogy. Two persons in one body.

God: three persons in one godhead. Individual yet of the same essence.

 

[javid]

From my understanding, the distinction is not the essence. The distinction is the manner of being the essence. The Father is God eternally. The Son is God eternally, by eternal generation. The Holy Spirit is God eternally, by eternal procession. All three are God eternally, but distinctly eternal.

Please continue to share your thoughts, for you are helping me grow in understanding!

Dear Jochoa

Is manner of being essence a real thing that is distict from the essence?

If yes, each person has two parts: essence and Manet of being essence.

If no, is it not a real thing? Or is it a part of essence? Or is it the essence?
If it is not a real thing, so persons do not have real distinction.
If it is a part of essence, God has parts.
If it is the essence, distinction is not real.

If you solve this problem, I will be so hoppy.

God bless you

 

[javid]

Dear all

My problem is not on formulation of trinity. Please answer my question.

God bless you

 

[jochoa]

Thank you very much for further consideration and especially for sharing your thoughts! After further reflection, please consider the following refined understandings of the Persons of God:
Each person distinctly reveals God’s Essence, where each distinct revealing cannot be done by one of the other persons and can only be done by three distinct persons.

Dear Jochoa
Is manner of being essence a real thing that is distict from the essence?

From my refined understandings, I recognize the manner of being the essence is not the distinction, instead, it is the revealing of the essence that is distinct from the essence. There are three different ways of revealing God’s Essence, while fully being God’s Essence. Therefore, One True God is three persons, while each person is fully the One True God.

If yes, each person has two parts: essence and Manet of being essence.

Given the refined understanding: Yes, each person has two parts: essence and manner of revealing essence. However, in consideration of the Father, the essence and manner of revealing the essence are one. For example, if one recognizes God’s Essence is Love. Then the manner of revealing the essence for the Father is Love.

If it is a part of essence, God has parts.

Although God does not have parts, the revelation of God does have parts, namely God, the revelation, God sharing the revelation, and others.

If you solve this problem, I will be so hoppy.

One thing that may help me is if you would share your personal understanding of Who or What God is? For example, I know/understand God is…

• the Creator of Everything.
• the Holy Trinity, according to the Catholic Faith
• Love
• All-Powerful
• the person who is always loving
• Jesus
• the Father
• the Son
• the Holy Spirit
• the Eucharist
• the One True God
  Another understanding is God’s greatest creation is to share Love with other beings.

God bless you

My friend, God is blessing me dearly through our conversation! Thank you very much for sharing your time, consideration, and thoughts with me! I look forward to further discussion, and may God bless you!

 

[javid]

Dear Jochoa

Hi

1.Trinity is essential. When you accept that revealing is distinct from the essence, you must accept that your formulation is like modalism. Especially that God may have more than three revaluations.

2.you said :“each person has two parts” on the other hand you said:“God does not have parts.”
So how each person is God when he has two parts?

3.when you accept that each person has a part that is distinct from the God, you must accept that this part is not the God. Because God is one and God does not have parts. So every thing that is distinct from his essence is creature. So according to your explain each person is creature in some parts.

4.I can’t give any definition for God, because God is unlimited.

Best regards

Javid

 

[jochoa]

Dear Jochoa

Hi

Hello, and thank you for sharing further thoughts! I believe we might make some great leaps in understandings from these latest posts! Please consider the following revisions to my understandings, specifically:

Yes, each person has two parts: essence and manner of revealing essence.

In response to, “If yes, each person has two parts,” the answer is actually no, because the manner a person reveals him/herself to another person is not part of the person. Instead it is an act outside of the person. In other words, not revealing the self, doesn’t change that the self still wholly exists.

1.Trinity is essential. When you accept that revealing is distinct from the essence, you must accept that your formulation is like modalism. Especially that God may have more than three revaluations.

2.you said :“each person has two parts” on the other hand you said:“God does not have parts.”
So how each person is God when he has two parts?

3.when you accept that each person has a part that is distinct from the God, you must accept that this part is not the God. Because God is one and God does not have parts. So every thing that is distinct from his essence is creature. So according to your explain each person is creature in some parts.

Excellent points! You are truly helping me break through some great walls in my understandings of God. My revised understandings are:
There are three distinct persons with the same essence. Their distinction is found in how they reveal the essence. Even though the method of revealing the essence is not the essence, the person(s) of God does not have parts because the method of revealing the essence is outside of the person and is not part of the person.
In consideration of my updated understandings, do you still perceive modalism?

4.I can’t give any definition for God, because God is unlimited.

Although God is unlimited is technically a negative because it translates to God is not limited, you did provide a positive resolution to Who or What is God: “God is one.” Please consider the following on how God, which is one, is embodied in three distinct ways (Trinity).
There are only three distinct ways to embody one:

1. Being One.
2. Being a duplicate or clone of One. In consideration of the Holy Trinity, this One, grants the assumption by others of not being One, in order to reveal to others how to be One.
3. Becoming One. In consideration of the Holy Trinity, this One, completely sacrifices being One, in order to demonstrate the process of becoming One to others who are not One.
   *Earlier you mentioned, “God may have more than three revelations.” Sure, now I do wonder, can someone think of another manner of being One, which does not fit into one of these three distinct ways? Although I know One can be created, but being a created One simplifies to becoming One.

Best regards

Javid

Thank you very much for the enjoyable conversation! I look forward to more!

 

[javid]

Dear Jochoa

Hi

It is nice discussion to me too.

1.Holy Trinity is essential. When you explain it in God’s revelations, you are move it out of essence, in fact there must some creatures for this revelations and this means that this is not essential. On the other hand God may have more revelations. In addition, One person may have several reveals. So, yes, It is modalism and can’t show three persons in One God.

2.Distinction is some thing that one person has and others do not have. For example, God the son is the only begotten son of God. God the father and Holy Spirit are not so.

3.When you said: “Each person distinctly reveals God’s Essence, where each distinct revealing cannot be done by one of the other persons and can only be done by three distinct persons.” It means that the persons in your definition are not almighty. If they are almighty, They can do other’s revealing.

Best regards

Javid

 

[jochoa]

Dear Jochoa

Hi

It is nice discussion to me too.

If possible, I would like to share a different method of understanding the distinct persons of the Holy Trinity, who are each the One True God, without primary consideration of revelation. Please consider the following:

You mentioned, “the Holy Trinity is essential,” therefore, I would like to focus on how no matter What or Who you say God is, God is necessarily three distinct persons that are each the Fullness of God.

I already shared how God being Love is necessarily three distinct persons that are each fully God. As two additional examples, you shared that “God is unlimited,” which positively transcribed is “God is infinite.” In consideration of God is infinite, by necessity, there are three distinct persons that are infinite.

1. The Father, the infinite.
2. The Son, the infinite, by being a duplicate/clone/begotten person of the Father.
3. The Holy Spirit, the infinite, by completely sacrificing infinite being and becoming infinite.

From your post, you appear to know “God is almighty.” Therefore, in consideration of God is almighty, by necessity, there are three distinct persons that are almighty.

1. The Father, the person who is almighty.
2. The Son, the person who is almighty, yet is assumed not to be almighty.
3. The Holy Spirit, the person who is almighty, by completely sacrificing all-might and becoming almighty.

You also rebuttal-ed that, “if each person is almighty, then they can do other’s revealing.” Each person’s revelation is in one another from the perspective of outsiders, however, from the perspective of God, each person is distinct from one another. For example:
The Father, the person who is almighty (Father), has the revelations of the Son and the Holy Spirit in Him, in that there is a time, in which others assume He is not almighty (Son), and there is a time in which the Father is perceived as powerless/non-existent and in perception through time becomes almighty (Holy Spirit).
The Son, the person who is almighty (Father), yet is assumed not to be almighty (Son). As for the Holy Spirit in the Son, there is a time in which the Son is perceived as powerless and perceived as becoming almighty (Holy Spirit).
The Holy Spirit, the person who is almighty (Father), by completely sacrificing all-might and becoming almighty (Holy Spirit), in time is perceived as not being almighty (Son)

Thanks very much for further consideration! I recognize I am sharing very small revisions to my understandings, so I am very grateful for all your time and thoughts!

 

[4unity]

Hi team,

My desire is led the many cult groups to the one and only true Son of God, Jesus our Lord. One day I hope to do this full time.

I have spent many many years studying the Trinity and after everything I believe the greatest revelation the Trinity is that Jesus is the only true Son of God by nature and substance]. Every other Son is like a Pinocchio Son, a creature by grace not by substance and nature. The Son alone derives his true nature FROM and OF the Fathers very substance, this is how the Father and Son are one in nature.

After all this is WHY Jesus was crucified, because the Jews UNDERSTOOD his claim of being the same nature/substance of his true Father. Having the same nature as the Father EG being being the only true Son made Jesus equal with the Father.

John 5:18
For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even **calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
**

John 20:28
Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

Jesus was called “my Lord and my God” not because we should believe he was the Father but because we should truley believe that Jesus is THE true Son of God

John 20:31
But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

This is WHY Jesus built his church on this truth the Foundation when Peter said you are the Christ[Messiah], THE Son of the living God.

Just as Jesus is the Son of man = true man by nature/substance
Jesus is also the one and only true Son of God = true God by nature/substance

The Father is TRULY the Almighty Father.

YET
You can NOT have a eternal Almighty God of NOTHING and especially CANT have a eternally Almighty Father of NOTHING, this is WHY the Son is the Expressed Radiance of the God the Father begotten glory.

Think of a mountain covered in pure snow which is the source of a pure river of life, that flows FROM it.

The Snow is h2o
The snow generates a pure river of life that flows FROM the snow substance down the mountain and under the ground to the wells [where we all get our water essential to life]
The pure river of Life is h20 [the same nature and substance of the snow but it is not the snow.

The Snow is ungenerated
The River is generated FROM the Snow
The Snow is NOT the River and the River is NOT the Snow YET they are FROM and OF one substance.

Think of this when understanding the relationship between the Father and the Son.

The Father is unbegotten, ungenerated, uncaused, unoriginated, he is the source of the whole divinity. Beyond understanding except through his Son.

The Son is begotten, light from light, true God from true God, begotten not made, the expressed substance and radiance of the Fathers begotten glory [the Fathers begotten Word/substance whom through he made the entire universe and heavens and whom he saved the entire World], the one and only true Son by explicit substance and nature.

It is impossible to divide the Substance of the unbegotten Father from the substance of the begotten Son (God). the Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father. When you see the Son you see the Father. The Son is the way the Truth and the Life and noone can gain access to the Father by any other means or ways or beliefts if he has not the Son, he has not the Father.

The Holy Spirit is the unity of the unbegotton God/ the Source and the begotten God his true Son. In unity of Love and Life the Holy Spirit proceeds.

Catechism quotes the Infallible council of Florence

246 The Latin tradition of the Creed confesses that the Spirit “proceeds from the Father and the Son (filioque)”. The Council of Florence in 1438 explains: "The Holy Spirit is eternally from Father and Son; He has his nature and subsistence at once (simul) from the Father and the Son. He proceeds eternally from both as from one principle and through one spiration. . . . And, since the Father has through generation given to the only-begotten Son everything that belongs to the Father, except being Father, the Son has also eternally from the Father, from whom he is eternally born, that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Son."75

If you want an in-depth study please take a look at my website which is dedicated to the trinity, and glorifying The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, one God by nature.

Love and Life in the Son and in his name
Daniel
PS if you want proof that Jesus is revealed as THE Almighty God in scripture who appeared in the old testament please read.
4unity.net/your-savior/

 

[javid]

If possible, I would like to share a different method of understanding the distinct persons of the Holy Trinity, who are each the One True God, without primary consideration of revelation. Please consider the following:

You mentioned, “the Holy Trinity is essential,” therefore, I would like to focus on how no matter What or Who you say God is, God is necessarily three distinct persons that are each the Fullness of God.

I already shared how God being Love is necessarily three distinct persons that are each fully God. As two additional examples, you shared that “God is unlimited,” which positively transcribed is “God is infinite.” In consideration of God is infinite, by necessity, there are three distinct persons that are infinite.

1. The Father, the infinite.
2. The Son, the infinite, by being a duplicate/clone/begotten person of the Father.
3. The Holy Spirit, the infinite, by completely sacrificing infinite being and becoming infinite.

From your post, you appear to know “God is almighty.” Therefore, in consideration of God is almighty, by necessity, there are three distinct persons that are almighty.

1. The Father, the person who is almighty.
2. The Son, the person who is almighty, yet is assumed not to be almighty.
3. The Holy Spirit, the person who is almighty, by completely sacrificing all-might and becoming almighty.

You also rebuttal-ed that, “if each person is almighty, then they can do other’s revealing.” Each person’s revelation is in one another from the perspective of outsiders, however, from the perspective of God, each person is distinct from one another. For example:
The Father, the person who is almighty (Father), has the revelations of the Son and the Holy Spirit in Him, in that there is a time, in which others assume He is not almighty (Son), and there is a time in which the Father is perceived as powerless/non-existent and in perception through time becomes almighty (Holy Spirit).
The Son, the person who is almighty (Father), yet is assumed not to be almighty (Son). As for the Holy Spirit in the Son, there is a time in which the Son is perceived as powerless and perceived as becoming almighty (Holy Spirit).
The Holy Spirit, the person who is almighty (Father), by completely sacrificing all-might and becoming almighty (Holy Spirit), in time is perceived as not being almighty (Son)

Thanks very much for further consideration! I recognize I am sharing very small revisions to my understandings, so I am very grateful for all your time and thoughts!

Dear Jochoa

Hi

Persons of God are fully god so their power has no deplation. According to your God the son and Holy spirit are almoghty.

Anyway, let’s find out what is the distinction. My Question is about it.

 

[4unity]

Dear Jochoa

Hi

Persons of God are fully god so their power has no deplation. According to your God the son and Holy spirit are almoghty.

Anyway, let’s find out what is the distinction. My Question is about it.

Hi Javid,

The distinction is The Father is unbegotten, ungenerated, uncaused, unoriginated, he is the source of the whole divinity. Beyond understanding except through his Son.

The Son is begotten,generated and the expressed Glory FROM the Father. The Father did not became A Father, He was always THE Father.

You can NOT have a Almighty God of nothing especially an eternal Almighty Father of nothing - this goes against common sense, the Father is unchanging and so is his beautiful and only true Son our Lord Jesus.
The Son is Light from light, true God from true God, begotten not made, the expressed substance and radiance of the Fathers begotten glory [the Fathers begotten Word/substance whom through he made the entire universe and heavens and whom he saved the entire World], the one and only true Son by explicit substance and nature.
What is Jesus to you is he your God? Jesus is either God or not? thats why the cults like the watchtower jws teach a angel Jesus is is called Michael the arch angel, there is no such thing as a angel Jesus. The Catholic Church has safe guarded the truth that Jesus is the one and only true Son of God by nature and substance that why the jews wanted to kill him because Jesus made himself equal to the Father by claiming he was indeed the true Son.
I hope this helps you, think of the distinction of the water (river) flowing from its source the snow. The Son is like the river of life and the father like the snow that generates the river. Also think of the sun and its expressed rays that come to earth. If the expressed rays where almighty in power because its source was Almighty then no ampount of distance from the Sun would save us from being burnt to dust.

Life in the Son and in his name.

4unity.net
Daniel

 

[Telstar]

Hi. We believe in three persons in one God and each person is God.

They have some thing in common: essence

On the other hand, they have real distinction.

SO each person has two parts: essence and distinction, because essence is not their distinction. But god does not have two parts. So how each person is God?

There is only one essence in God. The three Persons of God (the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit) all share that same essence. The essence of God is like a type of ‘spiritual energy’ that makes up each of their beings, and holds them all together in the Trinity. It is exclusive to God, and cannot be divided.

There is no perfect way to describe God in human terms. But, some theologians have often used the egg to visually show the basic understanding of the Holy Trinity; God in three Persons. The egg, itself, can be used to represent the Holy Trinity of God, composed of and held together by His spiritual ‘essence’. The egg has 3 parts; the yolk, the albumen (egg-white), and the shell. They are all separate and distinct parts of the egg, but they are all contained within the essence, which makes up the egg, itself. They are indivisible, because without all 3 components being combined, they would no longer be an egg (Trinity). This is basically a very simplified representation of the Holy Trinity of God. It’s not perfect, but it helps us to better understand the concept, visually, with our very limited intellect. I hope that helps you to better understand it, as well.

 

[jochoa]

Persons of God are fully god so their power has no deplation. According to your God the son and Holy spirit are almoghty.

Yes, precisely, the power of each person, who is God, never depletes.

Anyway, let’s find out what is the distinction. My Question is about it.

In consideration of God is almighty: Therefore, God is the person who is almighty.

1. The Father, the person who is almighty.
2. The Son, the person who is almighty, yet is assumed not to be almighty, primarily because He generates/begets/is born/is cloned from the Father.
3. The Holy Spirit, the person who is almighty, by completely sacrificing all-might and becoming almighty, primarily because He proceeds from the Father and the Son.

The essence is in red, and the distinction is in blue.

I did find another method of demonstrating this concept, I would like to revisit your initial question:

javid:

So how each person is God?

God became man, and shared His Godly being with us through the Last Supper.
Therefore, the Eucharist is the person who is God, the High Priest is the person who is God by becoming man, and those who fully consume the Eucharist become the person who is God by Holy Communion.

Thank you very much for the extended discussion! I am really enjoying pondering these questions!

 

[Telstar]

Yes, precisely, the power of each person, who is God, never depletes.

In consideration of God is almighty: Therefore, God is the person who is almighty.

1. The Father, the person who is almighty.
2. The Son, the person who is almighty, yet is assumed not to be almighty, primarily because He generates/begets/is born/is cloned from the Father.
3. The Holy Spirit, the person who is almighty, by completely sacrificing all-might and becoming almighty, primarily because He proceeds from the Father and the Son.

The essence is in red, and the distinction is in blue.

I did find another method of demonstrating this concept, I would like to revisit your initial question: God became man, and shared His Godly being with us through the Last Supper.
Therefore, the Eucharist is the person who is God, the High Priest is the person who is God by becoming man, and those who fully consume the Eucharist become the person who is God by Holy Communion.

Thank you very much for the extended discussion! I am really enjoying pondering these questions!

I’m not exactly sure where you’re getting some of your information, but a lot of things you say are very confusing and do not sound anything like Catholic teaching on the Trinity. If you’re promoting these ideas from conjecture or your own opinions, you should make that clear, so people don’t get the wrong impression. Or, if you could please provide links to where you’re getting these ideas, that would also be helpful.

Thanks.

 

[porthos11]

My FSSP priests always limit themselves when it comes to discussing and preaching the Trinity because, as they say, it’s too easy to fall into heresy.

It might be good advice for everyone here.

The “water-ice-steam” analogy is modalism.
The “family” analogy is polytheism.
The “shamrock” analogy is also heretical, sometimes called “partialism” although there is no historical heresy by that name, but it implies that the three Persons are three “parts” of God.

I can almost guarantee you: use an analogy for the Trinity, and you will fall into heresy (usually unwittingly of course).