Perturbed by Eastern Christianity

[SyroMalankara]

Iconography by the way, was not a major tradition in the Roman church. There were local flourishing of the practice, but always with statuary and other forms as well.

If iconography is a litmus test, the Assyrian Church, one of the most ancient and historically first to reach the East, up to India, China, and Japan, would not pass, since they don’t have a strong tradition of any icons or statues, only beautiful crosses and architecture

 

[scapularkid8]

However, I find Koreans in general to be conservative on these matters.

In my experience, outside of the Cathedral Church of the Cardinal Archbishop of Seoul (Roman Catholic), almost every single Korean church I have been in is bare-bones minimal with hardly any imagery (loosely thought of as western ‘iconography’ by me) at all. It seemed very Protestant influenced and such a departure from what I knew growing up Catholic in the US.

It got me thinking, is the tradition of orthodox (little ‘o’) worship still alive in the Roman Catholic Church worldwide? How could it be so different here?

If iconography is a litmus test, the Assyrian Church, one of the most ancient and historically first to reach the East, up to India, China, and Japan, would not pass, since they don’t have a strong tradition of any icons or statues, only beautiful crosses and architecture

Then I should recalibrate my personal idea of orthodoxy I guess.
I guess it brings up a good point of: what does Orthodoxy mean for me? And more importantly, what does Orthodoxy mean for the Orthodox Church, and Catholic Church?

I touched a little bit on what orthodoxy means for me, but my personal opinion is inconsequential in the face of what is truly orthodoxy in reality. In the end I might have to swallow my own pride and accept that reality for my own salvation.

 

[babochka]

so much heterodoxy in liturgy (not using icons,

change in the Roman Rite, etc.) has come about in Rome which makes me look to the Orthodox Church.

Not using icons is not heresy - condemning the use of icons is heresy.

 

[scapularkid8]

Not using icons is not heresy - condemning the use of icons is heresy.

Oh, that’s true. I guess that is the spirit of the Councils decision.

 

[Casilda]

My main concern is worshipping in the way best suited for salvation in this one life as handed down by the 12 Apostles and their successors. To my view, so much heterodoxy in liturgy (not using icons, change in the Roman Rite, etc.) has come about in Rome which makes me look to the Orthodox Church.

Yes, to save my soul, the Lord has placed me where I am today. It’s not perfect, the Liturgy has gone through latinization and is only a shadow of what it once was. Alas, those of us who still remain who remember the Latin Mass of Ages, can only wait.

 

[Rosebud77]

Yes, to save my soul, the Lord has placed me where I am today. It’s not perfect, the Liturgy has gone through latinization and is only a shadow of what it once was. Alas, those of us who still remain who remember the Latin Mass of Ages, can only wait.

Beautifully expressed; thank you. You give me courage to give my own views. When I came to ireland from a very solitary life on a small island, I sought…Initial approaches to RC here were not edifying and I looked further, and thought deeply re Orthodox then.“talked” online to a priest and had more guidance than I had had from the Catholic church here. . But there was the issue of distance etc. I live in deep rural and isolated places and am becoming less mobile… And also I am by nature and by other considerations a true solitary and the "political"and other aspects do not impinge on my deep and deepening faith. They are for others not for me.

Speaking of Latinmass… I went once as there was Latin Mass at a local church.But it was not the place for me as so unfamiliar etc. I am assured that a High Mass is different and mayeb I should try online.

It was also unfortunate that I was in the gallery and that day my fear of heights developed which is symbolic enough !

But for me, the silence is of God, . When I used to pray the divine Office, I would get caught up in meditation on a single verse; a wise nun told me as did another that I had moved beyond vocal prayer.

Which was the provision of God for a life that is becoming more apart each year.

Many paths; all of beauty,

 

[Rosebud77]

I know Orthodox Churches that are situated next door to each other that have nothing to do with each other. Their bishop left them and started his own branch. Several people went with him.

Ah that is sad. I was once in Omagh where all the churches are on a hill, and the same there

 

[JurisPrudens]

What do you mean by “flexibility”? Cultural flexibility (obviously, Catholics can be found in every Christian country)? Locational flexibility (there are Catholic churches everywhere)?

I mean cultural flexibility. The Eastern Orthodox tend to pay TOO much attention to the tradition (in liturgy, in lifestyle, in everything) and look down upon the culture of the non-Orthodox nations.

 

[jaimeleglise]

I’m sure some of your Catholic brethren can inform you about similar cases with Catholic Churches in North America, particularly the Polish and the Irish.
As for any bishop who left to form his own Church, he would no longer be Orthodox since by definition he has cut himself off from the Church. If you want to consider that as being splits in the Orthodox Church then you have to acknowledge there are also many splits in the Catholic Church for the same reason.

Ok, I do apologize for what I said. I do however like having a pope in charge.

 

[scapularkid8]

I mean cultural flexibility. The Eastern Orthodox tend to pay TOO much attention to the tradition (in liturgy, in lifestyle, in everything) and look down upon the culture of the non-Orthodox nations.

And my experience could not be more opposite. Completely 180.

 

[Jon_Mallory]

My main concern is worshipping in the way best suited for salvation in this one life as handed down by the 12 Apostles and their successors. To my view, so much heterodoxy in liturgy (not using icons, change in the Roman Rite, etc.) has come about in Rome which makes me look to the Orthodox Church.

The changed landscape of the RCC brought about by the implementation or misinterpretation of Vatican II is more than just a change of scenery. The liturgical and architectural changes reflect a change in the theology of the RCC. The Catechism reflects classical Catholic teaching for the most part, but the reality on the ground is that most Catholics do not think about the saints, grace, and good works as they were conceived of before Vatican II. Gone are the days of the Baltimore Catechism, which is fast becoming a relic. Liturgy is subject to the aesthetics of mere taste and the view of Beauty as an objective value has been lost. The change in landscape reflects a modernist mindset in which the sense of the Sacred has been diminished and now exists in an attenuated form.

 

[adamhovey1988]

The changed landscape of the RCC brought about by the implementation or misinterpretation of Vatican II is more than just a change of scenery. The liturgical and architectural changes reflect a change in the theology of the RCC. The Catechism reflects classical Catholic teaching for the most part, but the reality on the ground is that most Catholics do not think about the saints, grace, and good works as they were conceived of before Vatican II. Gone are the days of the Baltimore Catechism, which is fast becoming a relic. Liturgy is subject to the aesthetics of mere taste and the view of Beauty as an objective value has been lost. The change in landscape reflects a modernist mindset in which the sense of the Sacred has been diminished and now exists in an attenuated form.

Hi there do you know that I am a practicing orthodox Catholic? And then I don’t consider Vatican II heretical? You know if that’s your preference your preferences what was before Vatican II that’s cool and everything I’ve gone to Latin Mass, but please don’t make the rest of us feel bad for not choosing to accept your view of the way Catholicism should be. Not to mention I think you’re de-railing the thread to make it about Vatican 2 and not Eastern Christianity

 

[Jon_Mallory]

Hi there do you know that I am a practicing orthodox Catholic? And then I don’t consider Vatican II heretical? You know if that’s your preference your preferences what was before Vatican II that’s cool and everything I’ve gone to Latin Mass, but please don’t make the rest of us feel bad for not choosing to accept your view of the way Catholicism should be. Not to mention I think you’re de-railing the thread to make it about Vatican 2 and not Eastern Christianity

Did I say I preferred the Latin mass in my post? No. Did I say Vatican II was heretical? No. I wrote “…the implementation or misinterpretation of Vatican II”. The jury still seems to be up on how to best implement it. The Tridentine mass was fraught with problems. The priest did his thing while the laity did their thing. There was no participation on part of the laity and Vatican II was right to correct it. I do not romanticize the past and I do not think my analysis of the change in landscape reflecting a different mindset is controversial. Look up any architectural style such as brutalist architecture or Gothic architecture and you will discover that the way buildings are designed conveys more than just mere style.

Regarding your point about me derailing the thread, I think you are wrong. I was merely expounding on the OP’s thoughts about the liturgy. It is well known that Eastern Catholics/Orthodox have resisted drastic changes to their liturgy and it is usually one among many reasons why Western Christians are drawn to it. Also, for the record, I am not Catholic. I am a catechumen in the Orthodox Church and have no desire to lift the EF over the OF. In my opinion, both have problems and let’s just leave it at that.

 

[jaimeleglise]

Ah that is sad. I was once in Omagh where all the churches are on a hill, and the same there

That is very sad, also.:bighanky:

 

[Reuben_J]

The changed landscape of the RCC brought about by the implementation or misinterpretation of Vatican II is more than just a change of scenery. The liturgical and architectural changes reflect a change in the theology of the RCC. The Catechism reflects classical Catholic teaching for the most part, but the reality on the ground is that most Catholics do not think about the saints, grace, and good works as they were conceived of before Vatican II. Gone are the days of the Baltimore Catechism, which is fast becoming a relic. Liturgy is subject to the aesthetics of mere taste and the view of Beauty as an objective value has been lost. The change in landscape reflects a modernist mindset in which the sense of the Sacred has been diminished and now exists in an attenuated form.

I disagree on your subjective personal opinion. I also think that is not true. At least not for me, that is not me.

 

[chimo]

I can’t think of a less “gotcha” title, so that’ll have to do.

For years (since college) I have been very interested in Eastern Christian practices, particularly private prayer (using the Publican’s Prayer Book) and liturgy. Lately, I feel just so confused. This is becoming a huge worry for me because I don’t know if I should be living and practicing as a Byzantine Catholic or Eastern Orthodox or…

I am reading endlessly on Eastern Christian topics and heavily considering conversion to Orthodoxy, but taking my time. Any advice anyone can give to guide my journey or relieve some of this stress I feel over having to “choose” would help immensely.

Surely there have been others here in this boat. Maybe here we can share our experiences and talk about any conclusions you came to in your journey.
(Cradle Latin here, by the way.)

I do not think if you had chosen Western Christianity (Roman Catholic) or Eastern Christianity either Eastern Catholic or Eastern Orthodox you will lose something. Christ is to be found in all these Churches as well as the Holy Spirit. You will receive the same Jesus, the same Holy Spirit and all that matters are you ready to accept that. I had grown up more Catholic in my early formation years but I had learned from my father that I was baptized in the Eastern Orthodox Church, a Church I had not known or ever experienced. When I decided to venture into the Eastern Orthodox Church I was very surprised how I seemed to like it even to seem to be more part of it. My inner self seems to be more geared for the Eastern Orthodox Church and while I had grown up more “Roman Catholic” I did not waver this important legacy that taught me in my early formation years but I in fact use it now that I am more connected to the Eastern Orthodox Church. I am in fact feel at home in both Churches but my stay in the Orthodox Church is very much like someone discovering your wife while at the same time having strong feelings to the family that raised me. If your heart is speaking to you to be more involved with Eastern Christianity even with the Eastern Orthodox try it for a while and see if it expounds in you to connect more to it. Your heart will let you know. I hope this will help you. May God direct you where He will like you to be.

 

[scapularkid8]

I do not think if you had chosen Western Christianity (Roman Catholic) or Eastern Christianity either Eastern Catholic or Eastern Orthodox you will lose something. Christ is to be found in all these Churches as well as the Holy Spirit. You will receive the same Jesus, the same Holy Spirit and all that matters are you ready to accept that. I had grown up more Catholic in my early formation years but I had learned from my father that I was baptized in the Eastern Orthodox Church, a Church I had not known or ever experienced. When I decided to venture into the Eastern Orthodox Church I was very surprised how I seemed to like it even to seem to be more part of it. My inner self seems to be more geared for the Eastern Orthodox Church and while I had grown up more “Roman Catholic” I did not waver this important legacy that taught me in my early formation years but I in fact use it now that I am more connected to the Eastern Orthodox Church. I am in fact feel at home in both Churches but my stay in the Orthodox Church is very much like someone discovering your wife while at the same time having strong feelings to the family that raised me. If your heart is speaking to you to be more involved with Eastern Christianity even with the Eastern Orthodox try it for a while and see if it expounds in you to connect more to it. Your heart will let you know. I hope this will help you. May God direct you where He will like you to be.

Thanks for this. Its a helpful perspective.

 

[Jon_Mallory]

I disagree on your subjective personal opinion. I also think that is not true. At least not for me, that is not me.

I’ll make another thread to discuss some examples. I’ll also look at some statistics. You are right. It is my opinion and I will gladly accept correction.