Pet Peeve...A comment of Tim Staples

[SingleMomMonica]

Okay, I get what you’re saying. You’re claim is the Early Church says James was “in charge” at the Council of Jerusalem. Where is the proof in addition to the testimony you posted from St. John Chrysostom? My point is that IF the Early Church teaches Peter wasn’t “in charge” how does that jive vis-a-vis with the Church’s teaching on the Papacy?
I’m not trying to be mean or start something. I’m sorry if I came across as harsh, it’s not my intention.
In Christ, Kiechlin

Kiechlin,

Your questions are better for another thread - perhaps start one on the early Church’s understanding of the role of Bishops and the Bishops of major cities that were given the title of Patriarchs by the Ecumenical Councils if you want an understanding.

This thread is not about all that, but about Tim’s comment that Acts 15 “clearly” shows St. Peter being in charge of the Council of Jerusalem and how his comment relates with the statement of the early Church Father John the Golden-Mouth (Chrysostom) that is direct opposition to Tim’s claim.

Thanks,
Monica

 

[ralphinal]

Who called the Council?

 

[StrawberryJam]

Maybe Tim will post himself here to clarify. I think he is in a working relationship with this site or connected to it now.

I know what you mean about the shoe thing too. I get the same way when I see a glove out there.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I’ve responded to your concerns with explanations of the Council of Jerusalem and with a direct quote from Chrysostom himself.

Any response to these posts?

Second Request.

 

[SingleMomMonica]

How 'bout this from Chrysostom himself?

“And should any one say, ‘Why then did James receive the throne of Jerusalem?’: this is my answer: that He [Jesus] appointed this man (Peter) not teacher of that throne, but of the habitable globe.” (John Chrysostom, A.D. 387, Ib. Hom. lxxxviii. n. 6, p. 600, in Joseph Berrington, John Kirk, eds., and James Waterworth, rev. The Faith of Catholics, vol. 2 (New York: Pustet & Co., 1884), 34.)

James was the head of the church in Jerusalem. Peter was the head of the Church on earth.

This is a great quote for you to bring up so that it can be addressed. It is this quote actually that I clung onto about a year ago to begin receiving the Mysteries in the Catholic Church after continued pressure from my devote Catholic friends to come back to the Catholic Church - long story. But anyway, I immediately missed Orthodoxy, but stayed away for about a year because of this quote attributed to St. John Chrysostom.

You may or may not be aware that the Catholic Church (or at least some individuals within the Catholic Church) around the 8th and 9th centuries especially, during the time that Rome was attempting to advance the claims of the Papacy (from primacy to supremacy, etc.), made many forgeries.

Two of the main forgeries that have continued to resurface even after been proven forgeries by Catholic Historians through out the centuries (several of which were burned alive for questioning their authenticity in the 13th century) are:

The Donation of Constantine and The Decretals of Pseudo-Isidore. Lorenzo Valla of the 1400s was the first Catholic Scholar to not be killed after proving them forgeries by noting that the Donation of Constantine, supposedly written by Constantine before Byzantium was renamed Constantinople, wrote that the Pope held supremacy over the 4 prinicple seats naming them Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem and Constantinople - however, as pointed out at the supposed time of this writing, Byzantium had not been renamed, *but even more than that - at the time of the supposed writing Jerusalem had not yet become a patriarchal see - that didn’t happen until the Council of Chalcedon in 451, yet Constantine died in 337. *There was no possible way that these documents are legitimate.

There are other things found in these works that prove them to be forgeries, but I don’t find it necessary to recount more than this since it is clear that Constantine could not have possibly known and written about something that did not occur until nearly a century after his death.

I discovered that what I’d honestly thought was a quote of St, John Chrysostom was actually part of the work (based on the above forgeries) called: Thesaurus of Greek Fathers which had been determined to be a mix of forged quotations attributed to St. John Chrysostom, St. Cyril of Alexandria and St. Maximus the Confessor by 19th Century Catholic Historian Lord Acton.

Unfortunately before it was made know that the work made up of forgeries, Thomas Aquinas in his work: Against the Heresies of the Greeks had relied on these forgeries, they have since, even though are known to be forgeries have even be placed in more recent works like that of James Likoudis’ book: Ending the Greek Schism.

Because it found itself in Thomas Aquinas’ works, he is considered a Saint in the Catholic Church, these forged quotes continue to be repeated and repeated.

However, just because a lie is repeated, knowingly or unknowingly (think in the case of Thomas Aquinas it to have been unknowingly), by respectible persons does not mean that the lie is anything other than a lie. A lie cannot be turned into Truth.

I just found out this information 4 months ago; however, what I should have done to save myself, was ask my priest or my spiritual father when I first came across the quote as the fact that it is a forgery is widely known…just not by me at the time I first came across that quote.

 

[SingleMomMonica]

Second Request.

Patience is a virtue that I don’t have much of either , so I’m trying not to be offended by the size/color of your remark. The funny thing is, I was actually typing up the response to you as you posted the above remark.

I apologize it took me so long to respond to you. There was a lot of information for me to include in the response and I felt I needed a normal computer keyboard to do it, my normal access to the internet and therefore CAF is my cell phone.

 

[SingleMomMonica]

Maybe Tim will post himself here to clarify. I think he is in a working relationship with this site or connected to it now.

That would be great if Tim responded! I didn’t even think it was a possibility.

I know what you mean about the shoe thing too. I get the same way when I see a glove out there.

Stupid Shoe! Stupid Glove!

 

[SingleMomMonica]

Who called the Council?

That’s a great question!

The Bible, in Acts 15:1 says it was “certain men” who came preaching that Christians must be circumcised and that after Paul and Barnabus had a huge dispute with them that it was “they” who determined that Paul and Barnabus and some of their number should go to Jerusalem for a council.

To me the Scripture is not clear on who the “they” is, but reading it in the context it appears it was not Paul and Barnabus, but looks like it was either some or all of the “certain men”. It is clear that the council was not called by a single person, but at least 2 people since “they” is used, not “him” (or “her” - not that it could have been a woman).

It’s possible that the early Church Fathers have written on this issue of who the “they” were, but I’m not sure. I honestly don’t think it matters who the “they” who called the council were, the important thing to me is that a Council was held to settle the dispute.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Patience is a virtue that I don’t have much of either , so I’m trying not to be offended by the size/color of your remark.

Nor should you sense I was simply trying to catch your eye knowing that you are being swamped with lots of posts demanding your attention. I thank you for your lengthy response on Chrysostom, and it will give me something to research for myself.

Are you really basing your entire Church affiliation on the opinion of one man, Chrysostom? Interesting. What about all these guys who wrote long before he did?

**Clement of Alexandria **

“[T]he blessed Peter, the chosen, the preeminent, the first among the disciples, for whom alone with himself the Savior paid the tribute [Matt. 17:27], quickly grasped and understood their meaning. And what does he say? ‘Behold, we have left all and have followed you’” [Matt. 19:27, Mark 10:28] (*Who Is the Rich Man That is Saved? *21:3–5 [A.D. 200]).

**Tertullian **

“[T]he Lord said to Peter, ‘On this rock I will build my Church, I have given you the keys of the kingdom of heaven [and] whatever you shall have bound or loosed on earth will be bound or loosed in heaven’ [Matt. 16:18–19]. . . . Upon you, he says, I will build my Church; and I will give to *you *the keys, not to the Church; and whatever *you *shall have bound or *you *shall have loosed, not what they shall have bound or they shall have loosed” (Modesty 21:9–10 [A.D. 220]).

**Letter of Clement to James **

“Be it known to you, my lord, that Simon [Peter], who, for the sake of the true faith, and the most sure foundation of his doctrine, was set apart to be the foundation of the Church, and for this end was, by Jesus himself, with his truthful mouth, named Peter, the first-fruits of our Lord, the first of the apostles; to whom first the Father revealed the Son; whom the Christ, with good reason, blessed; the called, and elect” (Letter of Clement to James 2 [A.D. 221]).

Origen (248 A.D.)

“If we were to attend carefully to the Gospels, we should also find, in relation to those things which seem to be common to Peter . . . a great difference and a preeminence in the things [Jesus] said to Peter, compared with the second class [of apostles]. For it is no small difference that Peter received the keys not of one heaven but of more, and in order that whatsoever things he binds on earth may be bound not in one heaven but in them all, as compared with the many who bind on earth and loose on earth, so that these things are bound and loosed not in [all] the heavens, as in the case of Peter, but in one only; for they do not reach so high a stage with power as Peter to bind and loose in all the heavens” (Commentary on Matthew 13:31 [A.D. 248]).

Cyprian of Carthage (251 A.D.)

“The Lord says to Peter: ‘I say to you,’ He says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not overcome it. And to you I will give the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatever things you bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth, they shall be loosed also in heaven.’ And again He says to him after His resurrection: ‘Feed my sheep.’ On him He builds the Church, and to him He gives the command to feed the sheep; and although He assigns a like power to all the Apostles, yet He founded a single chair, and He established by His own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was; but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the Apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?” (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4 [A.D. 251]).

Cyril of Jerusalem (315-386 A.D.)

“the chiefest and foremost of the apostles” (Catechetical Lectures, 2, 19).

“In the power of the same Holy Spirit, Peter, both the chief of the apostles and the keeper of the keys of the kingdom of heaven, in the name of Christ healed Aeneas the paralytic at Lydda, which is now called Diospolis” [Acts 9:32–34] (Catechetical Lectures, 17:27 [A.D. 350]).

**Ephraim **

“[Jesus said:] Simon, my follower, I have made you the foundation of the holy Church. I betimes called you Peter, because you will support all its buildings. You are the inspector of those who will build on earth a Church for me. If they should wish to build what is false, you, the foundation, will condemn them. You are the head of the fountain from which my teaching flows; you are the chief of my disciples. Through you I will give drink to all peoples. Yours is that life-giving sweetness which I dispense. I have chosen you to be, as it were, the first-born in my institution so that, as the heir, you may be executor of my treasures. I have given you the keys of my kingdom. Behold, I have given you authority over all my treasures” (Homilies 4:1 [A.D. 351]).

**Ambrose **

“[Christ] made answer: ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock will I build my Church . . .’ Could he not, then, strengthen the faith of the man to whom, acting on his own authority, he gave the kingdom, whom he called the rock, thereby declaring him to be the foundation of the Church [Matt. 16:18]?” (The Faith 4:5 [A.D. 379]).

 

[Randy_Carson]

More from Chrysostom:

**John Chrysostom (347–407) **

"He was the chosen one of the apostles, the mouth of the disciples, the leader of the band; on this account also Paul went up upon a time to inquire of him rather than the others. And at the same time to show him that he must now be of good cheer, since the denial was done away, Jesus puts into his hands the chief authority among the brethren; and he brings forward not the denial, nor reproaches him with what had taken place, but says, “If you love me, preside over your brethren, and show now the warm love that you have always manifested and in which you rejoiced; and the life that you said you would lay down for me now give for my sheep” (Commentary on St. John’s Gospel, homily 88). Later in the same homily, John Chrysostom observes that Jesus “appointed” Peter “teacher of the world.”

Alternate Translation
He saith to him, “Feed my sheep”. Why does He pass over the others and speak of the sheep to Peter? He was the chosen one of the Apostles, the mouth of the disciples, the head of the choir. For this reason Paul went up to see him rather than the others. And also to show him that he must have confidence now that his denial had been purged away. He entrusts him with the rule prostasia] over the brethren. . . . If anyone should say “Why then was it James who received the See of Jerusalem?”, I should reply that He made Peter the teacher not of that see but of the whole world.
St. John Chrysostom, Homily 88 on John, 1. Cf. Origen, “In Ep. ad Rom.”, 5:10; Ephraem Syrus “Hymn. in B. Petr.” in “Bibl. Orient. Assemani”, 1:95; Leo I, “Serm. iv de natal.”, 2].

And here is a lengthy paper on Chrysostom containing many, many quotes extolling Peter:

bringyou.to/apologetics/num52.htm

 

[ralphinal]

That’s a great question!

The Bible, in Acts 15:1 says it was “certain men” who came preaching that Christians must be circumcised and that after Paul and Barnabus had a huge dispute with them that it was “they” who determined that Paul and Barnabus and some of their number should go to Jerusalem for a council.

To me the Scripture is not clear on who the “they” is, but reading it in the context it appears it was not Paul and Barnabus, but looks like it was either some or all of the “certain men”. It is clear that the council was not called by a single person, but at least 2 people since “they” is used, not “him” (or “her” - not that it could have been a woman).

It’s possible that the early Church Fathers have written on this issue of who the “they” were, but I’m not sure. I honestly don’t think it matters who the “they” who called the council were, the important thing to me is that a Council was held to settle the dispute.

Your translation is different than mine. Mine says that it was decided that they would go to Jerusalem. The they is Paul and Barnabas.

Even then, it does not say who got everyone together to discuss it.

 

[Kiechlin]

Nor should you sense I was simply trying to catch your eye knowing that you are being swamped with lots of posts demanding your attention. I thank you for your lengthy response on Chrysostom, and it will give me something to research for myself.

Are you really basing your entire Church affiliation on the opinion of one man, Chrysostom? Interesting. What about all these guys who wrote long before he did?

**Clement of Alexandria **

“[T]he blessed Peter, the chosen, the preeminent, the first among the disciples, for whom alone with himself the Savior paid the tribute [Matt. 17:27], quickly grasped and understood their meaning. And what does he say? ‘Behold, we have left all and have followed you’” [Matt. 19:27, Mark 10:28] (*Who Is the Rich Man That is Saved? *21:3–5 [A.D. 200]).

**Tertullian **

**Letter of Clement to James **

“Be it known to you, my lord, that Simon [Peter], who, for the sake of the true faith, and the most sure foundation of his doctrine, was set apart to be the foundation of the Church, and for this end was, by Jesus himself, with his truthful mouth, named Peter, the first-fruits of our Lord, the first of the apostles; to whom first the Father revealed the Son; whom the Christ, with good reason, blessed; the called, and elect” (Letter of Clement to James 2 [A.D. 221]).

Origen (248 A.D.)

“If we were to attend carefully to the Gospels, we should also find, in relation to those things which seem to be common to Peter . . . a great difference and a preeminence in the things [Jesus] said to Peter, compared with the second class [of apostles]. For it is no small difference that Peter received the keys not of one heaven but of more, and in order that whatsoever things he binds on earth may be bound not in one heaven but in them all, as compared with the many who bind on earth and loose on earth, so that these things are bound and loosed not in [all] the heavens, as in the case of Peter, but in one only; for they do not reach so high a stage with power as Peter to bind and loose in all the heavens” (Commentary on Matthew 13:31 [A.D. 248]).

Cyprian of Carthage (251 A.D.)

“The Lord says to Peter: ‘I say to you,’ He says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not overcome it. And to you I will give the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatever things you bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth, they shall be loosed also in heaven.’ And again He says to him after His resurrection: ‘Feed my sheep.’ On him He builds the Church, and to him He gives the command to feed the sheep; and although He assigns a like power to all the Apostles, yet He founded a single chair, and He established by His own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was; but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the Apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?” (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4 [A.D. 251]).

Cyril of Jerusalem (315-386 A.D.)

“the chiefest and foremost of the apostles” (Catechetical Lectures, 2, 19).

“In the power of the same Holy Spirit, Peter, both the chief of the apostles and the keeper of the keys of the kingdom of heaven, in the name of Christ healed Aeneas the paralytic at Lydda, which is now called Diospolis” [Acts 9:32–34] (Catechetical Lectures, 17:27 [A.D. 350]).

**Ephraim **

“[Jesus said:] Simon, my follower, I have made you the foundation of the holy Church. I betimes called you Peter, because you will support all its buildings. You are the inspector of those who will build on earth a Church for me. If they should wish to build what is false, you, the foundation, will condemn them. You are the head of the fountain from which my teaching flows; you are the chief of my disciples. Through you I will give drink to all peoples. Yours is that life-giving sweetness which I dispense. I have chosen you to be, as it were, the first-born in my institution so that, as the heir, you may be executor of my treasures. I have given you the keys of my kingdom. Behold, I have given you authority over all my treasures” (Homilies 4:1 [A.D. 351]).

**Ambrose **

“[Christ] made answer: ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock will I build my Church . . .’ Could he not, then, strengthen the faith of the man to whom, acting on his own authority, he gave the kingdom, whom he called the rock, thereby declaring him to be the foundation of the Church [Matt. 16:18]?” (The Faith 4:5 [A.D. 379]).

Thank you, RandyCarson, that goes right to my point, which the OP seems to be missing-you can’t look at just ONE Father of the Church, make the claim about Acts 15 without reading the consensus of the Early Church:clapping:

 

[Sword_Brethren]

Mickey has graciously provided this quote of St. John Chrysostom regarding Acts 15. St. John Chrysostom (meaning Golden-Mouth) is a highly regarded early Church Father. St. John Chrysostom also saw that St. James was the one in charge at this council.
y?

“

‘He saith unto him, Feed My sheep.’ And why, having passed by the others, doth He
speak with Peter on these matters? He was the chosen one of the Apostles, the mouth of
the disciples, the leader of the band; on this account also Paul went up upon a time to
enquire of him rather than the others. And at the same time to show him that he must now
be of good cheer, since the denial was done away, Jesus putteth into his hands the chief
authority among the brethren; and He bringeth not forward the denial, nor reproacheth
him with what had taken place, but saith, “If thou lovest Me, preside over thy brethren,
and the warm love which thou didst ever manifest, and in which thou didst rejoice, show
thou now; and the life which thou saidst thou wouldest lay down for Me, now give for
My sheep” (Homily 88 on John, NPNF1,XIV:331).

Chrysostom could not have made it any clearer. According to Chrysostom, Peter had
authority over the other apostles, or in Chrysostom’s words Peter had , ‘the chief
authority among the brethren.’ Peter not James nor any other apostle had this increase in
authority. Webster counters this unambiguous passage by citing passages describing the
other apostles with phrases such as, ‘chosen one of the Apostles,’ ‘mouth of the
disciples,’ and ‘leader of the band’ in order to obfuscate the truth. Chrysostom anticipated
Webster reply when he writes a few lines later:

“And if any should say, ‘How then did James receive the chair at Jerusalem?’ I would
make this reply, that He [Jesus] appointed Peter , not of the chair [in Jerusalem], but of
the world” (Homily 88 on John, NPNF1,XIV:332).

In one fell swoop, Chrysostom destroys Webster’s novel notion that James was equal in
authority to Peter.

The passage continues with these golden words:

“ ‘Then Peter turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; who also
leaned on His breast at supper; and saith, Lord, and what shall this man do?’ Wherefore
hath he reminded us of that reclining? Not without cause or in a chance way, but to show
us what boldness Peter had after the denial. For he who then did not dare to question
Jesus, but committed the office to another, was even entrusted with the chief authority
over the brethren, and not only doth not commit to another what relates to himself, but
himself now puts a question to his Master concerning another. John is silent, but Peter
speaks” (Homily 88 on John, NPNF1,XIV:332).

 

[Sword_Brethren]

Yesterday on Catholic Radio (may have been live or a repeat of a Catholic Answers Call In Show) I heard Tim Staples repeat something I’ve heard him say before…something along the lines of How Clear It Is in Acts 15 That St. Peter Was In Charge At The Council Record There.

That is a Pet Peeve of mine…just like seeing a random single shoe in the road. I mean really, how does that happen? Where is the other shoe? Didn’t the person feel it when it fell off? Why didn’t they go back and get it? If they were trying to throw them out, where is the other Shoe? Where is the other Shoe!!!

When I read Acts 15, I see that St. James was clearly the one in authority at that council. When I was Catholic, I tried really hard to read into it that St. Peter was the one in charge, but I had to be honest with myself that that was just Not the case. The passage is too clear that St. James heard everyone who wanted to speak on the matter and then St. James made the decisions of the council based on what he heard.

‘He saith unto him, Feed My sheep.’ And why, having passed by the others, doth He
speak with Peter on these matters? He was the chosen one of the Apostles, the mouth of
the disciples, the leader of the band; on this account also Paul went up upon a time to
enquire of him rather than the others. And at the same time to show him that he must now
be of good cheer, since the denial was done away, Jesus putteth into his hands the chief
authority among the brethren; and He bringeth not forward the denial, nor reproacheth
him with what had taken place, but saith, “If thou lovest Me, preside over thy brethren,
and the warm love which thou didst ever manifest, and in which thou didst rejoice, show
thou now; and the life which thou saidst thou wouldest lay down for Me, now give for
My sheep” (Homily 88 on John, NPNF1,XIV:331).

Chrysostom could not have made it any clearer. According to Chrysostom, Peter had
authority over the other apostles, or in Chrysostom’s words Peter had , ‘the chief
authority among the brethren.’ Peter not James nor any other apostle had this increase in
authority. Webster counters this unambiguous passage by citing passages describing the
other apostles with phrases such as, ‘chosen one of the Apostles,’ ‘mouth of the
disciples,’ and ‘leader of the band’ in order to obfuscate the truth. Chrysostom anticipated
Webster reply when he writes a few lines later:

“And if any should say, ‘How then did James receive the chair at Jerusalem?’ I would
make this reply, that He [Jesus] appointed Peter , not of the chair [in Jerusalem], but of
the world” (Homily 88 on John, NPNF1,XIV:332).

In one fell swoop, Chrysostom destroys Webster’s novel notion that James was equal in
authority to Peter.

The passage continues with these golden words:

“ ‘Then Peter turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; who also
leaned on His breast at supper; and saith, Lord, and what shall this man do?’ Wherefore
hath he reminded us of that reclining? Not without cause or in a chance way, but to show
us what boldness Peter had after the denial. For he who then did not dare to question
Jesus, but committed the office to another, was even entrusted with the chief authority
over the brethren, and not only doth not commit to another what relates to himself, but
himself now puts a question to his Master concerning another. John is silent, but Peter
speaks” (Homily 88 on John, NPNF1,XIV:332).

Mickey has graciously provided this quote of St. John Chrysostom regarding Acts 15. St. John Chrysostom (meaning Golden-Mouth) is a highly regarded early Church Father. St. John Chrysostom also saw that St. James was the one in charge at this council.

I’m really curious as to what Tim Staples would have to say about St. John Chrysostom’s position and how Tim feels comfortable holding a position which clearly goes against the early Church Fathers in the matter. But since I can’t ask him, I’m turning it over to the people here on Catholic Answers Forum.

What are your thoughts after reading Acts 15 in it’s entirety?

 

[Sword_Brethren]

"He saith unto him, Feed My sheep.’ And why, having passed by the others, doth He
speak with Peter on these matters? He was the chosen one of the Apostles, the mouth of
the disciples, the leader of the band; on this account also Paul went up upon a time to
enquire of him rather than the others. And at the same time to show him that he must now
be of good cheer, since the denial was done away, Jesus putteth into his hands the chief
authority among the brethren; and He bringeth not forward the denial, nor reproacheth
him with what had taken place, but saith, “If thou lovest Me, preside over thy brethren,
and the warm love which thou didst ever manifest, and in which thou didst rejoice, show
thou now; and the life which thou saidst thou wouldest lay down for Me, now give for
My sheep” (Homily 88 on John, NPNF1,XIV:331).

Chrysostom could not have made it any clearer. According to Chrysostom, Peter had
authority over the other apostles, or in Chrysostom’s words Peter had , ‘the chief
authority among the brethren.’ Peter not James nor any other apostle had this increase in
authority. Webster counters this unambiguous passage by citing passages describing the
other apostles with phrases such as, ‘chosen one of the Apostles,’ ‘mouth of the
disciples,’ and ‘leader of the band’ in order to obfuscate the truth. Chrysostom anticipated
Webster reply when he writes a few lines later:
” (Homily 88 on John, NPNF1,XIV:332).

In one fell swoop, Chrysostom destroys Webster’s novel notion that James was equal in
authority to Peter.

The passage continues with these golden words:

“ ‘Then Peter turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; who also
leaned on His breast at supper; and saith, Lord, and what shall this man do?’ Wherefore
hath he reminded us of that reclining? Not without cause or in a chance way, but to show
us what boldness Peter had after the denial. For he who then did not dare to question
Jesus, but committed the office to another, was even entrusted with the chief authority
over the brethren, and not only doth not commit to another what relates to himself, but
himself now puts a question to his Master concerning another. John is silent, but Peter
speaks” (Homily 88 on John, NPNF1,XIV:332).

catholic-convert.com/wp-content/uploads/Documents/Webster11Chrysostom2.pdf
Legitimate quote of St. John Chrysostom or a forgery?

 

[SingleMomMonica]

Randy,

The quotes you are providing shows that you may have missed completely the topic at hand.

The topic at hand is: At the Council of Jerusalem recorded in Acts 15 of the New Testament…Is Tim Staples correct that St. Peter was “in charge” of that council or is St. John Chrysostom correct that St. James was “in charge” of that council?

In none of the below quotes you have provide address the Council of Jerusalem nor Acts 15.

I’m about to read your next post, perhaps you have address the topic of this particular thread in it.

Blessings,
Monica

**Clement of Alexandria **

“[T]he blessed Peter, the chosen, the preeminent, the first among the disciples, for whom alone with himself the Savior paid the tribute [Matt. 17:27], quickly grasped and understood their meaning. And what does he say? ‘Behold, we have left all and have followed you’” [Matt. 19:27, Mark 10:28] (*Who Is the Rich Man That is Saved? *21:3–5 [A.D. 200]).

**Tertullian **

“[T]he Lord said to Peter, ‘On this rock I will build my Church, I have given you the keys of the kingdom of heaven [and] whatever you shall have bound or loosed on earth will be bound or loosed in heaven’ [Matt. 16:18–19]. . . . Upon you, he says, I will build my Church; and I will give to *you *the keys, not to the Church; and whatever *you *shall have bound or *you *shall have loosed, not what they shall have bound or they shall have loosed” (Modesty 21:9–10 [A.D. 220]).

**Letter of Clement to James **

“Be it known to you, my lord, that Simon [Peter], who, for the sake of the true faith, and the most sure foundation of his doctrine, was set apart to be the foundation of the Church, and for this end was, by Jesus himself, with his truthful mouth, named Peter, the first-fruits of our Lord, the first of the apostles; to whom first the Father revealed the Son; whom the Christ, with good reason, blessed; the called, and elect” (Letter of Clement to James 2 [A.D. 221]).

Origen (248 A.D.)

“If we were to attend carefully to the Gospels, we should also find, in relation to those things which seem to be common to Peter . . . a great difference and a preeminence in the things [Jesus] said to Peter, compared with the second class [of apostles]. For it is no small difference that Peter received the keys not of one heaven but of more, and in order that whatsoever things he binds on earth may be bound not in one heaven but in them all, as compared with the many who bind on earth and loose on earth, so that these things are bound and loosed not in [all] the heavens, as in the case of Peter, but in one only; for they do not reach so high a stage with power as Peter to bind and loose in all the heavens” (Commentary on Matthew 13:31 [A.D. 248]).

Cyprian of Carthage (251 A.D.)

“The Lord says to Peter: ‘I say to you,’ He says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not overcome it. And to you I will give the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatever things you bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth, they shall be loosed also in heaven.’ And again He says to him after His resurrection: ‘Feed my sheep.’ On him He builds the Church, and to him He gives the command to feed the sheep; and although He assigns a like power to all the Apostles, yet He founded a single chair, and He established by His own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was; but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the Apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?” (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4 [A.D. 251]).

Cyril of Jerusalem (315-386 A.D.)

“the chiefest and foremost of the apostles” (Catechetical Lectures, 2, 19).

“In the power of the same Holy Spirit, Peter, both the chief of the apostles and the keeper of the keys of the kingdom of heaven, in the name of Christ healed Aeneas the paralytic at Lydda, which is now called Diospolis” [Acts 9:32–34] (Catechetical Lectures, 17:27 [A.D. 350]).

**Ephraim **

“[Jesus said:] Simon, my follower, I have made you the foundation of the holy Church. I betimes called you Peter, because you will support all its buildings. You are the inspector of those who will build on earth a Church for me. If they should wish to build what is false, you, the foundation, will condemn them. You are the head of the fountain from which my teaching flows; you are the chief of my disciples. Through you I will give drink to all peoples. Yours is that life-giving sweetness which I dispense. I have chosen you to be, as it were, the first-born in my institution so that, as the heir, you may be executor of my treasures. I have given you the keys of my kingdom. Behold, I have given you authority over all my treasures” (Homilies 4:1 [A.D. 351]).

 

[AmericanJosiah]

What are your thoughts after reading Acts 15 in it’s entirety?

MY thoughts (since I think you asked, lol)…

1. Catholics always seem to end the discussion of the chapter with verse 14. Curious. Because it gets really interesting after that.
2. I agree with you, it seems rather obvious that James is “in charge” here. Peter was ONE of several speakers - not the first, not the last. And there’s nothing in the text that suggests Peter’s words were given any special significance (more than, say, Paul or Barnabas), certaintly not infallible.
3. It’s interesting, because while we don’t know WHO arbitrated this issue (it only says “apostles and elders”), and we don’t know HOW they did that, we DO know what served as the rule/canon/norma normans. It was Scripture. James annouces, “this agrees with the words of the Scriptures,” (he goes on to quote some), then… “THEREFORE…” in other words, BECAUSE it is in accord with Scripture (Scripture being the rule), the judgement is that the position is correct. Clearly, the rule here was Scripture.
4. I had an interesting exchange with an Orthodox apologist some time ago who made a fasinating point from verses 22-35 that I had not considered, it seems perhaps that the ruling was not regarded as “final” until it was embraced/accepted by the people. I’m not SURE I agree this chapter is saying that, but it was an interesting and perhaps very important insight.

Thank you.

Pax

• Josiah

.

 

[Sword_Brethren]

MY thoughts (since I think you asked, lol)…

1. Catholics always seem to end the discussion of the chapter with verse 14. Curious. Because it gets really interesting after that.
2. I agree with you, it seems rather obvious that James is “in charge” here. Peter was ONE of several speakers - not the first, not the last. And there’s nothing in the text that suggests Peter’s words were given any special significance (more than, say, Paul or Barnabas), certaintly not infallible.
3. It’s interesting, because while we don’t know WHO arbitrated this issue (it only says “apostles and elders”), and we don’t know HOW they did that, we DO know what served as the rule/canon/norma normans. It was Scripture. James annouces, “this agrees with the words of the Scriptures,” (he goes on to quote some), then… “THEREFORE…” in other words, BECAUSE it is in accord with Scripture (Scripture being the rule), the judgement is that the position is correct. Clearly, the rule here was Scripture.

Thank you.

Pax

• Josiah

.

Lutheran and Orthodox both against the Catholic Church what does that mean?

 

[SingleMomMonica]

This quotes falsely attributed to St. John Chrysostom have already been addressed.

But regardless of their authenticity, they still do not have any relation to the topic at hand…specifically Acts 15 and the Council of Jerusalem - who was the one in “Authority” at the Council.

The passage and St. John Chrysostom are clear that the one in “Authority” at the council, the decision maker after hearing all sides, was St. James.

More from Chrysostom:

**John Chrysostom (347–407) **

"He was the chosen one of the apostles, the mouth of the disciples, the leader of the band; on this account also Paul went up upon a time to inquire of him rather than the others. And at the same time to show him that he must now be of good cheer, since the denial was done away, Jesus puts into his hands the chief authority among the brethren; and he brings forward not the denial, nor reproaches him with what had taken place, but says, “If you love me, preside over your brethren, and show now the warm love that you have always manifested and in which you rejoiced; and the life that you said you would lay down for me now give for my sheep” (Commentary on St. John’s Gospel, homily 88). Later in the same homily, John Chrysostom observes that Jesus “appointed” Peter “teacher of the world.”

Alternate Translation
He saith to him, “Feed my sheep”. Why does He pass over the others and speak of the sheep to Peter? He was the chosen one of the Apostles, the mouth of the disciples, the head of the choir. For this reason Paul went up to see him rather than the others. And also to show him that he must have confidence now that his denial had been purged away. He entrusts him with the rule prostasia] over the brethren. . . . If anyone should say “Why then was it James who received the See of Jerusalem?”, I should reply that He made Peter the teacher not of that see but of the whole world.
St. John Chrysostom, Homily 88 on John, 1. Cf. Origen, “In Ep. ad Rom.”, 5:10; Ephraem Syrus “Hymn. in B. Petr.” in “Bibl. Orient. Assemani”, 1:95; Leo I, “Serm. iv de natal.”, 2].

And here is a lengthy paper on Chrysostom containing many, many quotes extolling Peter:

bringyou.to/apologetics/num52.htm

 

[Randy_Carson]

MY thoughts (since I think you asked, lol)…

1. Catholics always seem to end the discussion of the chapter with verse 14. Curious. Because it gets really interesting after that.
2. I agree with you, it seems rather obvious that James is “in charge” here. Peter was ONE of several speakers - not the first, not the last. And there’s nothing in the text that suggests Peter’s words were given any special significance (more than, say, Paul or Barnabas), certaintly not infallible.
3. It’s interesting, because while we don’t know WHO arbitrated this issue (it only says “apostles and elders”), and we don’t know HOW they did that, we DO know what served as the rule/canon/norma normans. It was Scripture. James annouces, “this agrees with the words of the Scriptures,” (he goes on to quote some), then… “THEREFORE…” in other words, BECAUSE it is in accord with Scripture (Scripture being the rule), the judgement is that the position is correct. Clearly, the rule here was Scripture.

Really? Could you quote the passage(s) from the OT that authorize(s) the Church to dispense with circumcision? Thanks.