Pet Peeve...A comment of Tim Staples

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I am finally catching up. If someone agrees with me, they are right. If they do not, they are wrong.

I would love a source for valid, historical quotes and works by the Church Fathers. I would think that if there were THAT many forgeries floating around, someone would have compiled the accurate ones into one resource
 
James and his followers were speaking for themselves? How did you get that? The we? It appears that James **and **Peter use that terminology (“we”). How did you reach that conclusion because the Bonocore quote certainly does not.
READ the text (Acts 15:10). Who was he referring to? In verse 1, it says:
Some who had come down from Judea were instructing the brothers, "Unless you are circumcised according to the Mosaic practice, you cannot be saved."
These were people from James’ diocese. These are the ones who started the problem in the first place.

Peter says to them:
"Why, then, are you now putting God to the test by placing on the shoulders of the disciples a yoke that neither our ancestors nor we have been able to bear?"

When he says, “We”, he is not including himself in their number per se - he is speaking of the Jews as a whole - “…that neither our ancestors nor we have been able to bear”.
 
But James says that they did not send people our or approve it Elvis. How does one ignore that when they try to tie James to this group??
Since we have heard that some of our number (who went out) without any mandate from us have upset you with their teachings and disturbed your peace of mind,
And is anyone going to deal with the fact that what Peter says never gets sent to the churches, only what James decided?
 
But James says that they did not send people our or approve it Elvis. How does one ignore that when they try to tie James to this group??
I never said he did approve it. I said that they were from HIS diocese - Judea. James may not have sent them but was taking responsibility for them because they were from his region.
And is anyone going to deal with the fact that what Peter says never gets sent to the churches, only what James decided?
I’m not really sure what you mean here. Can you re-word the sentence?
 
And is anyone going to deal with the fact that what Peter says never gets sent to the churches, only what James decided?
When I read the passage, what gets sent to the churches is a letter expressing the agreed decision of the apostles and elders, including both Peter and James (vv. 22-29). The Council of Jerusalem would be problematic from a Catholic perspective only if Peter had not accepted its decision. This is not the case at Jerusalem; both James’ position and the council’s decision are in agreement with what Peter previously said there and have Peter’s full support. Catholicism does not hold that Peter or his successor must preside over a council, nor even that he must be present, but that he has the authority to do so if he chooses. It’s an option he often chooses not to exercise, especially when matters can be settled at a local level. He generally prefers to practice the Catholic Church’s principle of subsidiarity: “a community of a higher order should not interfere in the internal life of a community of a lower order, depriving the latter of its functions, but rather should support it in case of need and help to coordinate its activity with the activities of the rest of society, always with a view to the common good.”

Regarding Tim Staples’ comment, I do not consider it necessary for any Catholic to agree with his perspective on Acts 15. But it might be said in Staples’ defense that all “debate” ends when Peter addresses the council (verse 7). From that point on, we hear only agreeing voices: Peter, Paul & Barnabas, and James.
 
I never said he did approve it. I said that they were from HIS diocese - Judea. James may not have sent them but was taking responsibility for them because they were from his region. ]
James speaking for himself and his followers when he said:
This what you said. If you are saying that James never believed this and was not in agreement with this group…we have nothing to argue about and we agree on that point
 
My bottom line.
The decision of the council that was sent to the churches was what James said. Peter does not answer their question about what is needed or is not needed. The larger question was circumcision. But only James decides what specifically Gentiles must do. How can Peter be in charge of this meeting when only what James states is sent to the churches as their decision?
I am not even arguing about Papal primacy or anything of the sort. It is simply the incorrect premise that Peter ran this council and made the decision. He did not.
 
The decision of the council that was sent to the churches was what James said… How can Peter be in charge of this meeting when only what James states is sent to the churches as their decision?
The letter of the council sent to the churches came from all the apostles and elders (vv. 22-29). The letter itself says it comes from “both the apostles and elders” and it uses phrases like “we have decided unanimously” and “it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us.” It is definitely not James’ decision alone, nor is it in any kind of opposition to what the other named apostles and elders (Peter, Paul, and Barnabas) said: they all agreed.
But only James decides what specifically Gentiles must do.
After the doctrinal matter is settled, it is a good thing that the local bishop suggest a discipline appropriate to his see. Even so James did not impose the discipline without the consent of the other council fathers. Indeed, the letter has “the consent of the whole church.” It’s a very good council.

Absolutely none of this is problematic for Catholics, of course.
 
This what you said. If you are saying that James never believed this and was not in agreement with this group…we have nothing to argue about and we agree on that point
I’m not saying that - he may have.
**The point is that those who were teaching this were not sent out by the twleve as a group. **
James may have agreed with this teaching or he may not have.
He states, "…we ought to stop troubling the Gentiles who turn to God…"
He is taking responsibility for those in his diocese who are making this false claim. He begins with stating that the prophets agree with what Peter said before him.

Don’t forget - it was Peter who spoke first - not James - and he stated for the first time in the New Testament that ALL are saved through grace and not the Law.
That is a definitive and authoritative statement.
 
No I’m not.

You’re being contrary because you are unable to bring to this thread a single early Church Father that contradicts St. John Chrysostom’s teaching that at the council of Jerusalem St. James had the highest authority.

Since you are unable to respond to this thread with a defense of your position on Acts 15, you are throwing mud to try to deflect your failure to bring anything pertinant to this discussion…reminds me of how JW’s operate. :hmmm: back at ya!

Tick…tick…tick 😉
John Cassian does not specifically comment on the Jerusalem Council, but does quote James.
JOHN CASSIAN
SEVEN BOOKS ON THE INCARNATION OF THE LORD, AGAINST NESTORIUS.
CHAPTER V: From the gifts of Divine grace which we receive through Christ
he infers that He is truly God.
…We read in the Acts of the Apostles that the Apostle
James(1) thus refuted those who thought that when they received the gospel
they ought still to bear the yoke of the old Law: “Why,” said he, “do ye
tempt God, to put a yoke upon the necks of the disciples which neither our
fathers nor we have been able to bear. But by the grace of our Lord Jesus
Christ we believe to be saved in like manner as they also.”
John does not mention Peter in this context. He is more concerned with proving the doctrine of Theotokos. But check out these quotes from him on Peter a little later.
CHAPTER XII: He proves from the renowned confession of the blessed Peter
that Christ is God.
BUT if you prefer the authority of a greater person (although you ought
not to slight the authority of any one of either sex, on whom the
confession of the mystery confers weight–for whatever may be a person’s
condition, or however humble his position, yet the value of his faith is
not thereby diminished) let us interrogate no beginner or untaught
schoolboy, nor a woman whose faith might perhaps appear to be but
rudimentary; but that greatest of disciples among disciples, and of
teachers among teachers, who presided and ruled over the Roman Church, and
held the chief place(2) in the priesthood as he did in the faith. Tell us
then, tell us, we pray, O Peter, thou chief of Apostles, tell us how the
Churches ought to believe in God. For it is right that you should teach us,
as you were taught by the Lord, and that you should open to us the gate, of
which you received the key. Shut out all those who try to overthrow the
heavenly house: and those who are endeavouring to enter by secret holes and
unlawful approaches: as it is clear that none can enter the gate of the
kingdom save one to whom the key bestowed on the Churches is revealed by
you. Tell us then how we ought to believe in Jesus Christ and to confess
our common Lord. You will surely reply without hesitation: “Why do you
consult me as to the way in which the Lord should be confessed, when you
have before you my own confession of Him? Read the gospel, and you will not
want me myself, when you have got my confession. Nay, you have got me
myself when you have my confession; for though I have no weight apart from
my confession, yet the actual confession adds weight to my person.” Tell us
then, O Evangelist, tell us the confession: tell us the faith of the chief
Apostle: did he confess that Jesus was only a man, or God? did he say that
there was nothing but flesh in Him, or did he proclaim Him the Son of God?
When then the Lord Jesus Christ asked whom the disciples believed and
confessed Him to be, Peter, the first of the Apostles, replied-- one in the
name of all–for the answer of one was to the same effect as the faith of
them all. But it was fitting that he should first give the answer, that the
order of the answer might correspond to the degree of honour: and that he
might outstrip them in confession, as he outstripped them in age. What then
does he say? “Thou art,” he says, “the Christ the Son of the living
God.”(1) I am obliged, you heretic, to make use of a plain and simple
question to confute you. Tell me, I pray, who was He, to whom Peter gave
that answer? You cannot deny that it was the Christ. I ask then, what do
you call Christ? man or God? Man certainly without any doubt: for hence
springs the whole of your heresy, because you deny that Christ is the Son
of God. And so too you say that Mary is Christotocos, but not Theotocos,
because she was the mother of Christ, not of God. Therefore you maintain,
that Christ is only a man, and not God, and so that He is the Son of man
not of God. What then does Peter reply to this? “Thou art,” he says, “the
Christ, the Son of the living God.” That Christ whom you declare to be only
the Son of man, he testifies to be the Son of God. Whom would you like us
to believe? you or Peter? I imagine that you are not so shameless as to
venture to prefer your own opinion to that of the first of the Apostles.
And yet what is there that you would not venture on? or how can you help
scorning the Apostle, if you can deny God? “Thou art then,” he says, “the
Christ, the Son of the living God.” Is there anything puzzling or obscure
in this? It is nothing but a plain and open confession: he proclaims Christ
to be the Son of God. Perhaps you will deny that the words were spoken: but
the Evangelist testifies that they were. Or do you say that the Apostle
told a lie? But it is an awful lie to accuse an Apostle of lying. Or
perhaps you will maintain that the words were spoken of some other Christ?
But this is a novel kind of monstrous fabrication. What then is left for
you? One thing indeed; viz., that since what is written is read, and what
is read is true, you should finally be driven by force and compulsion (as
you cannot assert its falsehood) to desist from impugning its truth.
Continued
 
BUT if you prefer the authority of a greater person (although you ought
not to slight the authority of any one of either sex, on whom the
confession of the mystery confers weight–for whatever may be a person’s
condition, or however humble his position, yet the value of his faith is
not thereby diminished) let us interrogate no beginner or untaught
schoolboy, nor a woman whose faith might perhaps appear to be but
rudimentary; but that greatest of disciples among disciples, and of
teachers among teachers, who presided and ruled over the Roman Church, and
held the chief place(2) in the priesthood as he did in the faith. Tell us
then, tell us, we pray, O Peter, thou chief of Apostles, tell us how the
Churches ought to believe in God. For it is right that you should teach us,
as you were taught by the Lord, and that you should open to us the gate, of
which you received the key. Shut out all those who try to overthrow the
heavenly house: and those who are endeavouring to enter by secret holes and
unlawful approaches: as it is clear that none can enter the gate of the
kingdom save one to whom the key bestowed on the Churches is revealed by
you. Tell us then how we ought to believe in Jesus Christ and to confess
our common Lord. You will surely reply without hesitation: “Why do you
consult me as to the way in which the Lord should be confessed, when you
have before you my own confession of Him? Read the gospel, and you will not
want me myself, when you have got my confession. Nay, you have got me
myself when you have my confession; for though I have no weight apart from
my confession, yet the actual confession adds weight to my person.” Tell us
then, O Evangelist, tell us the confession: tell us the faith of the chief
Apostle: did he confess that Jesus was only a man, or God? did he say that
there was nothing but flesh in Him, or did he proclaim Him the Son of God?
When then the Lord Jesus Christ asked whom the disciples believed and
confessed Him to be, Peter, the first of the Apostles, replied-- one in the
name of all–for the answer of one was to the same effect as the faith of
them all. But it was fitting that he should first give the answer, that the
order of the answer might correspond to the degree of honour: and that he
might outstrip them in confession, as he outstripped them in age. What then
does he say? “Thou art,” he says, “the Christ the Son of the living
God.”(1) I am obliged, you heretic, to make use of a plain and simple
question to confute you. Tell me, I pray, who was He, to whom Peter gave
that answer? You cannot deny that it was the Christ…
CHAPTER XIII: The confession of the blessed Peter receives a testimony to
its truth from Christ Himself.
BUT still, as I have made use of the testimony of the chief Apostle, in
which he openly confessed the Lord Jesus Christ as God, let us see how He
whom he confessed approved of his confession; for of far more value than
the Apostle’s words is the fact that God Himself commended his utterance.
When then the Apostle said: “Thou art the Christ the Son of the living
God,” what was the answer of our Lord and Saviour? “Blessed art thou,” said
He, “Simon Barjonah, for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee but
the Spirit of My Father which is in heaven.” If you do not like to use the
testimony of the Apostle use that of God. For by commending what was said
God added His own authority to the Apostle’s utterance, so that although
the utterance came from the lips of the Apostle, yet God who approved of it
made it His own. “Blessed art thou,” said He, “Simon Barjonah, for flesh
and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but the Spirit of My Father which
is in heaven.” Thus in the words of the Apostle you have the testimony of
the Holy Spirit and of the Son who was present and of God the Father. What
more can you want, or what comes up to this? The Son commended: the Father
was present: the Holy Ghost revealed. The utterance of the Apostle thus
gives the testimony of the entire Godhead: for this utterance must
necessarily have the authority of Him from whose prompting it proceeds.
“Blessed then art thou,” said He, “Simon Barjonah, for flesh and blood hath
not revealed it unto thee, but the Spirit of My Father which is in heaven.”
If then flesh and blood did not reveal this to Peter or inspire him, you
must at last see who inspires you. If the Spirit of God taught him who
confessed that Christ was God, you see how you are taught by the spirit of
the devil if you can deny it.
Continued
 
CHAPTER XIV: How the confession of the blessed Peter is the faith of the
whole Church.
BUT what are the other words which follow that saying of the Lord’s,
with which He commends Peter? “And I,” said He, “say unto thee, that thou
art Peter and upon this rock I will build My Church.” Do you see how the
saying of Peter is the faith of the Church? He then must of course be
outside the Church, who does not hold the faith of the Church. “And to
thee,” saith the Lord, “I will give the keys of the kingdom of heaven.”
This faith deserved heaven: this faith received the keys of the heavenly
kingdom. See what awaits you. You cannot enter the gate to which this key
belongs, if you have denied the faith of this key. “And the gate,” He adds,
“of hell shall not prevail against thee.” The gates of hell are the belief
or rather the misbelief of heretics. For widely as hell is separated from
heaven, so widely is he who denies from him who confessed that Christ is
God. “Whatsoever,” He proceeds, “thou shalt bind on earth, shalt be bound
in heaven, and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, shalt be loosed also
in heaven.” The perfect faith of the Apostle somehow is given the power of
Deity, that what it should bind or loose on earth, might be bound or loosed
in heaven. For you then, who come against the Apostle’s faith, as you see
that already you are bound on earth, it only remains that you should know
that you are bound also in heaven. .
But you are correct. There are not many church fathers who quote the Jerusalem council, most likely because the issue of Judaizers was resolved early in the second century. Gentile Christians quickly outnumbered Jewish Christians, thanks to the help of Paul, and the other apostles. Mostly the Church fathers were concerned with gnostics, schismatics, Heretics, etc… Judaizers were not high on their priority, and so there wasn’t much call to quote from this council.

God bless,
Ut
 
And is anyone going to deal with the fact that what Peter says never gets sent to the churches, only what James decided?
Peter’s dogmatic decision was that the Gentiles did not have to be circumcised. James’s letter was only about not eating certain foods so as not to offend the Jewish Christians.
We know that Peter’s teaching was sent as well as James’ letter.
Read Acts 15:30-31. It says that when the decree was read at Antioch, “they rejoiced at the exhortation”. Were they rejoicing because they could not eat certain foods or because they did not have to be circumcised? As an adult male, I can guarantee you that they were celebrating the fact they they did not have to go under the knife and be circumcised.
 
As an adult male, I can guarantee you that they were celebrating the fact they they did not have to go under the knife and be circumcised.
LOL. 😃

But seriously, the council’s final decision regarding both doctrine (on which Peter focused) and discipline (on which James focused) is the decision of the entire council. The text explicitly says all the apostles and elders there present agreed. This text poses no problem for either Catholic or Orthodox theology, as far as I can tell.
 
The letter of the council sent to the churches came from all the apostles and elders (vv. 22-29). The letter itself says it comes from “both the apostles and elders” and it uses phrases like “we have decided unanimously” and “it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us.” It is definitely not James’ decision alone, nor is it in any kind of opposition to what the other named apostles and elders (Peter, Paul, and Barnabas) said: they all agreed.

After the doctrinal matter is settled, it is a good thing that the local bishop suggest a discipline appropriate to his see. Even so James did not impose the discipline without the consent of the other council fathers. Indeed, the letter has “the consent of the whole church.” It’s a very good council.

Absolutely none of this is problematic for Catholics, of course.
In my arguing against Peter running this council, I believed I overstated my case in terms of James and the role of the council as a whole. Well said. I accept that correction
 
Peter’s dogmatic decision was that the Gentiles did not have to be circumcised. James’s letter was only about not eating certain foods so as not to offend the Jewish Christians.
We know that Peter’s teaching was sent as well as James’ letter.
Read Acts 15:30-31. It says that when the decree was read at Antioch, “they rejoiced at the exhortation”. Were they rejoicing because they could not eat certain foods or because they did not have to be circumcised? As an adult male, I can guarantee you that they were celebrating the fact they they did not have to go under the knife and be circumcised.
Speculative. The passages clearly states what was sent
This is the letter delivered by them: “The apostles and the presbyters, your brothers, to the brothers in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia of Gentile origin: greetings.
24
Since we have heard that some of our number (who went out) without any mandate from us have upset you with their teachings and disturbed your peace of mind,
25
we have with one accord decided to choose representatives and to send them to you along with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26
who have dedicated their lives to the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27
So we are sending Judas and Silas who will also convey this same message by word of mouth:
28
‘It is the decision of the holy Spirit and of us not to place on you any burden beyond these necessities,
29
namely, to abstain from meat sacrificed to idols, from blood, from meats of strangled animals, and from unlawful marriage. If you keep free of these, you will be doing what is right. Farewell.’”
 
I’m not saying that - he may have.
**The point is that those who were teaching this were not **sent out by the twleve as a group.
James may have agreed with this teaching or he may not have.
He states, "…we ought to stop troubling the Gentiles who turn to God…"
He is taking responsibility for those in his diocese who are making this false claim. He begins with stating that the prophets agree with what Peter said before him.

Don’t forget - it was Peter who spoke first - not James - and he stated for the first time in the New Testament that ALL are saved through grace and not the Law.
That is a definitive and authoritative statement.
Let me ask you a question Elvis. What did Peter say exactly in Acts 15 that he had not said before in Acts 10?

Second thing. Of course he said we. When a person in charge, is addressing a group about the organization they lead, they will use the word we even if it refers to some of the people. Saying some of the people is divisive.

example, if I use a staff meeting to remind people to call parents who do not, I am not going to say"Donna and Bob you need to call parents". I am going to say, “at this school, we call parents. We need to remember to do that”.
Wouldnt you say it that way?
 
I don’t understand how Acts 15 could possibly undermine Peter’s authority in the Church regardless of who “presided” at the “council” at Jerusalem.

If my local parish has a doctrinal dispute about the issue of converting unbelievers, we can appoint two people to travel to see the bishop of my diocese. If he says “Well, the pope as successor to Peter, has said that we may do X and Y, and therefore it is my judgment that we should do X and Y,” then he is not replacing the authority of the pope when making his decision–he is appealing to it.

The situation in Acts 15 seems much the same. Even if James is the one “making the decision,” if you will, his decision is based upon the words of Peter. What’s the rub, here? Bishops today have authority in their own dioceses, and that does not abrogate the authority of the bishop of Rome-the successor of Peter–and vice versa.

If you take a look at the last part of the 15th chapter of Acts, it seems plain that when the letter or decree of the “council” is issued, it is from all the apostles and elders, together with the whole Church. Again, what’s the rub here? James said “Peter said we oughta do it this way so my judgment is that we should do it this way” and the rest of the Church clearly thought he was right in appealing to Peter’s authority, because no further discussion was needed, and the whole Church issued a letter that we oughta do it this way.
 
I don’t understand how Acts 15 could possibly undermine Peter’s authority in the Church regardless of who “presided” at the “council” at Jerusalem.
It doesn’t. As I said before, the Council of Jerusalem would be problematic from a Catholic perspective only if Peter had not accepted its decision. This is not the case at Jerusalem; both James’ position and the council’s decision are in agreement with what Peter previously said there and have Peter’s full support. And Catholicism does not hold that Peter or his successor must preside over a council, nor even that he must be present at all.
 
Let me ask you a question Elvis. What did Peter say exactly in Acts 15 that he had not said before in Acts 10?
**Peter doesn’t mention in Acts 10 that we are saved by grace alone.
He DOES in ****Acts 15 - and is the first one to do so. **
James agrees.
Second thing. Of course he said we. When a person in charge, is addressing a group about the organization they lead, they will use the word we even if it refers to some of the people. Saying some of the people is divisive.

example, if I use a staff meeting to remind people to call parents who do not, I am not going to say"Donna and Bob you need to call parents". I am going to say, “at this school, we call parents. We need to remember to do that”.
Wouldnt you say it that way?
HUH?
I don’t understand what you’re trying to get at.
My point was that James is taking responsibility for the false teachings coming out of his diocese - his Bshopric.
 
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