Pet peeve, literally a peeve about pets!

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I don’t know, I tend more to take my dog to the vet so that he won’t spread rabies to people.Ditto for the fleas and we brush his hair so we won’t be bothered by it shed all over the house. I bet my dog could care less.
I value my dog as a pet & a pretty cool animal, but I about gag when I encounter over-the-top,goopy,sentimental, quasi-theology stuff like the “Rainbow Bridge” baloney where you’re supposed to meet your pets “on the other side.”(Check the thread about meeting your pets in heaven.) Please…:rolleyes:
in post 422 you attributed this bolded passage to me, this passage orginially came from 403 by cracker mom
Yup.I’m the guilty party…🙂
 
Incidentally, if there is anyone who is interested in reading more about animal emotions and behaviour, here is an excellent article, in which you’ll find a much more in-depth discussion of some points I raised in my previous post:

messybeast.com/emoticat.html

Happy reading! 🤓
 
I am too am very puzzled at those who who are not prepared to give animals basic rights. There seems to me to be no reason not to. If you say they should not have basic rights then you are giving people carte blanche (even if you do not intend to) to maltreat animals.
i dont give my roomba rights, its only a robot, i don’t give animals rights, because they are meat bots. i have yet to see any evidence that animals are more than meatbots, chemically programmed and deterministically driven.
Also referring to animals as meatbots encourages disrepect for animals
how can you have disrespect for a robot? or a meatbot?, it is an object.
okay some people may deny that animals have emotions but even if they don’t have then it is clear they feel pain, anxiety, fear.
thats no different than my roombas error light, it gives a code, and tells me whats wrong.

code such and such, is ‘anxiety’, some other code is ‘fear’ or ‘pain’

thats not that special.
I may kick my roomba or other household appliance but all I am likely to do is hurt myself, kick a meatbot and it as well as me is likely to feel pain.
kick a predator drone, and youll likely feel some pain.

teeth dont make for equality.
 
objective evidence is is hardly an unrealistic standard of evidence, if you have none. then you simply cant support your position as anything more than a personally held opinion.

and since you had to look up specific logical fallacies, and then i had to correct your understanding, remember ‘coaching’?

i havent misapplyed anything

you just lack evidence, and i wont let you off the hook gracefully as you decided to treat me badly.
I get the impression that you couldn’t let anyone off the hook ‘gracefully’ if they dared to disagree with you. You might have noticed that you yourself have been rather less than polite most of the time.
science already says that we are chemically driven meatbots ourselves. i dont see what makes you think that science will ever be in favor of your side.
but now i know that you know science doesn’t yet support your side.
Doesn’t yet prove conclusively. Ample support, though.
and yet it seems from the evidence of civilisation, art, literature, etc that we are demostrably superior.
You like to conveniently appropriate the argument for human sophistication when it suits your purposes, and dismiss it when it does not. If we are within our rights to mistreat other animals, then by your ‘superiority-through-sophistication’ account, we can also mistreat human babies, the mentally disabled, and anyone, really, who displays no artistic or creative talents. Somehow I doubt you would advocate that approach…
unless they happen to those people you cant see and have previously refered to as ‘statistics’
people you cant see are little more than statistics, remember? their suffering doesn’t really count. does it?
To me, charity begins at home. As I explained previously, humans are biologically hard-wired to care most about those closest to them in their family circle and their immediate community. Everyone outside that circle comes in for consideration only when the needs of those closest have been met. This is a completely practical and efficient approach, since it stands to reason that you can actually do the most to actively support those with whom you share your daily life, and those in your immediate vicinity. The animals that I don’t see are statistics as well, and they get consideration only after I have cared for my animals.
 
i dont give my roomba rights, its only a robot, i don’t give animals rights, because they are meat bots. i have yet to see any evidence that animals are more than meatbots, chemically programmed and deterministically driven.

how can you have disrespect for a robot? or a meatbot?, it is an object.

thats no different than my roombas error light, it gives a code, and tells me whats wrong.

code such and such, is ‘anxiety’, some other code is ‘fear’ or ‘pain’

thats not that special.

kick a predator drone, and youll likely feel some pain.

teeth dont make for equality.
You know, in some ways I actually do feel sorry for you. It seems to me that your ability to relate to the world around you and the creatures within it is sadly limited, if you can’t appreciate the difference between a dog or cat and a robot vacuum cleaner.
 
As I have previously stated on this thread, one of the most basic values that infoms many ethical systems is respect for life. Some prefer to limit this respect to humans alone, others find that it is more appropriate to apply it to all forms of life, particularly sentient life.
i assume this means you are anti-abortion, and anti death penalty?
As I have also mentioned in previous posts, animals are in fact sentient.
post evidence
Whether they are capable of self-awareness to the same extent as humans is open to debate, but self-awareness is not necessary to the ability to suffer. As the utilitarian ethicist Jeremy Bentham stated, “The question is not ‘Can they reason?’ nor ‘Can they talk?’ but ‘Can they suffer?’”
not if they are chemically programmed meatbots. my roomba cant be said to suffer, even when he cracks his case getting stepped on

and why should suffering be the satndard anyway?
Although I don’t profess to be a utilitarian, I think this is a useful distinction to bear in mind. Laboratory experiments have shown remarkable similarities in the electrical signals and chemical responses occurring in the brains of both humans and other animals. The same structures in the brains of animals respond in the same way as those of humans to certain stimuli. Biochemical changes in the brain accompany emotions of any sort. Dopamine, the ‘feel-good’ hormone, and oxytocin, the ‘bonding’ hormone, are released in both human and animal brains in the same kinds of situations. Both human and other animal brains have a structure called the amygdala, which is closely linked to fear. Fear is one of the most primitive emotions, and it certainly isn’t exclusive to humans. In fact, experiments upon rats have shown the extensive and permanent changes in brain chemistry that can be brought about by prolonged experience of terror. It is possible to die from an excess of fear, as some rats did indeed die after lengthy periods of induced terror. I think it would be hard to argue that such experimental data come from a source that is biased in favour of the animals.
not for me, the things you speak of are just bio-mechanical systems. you assume they have emotions, when all you can really say is these things look similar.

similarity, does not equal any degree of equality
The accusation of anthropomorphism is dismissible - it is as much a sign of inherent bias as any tendency to support animal rights.
yeah except for those few millenia of thought disposing of the practice of anthropomorphism, you know the ancient greeks like plato, aristotle, etc
The accusation itself often comes from biased sources, such as scientists who wish to continue conducting medical research on animals, or those who make a living from intensive farming practices, or just those who are afraid that comparison with animals will compromise their own feelings of superiority.
none of those biases fit me, so maybe i just think its an illogical projection of emotion onto the meatbots.
It comes from a deeply-held desire to maintain some sense of distance between humans and other animals, a distance that is largely artificial when it comes to emotional and behavioural responses.
evidence of this please.
Humans tend to rationalise their emotions and imagine they are more than just a response to chemical changes in the brain. There is no aspect of human behaviour that cannot be linked back to the fundamentals of our animal nature. The differences between us and other animals are of degree, not kind.
really, so when i act outside my programming, completely opposite to it, such as suicide, etc then thats been evolutionarily programmed? funny, but that would be a evolutionary self defeating program. doesnt make much sense does it?

you need some evidence for that kind of blanket statement.
None of the relative sophistication of humans makes any difference when it comes to basic rights, especially when you consider that not all humans exhibit the same level of sophistication. Respect for life is just that - respect for all life. Every sentient creature - every creature with the ability to experience pain, pleasure and fear - is entitled to humane treatment. This means that if either humans or animals are suffering (unless that suffering is absolutely necessary for reasons consistent with a respect for life), it is always right to help them.
no its not, it violates the golden rule.

do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

as you would want the food given to you, instead of the dog, in a starvation situation,

then you should also treat others that way

what your talking about violates the most basic test of ethics, the golden rule

and you have yet to show that animals are anything more than chemically programmed meatbots. if you cant, then please donate to my new charity for ‘fred roomba’ his error systems are just all lit, up and he really needs your help!🙂
 
I get the impression that you couldn’t let anyone off the hook ‘gracefully’ if they dared to disagree with you. You might have noticed that you yourself have been rather less than polite most of the time.
i didn’t start it.
Doesn’t yet prove conclusively. Ample support, though.
what support?, your assumptions that affectivity equals emotions?
You like to conveniently appropriate the argument for human sophistication when it suits your purposes, and dismiss it when it does not. If we are within our rights to mistreat other animals, then by your ‘superiority-through-sophistication’ account, we can also mistreat human babies, the mentally disabled, and anyone, really, who displays no artistic or creative talents. Somehow I doubt you would advocate that approach…
no, because my standard is humanity, any human is more important than an animal.

the sophistication arguemnt is about the equality of animals too humans
To me, charity begins at home. As I explained previously, humans are biologically hard-wired to care most about those closest to them in their family circle and their immediate community. Everyone outside that circle comes in for consideration only when the needs of those closest have been met. This is a completely practical and efficient approach, since it stands to reason that you can actually do the most to actively support those with whom you share your daily life, and those in your immediate vicinity. The animals that I don’t see are statistics as well, and they get consideration only after I have cared for my animals.
and its still a violation of the golden rule.
 
You know, in some ways I actually do feel sorry for you. It seems to me that your ability to relate to the world around you and the creatures within it is sadly limited, if you can’t appreciate the difference between a dog or cat and a robot vacuum cleaner.
its a useful tool to point out that there ***is no practical difference ***between a dog or a cat or a robot vacuum cleaner.
 
and why should suffering be the satndard anyway?
Why not? Do you like to suffer?
yeah except for those few millenia of thought disposing of the practice of anthropomorphism, you know the ancient greeks like plato, aristotle, etc
As I’ve said before, anthropomorphism was first applied to gods, not animals. Nor is anthropomorphism sufficient to invalidate the large and growing body of evidence that supports the existence of animal emotions…
none of those biases fit me, so maybe i just think its an illogical projection of emotion onto the meatbots.
…unless you are determined to maintain your distance. You seem desperate to deny any possibility that animals can suffer and can experience basic emotions. What’s with that? I know your belief in God is not able to be completely put down to logic, after all (first cause doesn’t automatically equate with the God of the Bible) - you are just rationalising your pre-existing faith. So why the reluctance to admit the fundamental kinship between humans and other animals? You tacitly admit that you are an imperfect observer of animals, so your own observations are inadequate to explain such a denial.
really, so when i act outside my programming, completely opposite to it, such as suicide, etc then thats been evolutionarily programmed?
Or you could put it down to a program malfunction.
you need some evidence for that kind of blanket statement.
Why? Your blanket statements are usually unaccompanied.
no its not, it violates the golden rule.
do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
I assume other creatures don’t want to suffer. I treat them accordingly. I assume other humans don’t want to suffer, and do my best to treat them accordingly. No difference there, except that I might not always understand exactly what my pets are communicating. Hey, sometimes I don’t even understand what other people want, since lots of people can be poor communicators. So, where’s this ‘violation’ you speak of?
 
its a useful tool to point out that there ***is no practical difference ***between a dog or a cat or a robot vacuum cleaner.
Depends upon how you see them and how you want to relate to them, I suppose. That and the fact that your Roomba doesn’t metabolise, respirate, grow, reproduce - you know, the things that characterise living organisms…
 

Dogs hitched to Desotos? Lost count.

The contract between a pet and its owner is indeed spiritually binding. Not necessary to say three Hail Marys before feeding; it’s more a good-faith agreement that when we include a pet into our lives we assume responsibility for its care and nurturance. Spirituality is not limited to Church teaching.

One organization I support is Ahimsa House in Georgia, which is a facility that houses primarily women who are attempting to escape domestically violent situations but are unwilling to leave because they are afraid if they leave their pets behind the abuser will harm thtese pets. There is no reason to stay in a hateful, physically threatening environment simply because a battered person’s shelter will not accept pets. Ahimsa House does. I would like to see one of these facilities in every city in the United States.
For info, go to www.ahimsahouse.org

Limerick
Then, the animal shelter you provide a link for doesn’t actually provide physical shelter for abused women, only animals? If so, doesn’t this go back to the original intention of this thread which is about diverting funds to animals which could be used for aiding human beings? Unless women’s shelters are over-funded(which surely is not true where we live), it wouldn’t seem a very Christian stewardship of funds to choose critters’ welfare over womens’ & chilldren’s.But perhaps both are provided at the same facility?
 
and you have yet to show that animals are anything more than chemically programmed meatbots. if you cant, then please donate to my new charity for ‘fred roomba’ his error systems are just all lit, up and he really needs your help!🙂
Has something happened to you recently that has damaged your self-esteem? Because, in all honesty, I think you need to drop the pretence of desiring a rational discussion of why people might choose to support animal charities as well as human ones. It has become abundantly clear that you began this thread with an idea firmly planted in your head, and that you had no intention of acknowledging any alternative viewpoints. Several others have made serious attempts to argue, but you have consistently (and often rudely) refused to engage with other’s ideas. I can only assume that you are trying to make yourself feel superior to others by trying to play the moral card. Other people have different ethics and different worldviews to your own. If you are unwilling to enter into discussion of this, just accept it and get on with your own life.
 
Then, the animal shelter you provide a link for doesn’t actually provide physical shelter for abused women, only animals? If so, doesn’t this go back to the original intention of this thread which is about diverting funds to animals which could be used for aiding human beings? Unless women’s shelters are over-funded(which surely is not true where we live), it wouldn’t seem a very Christian stewardship of funds to choose critters’ welfare over womens’ & chilldren’s.But perhaps both are provided at the same facility?
So…you are in the position to know where my dollars and those of the other members here go? I think not. Unless you are privy to where I spend my hard earned dollars…I have every right under the sun to spend them as I see fit. My conscience is clear, as I support 2 churches…charities…animal and human…so I have to ask Cracker Mom…can you say the same…or is it just all “talk”: with you? Hmmmm?
 
Then, the animal shelter you provide a link for doesn’t actually provide physical shelter for abused women, only animals? If so, doesn’t this go back to the original intention of this thread which is about diverting funds to animals which could be used for aiding human beings? Unless women’s shelters are over-funded(which surely is not true where we live), it wouldn’t seem a very Christian stewardship of funds to choose critters’ welfare over womens’ & chilldren’s.But perhaps both are provided at the same facility?
I think the point is that the shelter provides crisis accommodation for pets, thereby allowing abused women to leave their abusers and take their pets to a safe place as well. As Limerick stated, some abused women worry about what will happen to their pets if they leave them with the abuser, and as a result, they may not leave themselves - since it seems most crisis shelters refuse to take in pets.

The point is that both humans and animals benefit from the existence of shelters such as this one. I don’t understand how these things are thought to be mutually exclusive.
 
So…you are in the position to know where my dollars and those of the other members here go? I think not. Unless you are privy to where I spend my hard earned dollars…I have every right under the sun to spend them as I see fit. My conscience is clear, as I support 2 churches…charities…animal and human…so I have to ask Cracker Mom…can you say the same…or is it just all “talk”: with you? Hmmmm?
I don’t contribute any dollars to animal charities because I have no surplus after donating to human charities.And until human charities have surplus funding, I couldn’t divert funds to animals in good conscience.
It certainly is a free country & you can contribute as you wish.
 
Why not? Do you like to suffer?
because it allows you to ignore humans, you know those staistics?
As I’ve said before, anthropomorphism was first applied to gods, not animals. Nor is anthropomorphism sufficient to invalidate the large and growing body of evidence that supports the existence of animal emotions…
i wouldn’t use a wiki for my entire understanding of a subjest, as you seem to do with anthro and weve already disposed of your ‘evidence’ of animal emotions, as nothing more than assumption based om similarity.
…unless you are determined to maintain your distance. You seem desperate to deny any possibility that animals can suffer and can experience basic emotions. What’s with that?
because you have no evidence, but you are supporting a fallacy a couple thousand years old. based on your opinion

i like evidence.

thats whats up.
I know your belief in God is not able to be completely put down to logic, after all (first cause doesn’t automatically equate with the God of the Bible)
sure does, thats the convergent messianic prophecy, its mathematically precise. if you care to discuss metaphysics take it to the philo thread.
  • you are just rationalising your pre-existing faith
.

i started as a teenage atheist, so that would be a little hard.
So why the reluctance to admit the fundamental kinship between humans and other animals?
because no such relationship exists, it is entirely in your mind, if its not, you would hhave evidence.
You tacitly admit that you are an imperfect observer of animals, so your own observations are inadequate to explain such a denial.
when did i tacitly admit that?
Or you could put it down to a program malfunction.
then we should see it in animals, but we dont, so it doesn’t seem like programming.
Why? Your blanket statements are usually unaccompanied.
i see you didn’t post evidence for that.
I assume other creatures don’t want to suffer. I treat them accordingly. I assume other humans don’t want to suffer, and do my best to treat them accordingly. No difference there, except that I might not always understand exactly what my pets are communicating. Hey, sometimes I don’t even understand what other people want, since lots of people can be poor communicators. So, where’s this ‘violation’ you speak of?
because if you were in the same starvation position as other people, you wouldn’t want them to give food to a stray while you starved. we already went over this.

your not doing to others as you would wish them to do to you.
 
Depends upon how you see them and how you want to relate to them, I suppose. That and the fact that your Roomba doesn’t metabolise, respirate, grow, reproduce - you know, the things that characterise living organisms…
how does the chemistry matter?

only things with mammalian chemistry can suffer?
 
Has something happened to you recently that has damaged your self-esteem?
yes, oh, yes. my poor self esteem,

thats why you dont have any evidence, my poor damaged self esteem stole it.
Because, in all honesty, I think you need to drop the pretence of desiring a rational discussion of why people might choose to support animal charities as well as human ones. It has become abundantly clear that you began this thread with an idea firmly planted in your head, and that you had no intention of acknowledging any alternative viewpoints.
the alternative, is the immorailty i put in the OP
Several others have made serious attempts to argue, but you have consistently (and often rudely) refused to engage with other’s ideas.
if they offer evidence i will be happy to examine it.
I can only assume that you are trying to make yourself feel superior to others by trying to play the moral card.
i feel superior because i have evidence. 🙂
Other people have different ethics and different worldviews to your own. If you are unwilling to enter into discussion of this, just accept it and get on with your own life.
yes, as i said on this issue, the alternatives to a p-eoiple first charitable strategy is immoral, i agree you have an amoral “people are statistics” worldview.

thats not got a thing to do with me.
 
Certainly true enough.

For those who are interested in what Ahimsa House offers, please visit :

www.ahimsahouse.org It is not just for pets.

You obviously have access to a computer, Cracker Mom - why not check it out?

Limerick
I did & was surprised to see it doesn’t appear to offer shelter to women.Unless I’m misreading the info. provided.🤷
 
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