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Squishy
Guest
So does that mean that if you did not believe that your Selfless actions would get you into heaven you would be an immoral person ?
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Cristiano
Guest
Selfless actions or a dead faith will not get me into heaven. Only my living faith in God through His mercy can get me to heaven. My purpose is to do God’s will, that is all.
If God did not exist then there would be no reason for morality, to me it would be idiotic to constrain to myself to do some “good”. What would “good” be without a God? What would be the purpose of “good” without a God? But this is the topic for a completely different thread in the philosophy section.
BTW I am not saying that you are an idiot for doing “good” even if it is for utilitarian reasons. I am glad that you have moral values, and overall I think that probably you are a good person trying to understand more.
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AngelAshley
Guest
So, by that logic, anyone who has the ability to pay the heating bills deserves a warm place to live. Makes sense then that people are out on the street freezing to death. They can’t pay the bills, so they don’t deserve a wam place to live. Hmm. Twisted.
Hmm. The same thing would happen if I put a 2 year old child in front of the keyboard. I wonder why more people aren’t kicking their kids and babies out on the street cos they can’t type…
My view is that we all have the ability to suffer and feel pain, animals included. Therefore our compassion should extend across the board and we should not discriminate on who gets preferential treatment.
Planet Earth, mainly. (I don’t have a great deal of experience with other places, alas.)
Without knowing what the chickens are thinking, you really can’t prove that. Chickens seem like they just want to get on with things, it seems unlikely they would bother us for no reason. Unless they needed us for food, in which case it would be up to us to survive. But things aren’t like that, so it’s difficult to assume accurately. The point is we share this planet with many other species. Alas humans have never been much good at sharing…
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Cristiano
Guest
Can you please describe the difference between suffering and pain? In my mind humans can suffer (endure because they are aware) but animals can only feel pain (lack of awareness)!
Can you also please explain why, in your view, we should extend our compassion to humans and/or to animals?
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jmcrae
Guest
Just curious; who do you think would be interested in buying Church furniture, and what do you think they would pay for it? And then, once the money’s gone, where would the poor people go to pray and to see something beautiful that reminds them of God?
Those beautiful things are in the Church for the poor to enjoy, as well as the rich. But once they’re sold off, they won’t be available for the public any more - if the Church is lucky and gets a historian to buy the stuff, then it’ll all be sealed up in a vault - and if the buyer just wants the stuff that the furniture and vessels are made of, then it’ll all be melted down and chopped up, and used to make stuff that only the extremely wealthy will be allowed to enjoy.
Where is the Church saying this?
There is no Church teaching anywhere that tells us what to do with our charitable givings. We can give to any cause that moves our heart - including animal charities.
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AngelAshley
Guest
Lack of awareness of what, exactly?
What I’m saying is that we should not discriminate against who we have compassion for. I’m questioning how you can have compassion for one but not another. Put it this way. Compassion is deep awareness of anothers suffering coupled with the wish to relieve it. If you have awareness of two beings suffering, how can you have sincere compassion and not wish to relieve the suffering of both? Or if their suffering is equal, who are you to decide who gets priority treatment? If you only want to relieve the suffereing of one, then is it compassion, or are you just doing it for brownie points?
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mlchance
Guest
False dilemma following a strawman. No one said it’s okay to let people die so that animals can have nice places to live, and the choice isn’t either help people or help animals.
– Mark L. Chance.
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Squishy
Guest
Indeed. This is the basic point i was making. The OP claiming that charities such as the PETA are immoral. I was mearly pointing out that his own church could be construed as just immoral for the same/simmiler flawed reasoning.Just curious; who do you think would be interested in buying Church furniture, and what do you think they would pay for it? And then, once the money’s gone, where would the poor people go to pray and to see something beautiful that reminds them of God?
Those beautiful things are in the Church for the poor to enjoy, as well as the rich. But once they’re sold off, they won’t be available for the public any more - if the Church is lucky and gets a historian to buy the stuff, then it’ll all be sealed up in a vault - and if the buyer just wants the stuff that the furniture and vessels are made of, then it’ll all be melted down and chopped up, and used to make stuff that only the extremely wealthy will be allowed to enjoy.
Where is the Church saying this?
There is no Church teaching anywhere that tells us what to do with our charitable givings. We can give to any cause that moves our heart - including animal charities.
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Cristiano
Guest
I would like an answer to my questions to have a better understanding of your thinking. You are making some statements about suffering, pain and compassion and how we should act. I am trying to get to your idea of why.
I am sorry, but it really bothers me when someone uses a question to address a previous question.
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AngelAshley
Guest
Don’t ask questions then 
I use questions to get people to think. I don’t have all the answers, I’m just trying to get people to question their so-called ethics - so many people just seem to be up on their high horses these days thinking they’re doing the world a favour, but are so far removed from reality that they need pointing out to them what they’re actually doing. Most of the questions I ask I don’t expect an answer to…
Except this one: “Lack of awareness of what, exactly?”. I do need to know the answer to that to give you a better answer to the first question you asked…
I use questions to get people to think. I don’t have all the answers, I’m just trying to get people to question their so-called ethics - so many people just seem to be up on their high horses these days thinking they’re doing the world a favour, but are so far removed from reality that they need pointing out to them what they’re actually doing. Most of the questions I ask I don’t expect an answer to…
Except this one: “Lack of awareness of what, exactly?”. I do need to know the answer to that to give you a better answer to the first question you asked…
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jmcrae
Guest
Animals are not self-aware. They are purely experiential - they don’t reflect on their experiences. They operate according to instinct and training. They don’t have thoughts running through their minds, the way people do.Don’t ask questions then
I use questions to get people to think. I don’t have all the answers, I’m just trying to get people to question their so-called ethics - so many people just seem to be up on their high horses these days thinking they’re doing the world a favour, but are so far removed from reality that they need pointing out to them what they’re actually doing. Most of the questions I ask I don’t expect an answer to…
Except this one: “Lack of awareness of what, exactly?”. I do need to know the answer to that to give you a better answer to the first question you asked…
For example, a drug-sniffing dog has no concept of “illegal drugs” - he is trained to perform certain actions when he experiences certain smells, but he doesn’t have the ability to say or even to think “I have found an illegal drug.” He isn’t thinking anything at all - he is just experiencing the smell and reacting to it in the way that he has been trained to react to it.
They also don’t have the concept of “suffering” and they are not reflecting or thinking about their pain. They experience the pain, and react to it according to their instincts, but they aren’t thinking about it, or gaining any sort of redemptive value from it.
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Cristiano
Guest
So you are saying that you are high up on your horse doing the world a favor, and that you want to challenge people into thinking, but when it comes to thinking by giving an answer you refuse to do the work? Is that either ethical or intellectually useful?Don’t ask questions then
I use questions to get people to think. I don’t have all the answers, I’m just trying to get people to question their so-called ethics - so many people just seem to be up on their high horses these days thinking they’re doing the world a favour, but are so far removed from reality that they need pointing out to them what they’re actually doing. Most of the questions I ask I don’t expect an answer to…
Except this one: “Lack of awareness of what, exactly?”. I do need to know the answer to that to give you a better answer to the first question you asked…
The definition of suffering and pain based on being aware is my own. I asked for yours, and not to define mine. I made a mistake of adding my own definition and that is not intellectually appropriate at this point of the discussion, please disregard it for now.
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buffalo
Guest
That does seem to be the practice however.
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mlchance
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Calliso
Guest
I have actually heard that some animals are believed to be self aware. Such as dolphins, apes, elephants And I think monkeys and maybe others as well. But not to go too much further into but from what I have read and seen over the years. I do not believe that all animals only operate on instincts. I do believe that a few are trully selfaware and can think to a certain degree. Though I donlt think any of them can think and reflect close to the degree humans can.
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warpspeedpetey
Guest
i tend to think of animals as gargatuan nano bots, the ultimate in deterministically driven circuitry.
that said…
they taste good.
that said…
they taste good.
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cargau
Guest
There are as many charities that seek financial support as there are causes. I was at the theater last week to see Mama Mia. The theater management made a pitch for patrons to kick in $20 to help fund new carpeting for the building.
A couple of months ago, my wife and I supported an event for juvenile diabetes. Again, where do we draw the line and say thatno charity should be supported if there is one hungry mouth to feed. It doesn’t seem realistic to me.
At the same time, we all encounter Jesus in the poor that we meet. How do we respond. I received this story in an e-mail today and I think it is appropriate for this thread:
Breakfast at McDonald’s
This is a good story and is true. A good lesson in preparation for Lent…
I am a mother of three (ages 14, 12, 3) and have recently completed my college degree. The last class I had to take was Sociology. The teacher was absolutely inspiring with the qualities that I wish every human being had been graced with. Her last project of the term was called, ‘Smile.’ The class was asked to go out and smile at three people and document their reactions. I am a very friendly person and always smile at everyone and say hello anyway. So, I thought this would be a piece of cake, literally.
Soon after we were assigned the project, my husband, youngest son, and I went out to McDonald’s one crisp March morning. It was just our way of sharing special playtime with our son. We were standing in line, waiting to be served, when all of a sudden everyone around us began to back away, and then even my husband did.
I did not move an inch… an overwhelming feeling of panic welled up inside of me as I turned to see why they had moved. As I turned around I smelled a horrible ‘dirty body’ smell, and there standing behind me were two poor homeless men. As I looked down at the short gentleman, close to me, he was ‘smiling’. His beautiful sky blue eyes were full of God’s Light as he searched for acceptance. He said, ‘Good day’ as he counted the few coins he had been clutching.
The second man fumbled with his hands as he stood behind his friend. I realized the second man was mentally challenged and the blue-eyed gentleman was his salvation.
I held my tears as I stood there with them. The young lady at the counter asked him what they wanted. He said, ‘Coffee is all Miss’ because that was all they could afford. (If they wanted to sit in the restaurant and warm up, they had to buy something. He just wanted to be warm).
Then I really felt it - the compulsion was so great I almost reached out and embraced the little man with the blue eyes.
That is when I noticed all eyes in the restaurant were set on me, judging my every action. I smiled and asked the young lady behind the counter to give me two more breakfast meals on a separate tray. I then walked around the corner to the table that the men had chosen as a resting spot. I put the tray on the table and laid my hand on the blue-eyed gentleman’s cold hand.
He looked up at me, with tears in his eyes, and said, ‘Thank you.’ I leaned over, began to pat his hand and said, ‘I did not do this for you. God is here working through me to give you hope.’
I started to cry as I walked away to join my husband and son. When I sat down my husband smiled at me and said, ‘That is why God gave you to me, Honey, to give me hope…’ We held hands for a moment and at that time, we knew that only because of the Grace that we had been given were we able to give.
We are not church goers, but we are believers. That day showed me the pure Light of God’s sweet love.
I returned to college, on the last evening of class, with this story in hand. I turned in ‘my project’ and the instructor read it. Then she looked up at me and said, ‘Can I share this?’ I slowly nodded as she got the attention of the class.
She began to read and that is when I knew that we as human beings and being part of God share this need to heal people and to be healed. In my own way I had touched the people at McDonald’s, my son,the instructor, and every soul that shared the classroom on the last night I spent as a college student.
I graduated with one of the biggest lessons I would ever learn: UNCONDITIONAL ACCEPTANCE.
Much love and compassion is sent to each and every person who may read this and learn how to
LOVE PEOPLE AND USE THINGS - NOT LOVE THINGS AND USE PEOPLE.
A couple of months ago, my wife and I supported an event for juvenile diabetes. Again, where do we draw the line and say thatno charity should be supported if there is one hungry mouth to feed. It doesn’t seem realistic to me.
At the same time, we all encounter Jesus in the poor that we meet. How do we respond. I received this story in an e-mail today and I think it is appropriate for this thread:
Breakfast at McDonald’s
This is a good story and is true. A good lesson in preparation for Lent…
I am a mother of three (ages 14, 12, 3) and have recently completed my college degree. The last class I had to take was Sociology. The teacher was absolutely inspiring with the qualities that I wish every human being had been graced with. Her last project of the term was called, ‘Smile.’ The class was asked to go out and smile at three people and document their reactions. I am a very friendly person and always smile at everyone and say hello anyway. So, I thought this would be a piece of cake, literally.
Soon after we were assigned the project, my husband, youngest son, and I went out to McDonald’s one crisp March morning. It was just our way of sharing special playtime with our son. We were standing in line, waiting to be served, when all of a sudden everyone around us began to back away, and then even my husband did.
I did not move an inch… an overwhelming feeling of panic welled up inside of me as I turned to see why they had moved. As I turned around I smelled a horrible ‘dirty body’ smell, and there standing behind me were two poor homeless men. As I looked down at the short gentleman, close to me, he was ‘smiling’. His beautiful sky blue eyes were full of God’s Light as he searched for acceptance. He said, ‘Good day’ as he counted the few coins he had been clutching.
The second man fumbled with his hands as he stood behind his friend. I realized the second man was mentally challenged and the blue-eyed gentleman was his salvation.
I held my tears as I stood there with them. The young lady at the counter asked him what they wanted. He said, ‘Coffee is all Miss’ because that was all they could afford. (If they wanted to sit in the restaurant and warm up, they had to buy something. He just wanted to be warm).
Then I really felt it - the compulsion was so great I almost reached out and embraced the little man with the blue eyes.
That is when I noticed all eyes in the restaurant were set on me, judging my every action. I smiled and asked the young lady behind the counter to give me two more breakfast meals on a separate tray. I then walked around the corner to the table that the men had chosen as a resting spot. I put the tray on the table and laid my hand on the blue-eyed gentleman’s cold hand.
He looked up at me, with tears in his eyes, and said, ‘Thank you.’ I leaned over, began to pat his hand and said, ‘I did not do this for you. God is here working through me to give you hope.’
I started to cry as I walked away to join my husband and son. When I sat down my husband smiled at me and said, ‘That is why God gave you to me, Honey, to give me hope…’ We held hands for a moment and at that time, we knew that only because of the Grace that we had been given were we able to give.
We are not church goers, but we are believers. That day showed me the pure Light of God’s sweet love.
I returned to college, on the last evening of class, with this story in hand. I turned in ‘my project’ and the instructor read it. Then she looked up at me and said, ‘Can I share this?’ I slowly nodded as she got the attention of the class.
She began to read and that is when I knew that we as human beings and being part of God share this need to heal people and to be healed. In my own way I had touched the people at McDonald’s, my son,the instructor, and every soul that shared the classroom on the last night I spent as a college student.
I graduated with one of the biggest lessons I would ever learn: UNCONDITIONAL ACCEPTANCE.
Much love and compassion is sent to each and every person who may read this and learn how to
LOVE PEOPLE AND USE THINGS - NOT LOVE THINGS AND USE PEOPLE.
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AngelAshley
Guest
No, quite the opposite. I am asking people who are on their high horse trying to “mend” the world to pop down from the clouds for a second to take a look at the damage they are causing. As for not doing the actual work, I have done the thinking. I don’t give an answer cos it could be shrugged off as my oppinion, ignored or argued. By asking a question, I get the person I’m talking to to actually engage the thought for themselves. It’s far more effective.
As for my definition of the difference between “pain” and “suffering”, well pain can cause one to suffer, but suffering is not limited to pain. Don’t see what it has to do with awareness… if you’re not aware of your own suffering, is there really suffering?
i tend to think of animals as gargatuan nano bots:
How narrow minded!
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warpspeedpetey
Guest
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Calliso
Guest
Actually don;t animals have souls? Just not eternal souls like humans do?since they dont have souls what else are they than
tasty, tasty nanobots?
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