Peter and marriage

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Hello all,

I was recently debating a Protestant and the issue of Peter and the Papacy came up. The Protestant brought up the point the Peter was married, and our priests/Popes are not. Another apologist came back, saying that Peter abandoned his family for the Church.
This is a quote, not directed at me, but still:

“So your saying that Peter abondandend his wife, haaa good luck trying to prove that from the bible…cause you sure dont get that idea from the scripture you stinkin liar, the bible never ever once records that Peter left his wife for the service of the lord…this is rediclious catholic b******t, your hellbound for sure, i can smell death and hell all over you.”

I hope that didn’t violate any forum rules.

So, basically, my question is this:
How do we validate the claim Peter left his wife and famiy for the Church?

To boil my question down further:
How do I refute this?
 
The Bible actually says nothing about Peter’s wife. It only mentions his mother-in-law. The Catholic assumption is that Peter’s wife had died before he began his ministry, but that the mother-in-law was still living.

That said, the whole point is irrelevant, since there ARE married Catholic priests today, although they are rare. Celibacy, although common in the early church, only ever became an official rule of the Latin branch in the 1100s as a reform. Some priests were committing simony, or using family connections to place their sons into offices in the church. Others were using collection money for lavish lifestyles for their families. This is why it was eliminated, and the reform was extremely popular at the time. Now, as a discipline of the church, exceptions can be made, and this rule could be changed at any time. In the Eastern branch of the Catholic Church, married men can STILL become parish priests, although they cannot advance.
 
I Corinthians 9.5
“Do we have no right to bring along a believing wife, as do also the other apostles, the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?”

I think this verse suggests that Peter (also known as Cephas) did bring along a believing wife, as did the other 11 apostles, as did James and Jude, who were commonly known as the Lord’s ‘brothers’.

The Latin rite Church ordains married men as priests when they meet certain criteria, and with the Pope’s approval. There are about 10 in Canada, over 200 in the USA. The church in her wisdom at the time (1,000 yrs ago) made a pastoral decision to require clerical celibacy. It is not a dogma of the Church. As a pastoral provision it could be changed.
 
**
How do we validate the claim Peter left his wife and famiy for the Church? **

Peter asked Christ, “Behold, we have left ALL and followed you.”

Jesus replied, “No one who has give up wife, or children, or houses, or lands for My sake will not have MORE in this life, with persecutions, and in the world to come life everlasting.”

What do you think?
 
Option 1: One could argue the passage in I Cor.9.5 is not referring to Peter when it cites Cephas as traveling with a believing wife.
That seems unlikely since,
a) that was the name Jesus gave him (John 1.42)
b) St Paul had already referred to him by that name earlier in 1 Cor 1.12 and 3.22. and then again later in 1 Cor 15.5.
c) No one else is called Cephas in the NT except Peter.
So, I think it is safe to say that St Paul is definitely referring to Peter.

Option 2. At the time when Peter professed to have left ALL and followed Jesus, this was a true statement. For the three years that he followed Jesus he left all, including wife and children, fishing boats and nets. Is there anything in Matt 19.27-29 that suggests that this was a permanent arrangement? In fact, Jesus addresses Peter and the apostles specifically in v.28 “and you who have followed me…”, and then moves to a more general statement in v.29 “And everyone who has left…”
It is possible that Peter’s wife had not yet become a believer at the time he spoke these words. Once she believed and became a follower of Christ, then it seems Peter was at liberty to bring her along when and where it was appropriate to do so.

Option 3. One could argue that St Paul is only saying that Cephas, the brothers of the Lord and the other apostles have the right to bring along a believing spouse, not that they actually do so.
However, the verse says clearly, ‘as do the other apostles.’

More work needs to be done here. Is there any official statement by the Church on this subject or on these verses? Do we need to validate a claim, if the Church has not officially made such a claim?
 
If one looks at early Christian tradition (yes, little “t” tradition), it is believed that Peter’s wife shared in his life even going to Rome with him. It is believed that she was persecuted and killed in the Coliseum even before Peter was.

So, when Peter says we gave up all and followed you, he could be talking about all his worldly ties, and not his sacred vows. He did own a seemingly thriving fishing business and simply walked away, didn’t he?
 
I Corinthians 9.5
“Do we have no right to bring along a believing wife, as do also the other apostles, the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?”
The word translated above as “wife” can also be translated as “woman.” The Bible says that women accompanied Jesus and ministered to him, and as far as I know none of them was his wife. (Matthew 27:55)

If I remember correctly, the married apostles practiced continence.
 
The word translated above as “wife” can also be translated as “woman.” The Bible says that women accompanied Jesus and ministered to him, and as far as I know none of them was his wife. (Matthew 27:55)

If I remember correctly, the married apostles practiced continence.
The question of whether or not they practiced continence is irrelevant though.

To the OP: the discussion point is moot. The catholic church does not DOGMATICALLY teach that the pope and the priests cannot be married. There is nothing intrinsically wrong about a pope or priest being married either. It is a DISCIPLINE of the church that priests are unwed to avoid scandalizing the sacred role of the priest as the trusted shepherd of the community (for example, would you feel as comfortable confessing something to a man who might tell his wife “hey guess what i heard today?” that night? I wouldn’t. Could you imagine running into your priest in a bar picking up on women? I don’t even want to think about it).

So, your vulgar protestant friend needs to learn that his objection is entirely baseless, and he could also do with a strict instruction in the fact that it is a SEVERE and mortal sin of pride for him to displace God’s role as Ultimate Judge and to think himself capable of judging you to be sent to hell.
 
Quite a leap that if priests were allowed to marry they would tell their wives all and be in bars hitting on women.

First of all, since there are Catholic priests who are married, it can be concluded that people can and do confess to married priests without fear he runs home and blabs it all to his wife. If he does blab it all to his wife, I don’t believe he would be a priest very long.

If priests were allowed to marry, I would assume that the majority of them would not be hunting for wanton women, but would instead find godly women to serve God by their sides.

And just for the record, not allowing priests to marry really hasn’t served to avoid scandal. Nor would allowing them to marry prevent all scandal. Both married and unmarried men can have scandals.
 
The question of whether or not they practiced continence is irrelevant though.
(for example, would you feel as comfortable confessing something to a man who might tell his wife “hey guess what i heard today?” that night? I wouldn’t. Could you imagine running into your priest in a bar picking up on women? I don’t even want to think about it).
Why is a married priest a scandal to the faithful?

Why do you think a married priest would excommunicate himself and put his soul in danger of hell by telling his wife what he heard in the confessional? If you knew how sacredly that trust is held you would not be so rash as to suggest that a priest, any priest, would break the seal of the confessional.

Your next comment about a priest being in a bar and picking up on women is just simply inappropriate and if it is directed against married priests, then it is even more reprehensible. Even the Eastern Churches state that whatever state you are in when you are ordained that is the state you must remain in. Single, celibate priests (already ordained) would not be looking for a wife, and neither would priests who are already married… so you would not see either of them in a bar for that purpose.
 
The word translated above as “wife” can also be translated as “woman.” The Bible says that women accompanied Jesus and ministered to him, and as far as I know none of them was his wife. (Matthew 27:55)

If I remember correctly, the married apostles practiced continence.
I was going to make this point, but I see someone beat me to it!

However I will provide a reference for it.👍

catholic.com/thisrock/2007/0705lw.asp
 
The original Greek is actually quite interesting. While most translators have something to the effect: “Have we not the right to bring along a believing wife…” The actual words for ‘believing wife’ are ‘adelphen gunaika’. The first word ‘adelphen’ you may recognize from the word Philadelphia (city of brotherly love) and this is the feminine of that word, meaning ‘sister’. The second word ‘gunaika’ means: “1. any adult female, (virgins included) and 2. wife.” [W. Bauer Gk/Eng Lexicon p.168]

So the text could be translated, word for word, as: "Have we not authority, a sister, a wife/woman, to take about, as do the other apostles… "

So, it could be argued that it was the common practice of Cephas, the Lord’s brothers and the other apostles to bring along with them an individual female (the word is singular) as their companion who was not their wife. Since the word ‘gunaika’ allows for it, she would have to be a consecrated virgin, I suppose, in order to avoid scandal.
But then, why does he not say that each apostle had a right to travel with women (pl) in their company, since, as the previous poster suggests, Christ had a group of women accompanying him? Why just one?
I appreciate the link to K.Keating’s short article as it helps to answer the question: Why does he specify the right to a female traveling companion and not a male? It would be appropriate to have a female to minister to females in some delicate circumstances.
 
First off, when you quote someone and cut out text, it’s generally considered courtious to place a “…” between so that there isn’t misunderstanding between the two entirely seperate statements by future readers.
Why is a married priest a scandal to the faithful?
I never said it WAS a scandal to the faithful, just that it CAN be under certain circumstances, which is why the married priesthood was dropped in the first place. We can play idealistic, or we can look at history and make open and honest assessments that will help with future decision making on disciplines of the church.
Why do you think a married priest would excommunicate himself and put his soul in danger of hell by telling his wife what he heard in the confessional? If you knew how sacredly that trust is held you would not be so rash as to suggest that a priest, any priest, would break the seal of the confessional.
again, realistically, this HAS happened in the past with priests who AREN’T married. The bond between a husband and wife is even stronger than other normal bonds. I’m not saying it WILL happen, especially not in every case, but it IS something that needs to be considered under the responsible authority of rome.

Further, I take offense that you seem to think I don’t understand the gravity of breaking the confessional seal. I assure you, I’m FULLY aware of the sanctity of the sacraments and my noted concern is a protection of that fact, not a slight against the sacrament in question.

There are priests who teach non-literal transubstantiation… and that is every bit as grave as not recognizing the secret nature of the confessional. The reason rome is the authority is because they DO realistically and responsibly consider these sorts of issues.
Your next comment about a priest being in a bar and picking up on women is just simply inappropriate and if it is directed against married priests, then it is even more reprehensible. Even the Eastern Churches state that whatever state you are in when you are ordained that is the state you must remain in. Single, celibate priests (already ordained) would not be looking for a wife, and neither would priests who are already married… so you would not see either of them in a bar for that purpose.
Why read more than what I said into a sentence? Straw men arguments are not appreciated here. Obviously, a married priest is NOT going to be in a bar picking up on women. I take offense, again, that you would even insinuate that I was saying any such thing.

For the record, because I don’t believe you understand my position, I fully support a married priesthood, albeit in the form that the eastern churches use. The point that was being made, which you so sublimely ignored in your righteous indignation at something I didn’t even say, is that if priestly marraige were allowed, and priests who WERE single were allowed to date and get married, is that those priests would have to meet a potential spouse SOMEWHERE. And yes, again with realism, there are potentially members of the laity who WOULD be scandalized by seeing the courting process with their priest.

FURTHER, let’s consider the potential for rumors and such if the priest started dating a member of their own congregation… after all, the perception of the priest is that of the shepherd. So the priest either dates someone from a different congregation… or a non-catholic entirely… more room for members of the laity to take offense in the second case.

ALL of these are important issues that have to be considered and dealt with in order to make reasoned choices for the church. Covering your eyes and ears and humming very loud to the realities of potential consequences doesn’t make those consequences any less real. No offense, but I’d say I’m farther along in hoping for the eventual restoration of a married priesthood than you are, since I’ve at least considered the realities such a decision would entail.
 
Was this on any particular forum?
  1. I cannot believe that that one poster came out and called another a liar…or condemned him. That’s…presumptuous.
  2. I read on these forums a few weeks or months ago that some saint appeared to some other saint (who was alive at the time) and told her that Peter’s wife was indeed alive post Ascention. We are not bound by apparitions. If one wanted to believe, though, it seems that Peter did take his wife with him on his ministries.
 
My dear Promethius,

I am new, as you can see, and I do not know how to just quote the section that I want to respond to, like you have done with my post. So, if I misrepresented you in any way by not putting in a "…, I apologize.

You are obviously upset. You believe I have misunderstood you. I will try to be less aggressive in the wording of my posts in the future. It was not my intention to offend you.

We are not far apart you know. We both look for the restoration of a married priesthood at a time and in a way that safeguards the sacramental life and teaching of the Church. You may be farther along than I, and if so, I commend you.

The way you phrased your concerns about the possible dangers of a married priesthood caused me to think that you opposed it. What you wrote was not clear to me, and perhaps I am at fault here. I heard, ‘We can’t have married priests because if we did they might tell their wives what they heard in confession.’ and, ‘if we allow priests to marry they will be embarrassing the faithful by trying to pick up women in bars.’ That upset me, and I responded rather forcefully to what I thought you were saying. Thank you for your clarification.

I am not the enemy.
Peace,
 
Hello all,

I was recently debating a Protestant and the issue of Peter and the Papacy came up. The Protestant brought up the point the Peter was married, and our priests/Popes are not. Another apologist came back, saying that Peter abandoned his family for the Church.
This is a quote, not directed at me, but still:

“So your saying that Peter abondandend his wife, haaa good luck trying to prove that from the bible…cause you sure dont get that idea from the scripture you stinkin liar, the bible never ever once records that Peter left his wife for the service of the lord…this is rediclious catholic b******t, your hellbound for sure, i can smell death and hell all over you.”

I hope that didn’t violate any forum rules.

So, basically, my question is this:
How do we validate the claim Peter left his wife and famiy for the Church?

To boil my question down further:
How do I refute this?
Hi!

Here’s one problem: some (I cannot say all) non-Catholics “know” about Catholicism through their own efforts (their prejudiced preconceptions or that of ther “spiritual” leaders); they are quick to claim superiority over Catholics in almost every single aspect of religion; they are slow to listen to Catholics and even slower to accept a different view even when the Holy Scriptures may be plainly stating a Catholic theological understanding; they are very short tempered when directly challanged or contradicted; an even smaller number of them constantly change their statements when they are proven wrong…

Here’s another: Did the Catholic practice of celibacy arise from an erroneous belief that Kephas/Cephas left his wife and lived a celibate life once he became Jesus’ disciple?

Neither this person nor any other protestant can make such claims because it never happend!

What is interesting enough is that that same person who is incenced by the Catholic Church’s Doctrine on celibacy is completely blinded to the fact that Paul did not only practiced celibacy but also promoted it!

I do not believe that there is much that you can gain by continuing an exchange with such an angry person who, as has already been expressed, has made himself into a god and has usurped Christ’s Authority by placing a Judgment of damnation on all Catholics (apparently that person is not very familiar with the Holy Scriptures), so I would advise you to stear the exchange to Bible study instead of religious claims.

Maran atha!

Angel
 
…I am not the enemy.
Peace,
I think we certainly both misunderstood each other. It takes a big person to be a maker of peace rather than to continue back and forth with scathing replies. Peace be with you also, my friend.
 
I happened to stumble across this today and remembered this thread:
St. Clement, disciple of Peter and 4th Bishop of Rome after Peter, records “They say, accordingly, that when the blessed Peter saw his own wife led out to die, he rejoiced because of her summons and her return home, and called to her very encouragingly and comfortingly, addressing her by name, and saying, ‘Oh thou, remember the Lord.’ Such was the marriage of the blessed, and their perfect disposition toward those dearest to them.”[St. Clement, disciple of Peter and 4th Bishop of Rome, from the *Stromata, VII.II
]
 
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