Peter as Jewish Apostle

[Jeanne1184]

If the Catholic Church follows the line of Peter and he was the “Jewish” apostle who continued to follow Jewish religious elements, why doesn’t the Catholic Church have more Jewish elements in it?

The only one that comes to mind is if the candelabra is associated with the menorah. Are there others?

 

[rcwitness]

If the Catholic Church follows the line of Peter and he was the “Jewish” apostle who continued to follow Jewish religious elements, why doesn’t the Catholic Church have more Jewish elements in it?

The only one that comes to mind is if the candelabra is associated with the menorah. Are there others?

How is Peter the “Jewish” apostle in your perspective? Are you referencing Paul from Galations 2:8?

Michael

 

[petra22]

If the Catholic Church follows the line of Peter and he was the “Jewish” apostle who continued to follow Jewish religious elements, why doesn’t the Catholic Church have more Jewish elements in it?

The only one that comes to mind is if the candelabra is associated with the menorah. Are there others?

Saint Peter was the apostle TO the Jews. Many Jews did not accept his teachings. He was Christian. A follower, the head of the church (catholic) of Jesus Christ.

 

[adrift]

Jewish-roots-of-catholic-christianity
You may want to watch this I haven’t but it sounded promising.

As to what I know of your question, every single sacrament comes from the Jewish religion.

I have been told that we would be very comfortable with Church services although I have no personal knowledge of this.

 

[Jeanne1184]

How is Peter the “Jewish” apostle in your perspective? Are you referencing Paul from Galations 2:8?

Michael

Well, that verse works, but the question arose in my mind based on what I thought was ‘common knowledge’. So, I don’t have exact verses handy and won’t have time to go fishing tonight, but I’ll offer my impressions, for now, gleaned from reading the NT. They could be amiss and I’m willing to be further instructed.

Impressions:

1. Paul is learned but in the topics of Greek education (philosophy, etc.) as well as *educational *learning of the Tanakh etc. He was not a Jew. I think that he could better grasp some of the subtle teachings Holy Spirit gave him because he had a more ‘metaphysical’ education.
2. Peter was learned but in all things Jewish, a Pharisee as far as learnedness. To me, part of the struggles he had concerned having one foot in the OT and one foot in the New. I see Christ choosing him to be a bridge for the Jews to cross into full NT (leaving the harsh rituals and chains of the 613 laws behind).

I have never gotten the impression that Peter ever stopped participating in the synagogue services and practices himself; that he ever fully ‘crossed over’ or stopped being a ‘bridge’. Thus it occurred to me this afternoon (because of Peter coming up in another thread) the original question of this post.

It isn’t a big deal or anything…I just got to wondering.

Off to shovel some of the lovely snow.

 

[adrift]

1. Paul is learned but in the topics of Greek education (philosophy, etc.) as well as *educational *learning of the Tanakh etc. He was not a Jew. I think that he could better grasp some of the subtle teachings Holy Spirit gave him because he had a more ‘metaphysical’ education.

What? Paul not a Jew?
He claims he was with an education from a famous rabbi
Acts
"I am a Jew, born in Tarsus in Cilicia, but brought up in this city. At the feet of Gamaliel I was educated strictly in our ancestral law and was zealous for God, just as all of you are today.

 

[TRH1292]

Jewish elements amazon.com/The-Crucified-Rabbi-Catholic-Christianity/dp/057803834X

 

[Jeanne1184]

What? Paul not a Jew?
He claims he was with an education from a famous rabbi
Acts
"I am a Jew, born in Tarsus in Cilicia, but brought up in this city. At the feet of Gamaliel I was educated strictly in our ancestral law and was zealous for God, just as all of you are today.

Well, I kinda thought that was one of those verses the ‘adversary’ snuck in (twice). I didn’t think it was possible, from what I’ve read, to be both a Roman and a full Jew at that time. Did Jews often serve in the Roman army to route out Christians or did the Jewish elders have the power to send Paul on missions to hunt down Christians? (Acts 22:5)

Plus, Paul just doesn’t come off as rigidly Jewish, although that’s not proof of anything. But it does seem to make sense that the ‘apostle to the Gentiles’ would be a converted Gentile. I don’t know as it has never been an area of intense study for me before.

 

[TRH1292]

Well, I kinda thought that was one of those verses the ‘adversary’ snuck in (twice). I didn’t think it was possible, from what I’ve read, to be both a Roman and a full Jew at that time. Did Jews often serve in the Roman army to route out Christians or did the Jewish elders have the power to send Paul on missions to hunt down Christians? (Acts 22:5)

Plus, Paul just doesn’t come off as rigidly Jewish, although that’s not proof of anything. But it does seem to make sense that the ‘apostle to the Gentiles’ would be a converted Gentile. I don’t know as it has never been an area of intense study for me before.

Paul was, like some Jews born in the Hellenistic diaspora, a Roman Citizen. As he grew up he became an extremely devout leader in the Jewish Pharisee movement.

 

[steve53]

Paul probably had a Greek father, and a Jewish mother.

Jewsihness is determined by the mother.

His father earned Roman citizenship most likely.

That he was accepted to be trained by the second Temple goes more to the openess of the Jewish religion than any else.

Saul (later Paul) probably became a thug against the Christians perhaps to impress the High Priesthood.

Having a Greek father, it is unlikely that Saul could have advanced into the higher echelons of the Second Temple Priesthood.

source: Hagan “Fires of Rome”

 

[Jeanne1184]

Jewish-roots-of-catholic-christianity
You may want to watch this I haven’t but it sounded promising.

As to what I know of your question, every single sacrament comes from the Jewish religion.

I have been told that we would be very comfortable with Church services although I have no personal knowledge of this.

Hadn’t thought of the intangibles. I can see ‘types and shadows’ for baptism, confirmation and (loosely) communion but, to me, they were ‘made new’ by Christ and are not ‘carry-overs’ of the Jewish tradition.

*If * the candelabra is connected to the menorah, that would be a ‘carry-over’ from Judaism rather than something Christ brought up-to-date in His ministry.

Strangely, just now thinking about it, marriage seems to fall under ‘carry-over’ as I can’t right off think of any verse that transformed it like the others. Something to keep in mind as I read.

The part about being comfortable in synagogue services? If it would be like a class where they shared the nuances of the Hebrew language of the OT (like Rabbi Lapin on Ancient Jewish Wisdom), I’d be game.

 

[Jeanne1184]

Paul probably had a Greek father, and a Jewish mother.

Jewsihness is determined by the mother.

His father earned Roman citizenship most likely.

That he was accepted to be trained by the second Temple goes more to the openess of the Jewish religion than any else.

Saul (later Paul) probably became a thug against the Christians perhaps to impress the High Priesthood.

Having a Greek father, it is unlikely that Saul could have advanced into the higher echelons of the Second Temple Priesthood.

source: Hagan “Fires of Rome”

Interesting conjecture…I’l weigh it against my ‘rogue verse’ theory and see which one wins.

Though, from what little I do know about the Jewish faith, I wouldn’t have thought they would have raised up thugs to attack Christians. I thought they disciplined their own according to very strict guidelines. Killing to impress the Jewish priesthood sounds sketchy, to me, at this time.

 

[steve53]

Hey, we’re talking Second Temple Judaism here.

It was a virtual Theocracy.

Tacitus likened it to a form of slavery.

The Jewish High Priesthood were dedicated enemies of the Christians all the way up to the Jewish Revolt in A.D. 66.

When the Jews were defeated by the Romans, the High Priesthood was outlawed and the Temple destroyed.

 

[TimothyH]

The Catholic Church has many Jewish elements in it.

• The Tabernacle is from the Jewish portable “dwelling place” of God.
• The lavabo in the Mass (where the priest washes his hands) is from the Jewish ritual purification of hands.
• Baptism is an elevation of the ritual mikveh purification bath to sacramental status.
• The Eucharist is deeply rooted in Judaism including the bread of the presence which was kept in the Holy Place in the Temple and the passover meal where unleavened bread was eaten.
• The Liturgy of the Hours has its roots in the Jewish daily prayer cycle and the Old Testament command to pray seven times daily.
• All of our major holidays and feast days have roots in the Jewish cycle of festivals - Christmas corresponds to the Jewish Festival of Lights, Pentecost corresponds to the Jewish Feast of Tabernacles, etc.

The list goes on and on. I don’t think people realize how much our religion owes to Judaism.

-Tim-

 

[steve53]

Not to nitpick, but Christmas is probably more related to the winter solstice.

 

[Jeanne1184]

Hey, we’re talking Second Temple Judaism here.

It was a virtual Theocracy.

Tacitus likened it to a form of slavery.

The Jewish High Priesthood were dedicated enemies of the Christians all the way up to the Jewish Revolt in A.D. 66.

When the Jews were defeated by the Romans, the High Priesthood was outlawed and the Temple destroyed.

I didn’t know “theocracy” was a negative with regard to the Jewish faith. What sticks with me is that the Jewish people were ‘houseguests’ of the Roman Empire. They were allowed to practice their religion within particular guidelines set by the Romans.

This is a quick snatch from the net but is a sample of the info I have often seen:

"Jews had lived in Rome since the second century BC. Julius Caesar and Augustus supported laws that allowed Jews protection to worship as they chose. Synagogues were classified as colleges to get around Roman laws banning secret societies and the temples were allowed to collect the yearly tax paid by all Jewish men for temple maintenance.

There had been upsets: Jews had been banished from Rome in 139 BC, again in 19 AD and during the reign of Claudius. However, they were soon allowed to return and continue their independent existence under Roman law."

( pbs.org/empires/romans/empire/jews.html )

I am neither a Bible scholar nor a historian of the Jewish people, nor is there time in my possible years left become so. I have to ‘keep it simple’ and look for solid underpinings for a stable foundation for studying. I didn’t switch from godless to Jesus until my 40s.

I depend on the intellectuals who can who can bring things down to my level. There are many, and I am truly grateful. If I have put a harmful premise into the equation, then I would appreciate correction, but I can’t discuss from a ‘scholarly platform’. I spend more time trying to apply the heart of Jesus’ Scriptures to my thinking and behavior over other avenues. ‘Mind tools’ are my friend, like (and several others):

"In a controversy, the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the Truth, and have begun striving for our selves ((ego)). - Thomas Carlyle (Liberties taken to show how it translates into a tool for application for me and not just mental agreement.)

I try to figure out why, in 2,000+ years the Jewish people haven’t seen enough Christ in Christians to make them want to ‘let go’ and Trust Him. I want to be someone they see functioning in the world and ask, “What is it that makes you different?”

1 Peter 3:15 (KJV) - But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the Hope that is in you with meekness and fear ((Delight in the Lord)).

A couple of weeks ago, Fr. Cedric had John Talbot host his program. John sang the words, “Christ has no body now but yours.” Sobering lyrics, for me.

 

[TimothyH]

Not to nitpick, but Christmas is probably more related to the winter solstice.

There is a whole thread on this.

The Jewish festival of Lights (Hanukkah) was a celebration of the re-dedication of the Temple. Jesus is the temple not made with human hands. We celebrate the entrance of the Light of the World into creation. Hanukkah is always celebrated on the 25th of the month of Kislev on the Jewish calendar, which is always early winter.

The length of days increase after the Feast of the Nativity of the Lord (Christmas) and decrease after the the Feast of the Nativity of John the Baptist (June 24). John the Baptist said, “He must increase, but I must decrease.”

There are many reasons why we celebrate the Nativity of Jesus near the end of December. There is a whole thread on it going on right now.

-Tim-

 

[steve53]

Not sure what your question is.

Whatever the Roman attitude towards the Jews was prior, it changed after the revolt in A.D. 70.

Judaism was forced to change, with the High Priest and High Priesthood being banned, and no animal sacrificial ritual allowed. They likely did away with the Astrology aspect of Judaism as well- the Priests had been experts in it. The Temple was destroyed and the Jews were banned from Jerusalem- those who weren’t enslaved.

It might be better for you to think of the Jews as not a religion, but as a people. Indeed, the different factions of Jews had their own thoughts as to heaven, hell, morality, etc.

By the time of the revolt, the High Priesthood had pretty much run the Christians out of the traditional Jewish lands, so we see the early Christian centers in Rome, Antioch, Ephesus, Corinth, and several cities of the Decapolis.

Theocracy is not necessarily bad- the Vatican is a Theocracy.

But Tacitus thought so.

 

[Jeanne1184]

The Catholic Church has many Jewish elements in it.

• The Tabernacle is from the Jewish portable “dwelling place” of God.
• The lavabo in the Mass (where the priest washes his hands) is from the Jewish ritual purification of hands.
• Baptism is an elevation of the ritual mikveh purification bath to sacramental status.
• The Eucharist is deeply rooted in Judaism including the bread of the presence which was kept in the Holy Place in the Temple and the passover meal where unleavened bread was eaten.
• The Liturgy of the Hours has its roots in the Jewish daily prayer cycle and the Old Testament command to pray seven times daily.
• All of our major holidays and feast days have roots in the Jewish cycle of festivals - Christmas corresponds to the Jewish Festival of Lights, Pentecost corresponds to the Jewish Feast of Tabernacles, etc.

The list goes on and on. I don’t think people realize how much our religion owes to Judaism.

-Tim-

Thanks. This is along the line I was wondering about. Messianic Jews in the programs I watch are puzzling and unsettling to me and I’m trying to tease things apart to understand.

I don’t think, at this moment, that following this further would be helpful. For some reason, I thought the NT was ‘stand alone’ rather than mixed. I don’t know why I thought that, I just evidently did/do.

 

[Usagi]

Jeanne,

Of the factions hinted at in Acts and Galatians, James’ bunch in Jerusalem seems to have been the most attached to their background as Jewish Christians. (This James is commonly understood to have been Jesus’ “brother,” James the Just, and not either of the two Apostles James, though sometimes he is considered to be the same as James the Less.) We don’t hear a lot about his faction by themselves, but their effect on Peter and Paul is mentioned.

Paul, though born and raised a Jew by his own testimony (unless you go with your “verses snuck in by the adversary” theory), very strongly rejected any notion that Gentile converts be required to become (or act like) Jews in order to become Christians. While his work was mostly with those Gentiles, he did seem to conclude that even Jewish Christians were no longer bound by the old Law and practices.

Peter seemed to be kind of stuck in the middle. He was the one who received the revelation that Gentiles could become Christians (and, secondarily because of the symbolism God chose in that revelation, that the dietary laws were no longer binding). Yet infamously, under the influence of “people from James,” he reverted to avoiding sharing meals with Gentile Christians until Paul showed up to correct his behavior.

All three men spoke at the Council of Jerusalem that tried to settle the dispute and established the requirements for Gentile Christians. There’s a longstanding Catholic/Protestant debate over whether Peter or James was “the leader” of that gathering, since it was held in James’ city and he spoke last (though Peter did speak very wisely on the topic). It seems unlikely to me that James was the leader of the entire Christian movement, since he kind of seems to come out of nowhere (being previously mentioned only as one of the relatives who feared Jesus might be nuts); naturally, though, there are people who envision a struggle between Jesus’ family members and his other followers and claim that James’ leadership role was obscured or suppressed. Whatever the case, it certainly seems that James’ faction lost that particular debate, even if he was the one who got to make the pronouncement.

The degree to which any of the first-generation Jewish Christians stopped being Jews (even Paul says he went to the synagogue first in each new city, and he was supposed to be the “apostle to the Gentiles”) is questionable. I’ve seen some claims that the two-part structure of the Christian liturgy (readings-and-sermon/homily followed by the Eucharist) reflects an early practice of attending first the synagogue service and then moving to a Christian home to share Holy Communion, or even doing the first part on Saturday and the second on Sunday. Naturally that changed after a few decades, due to the dual pressures of the influx of Gentile Christians and the forced diaspora of the Jews after the Roman sack of Jerusalem.

Usagi