Peter as the Rock

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pritchard85;8267656:
Actully, my friend…there is.

Answer this question then: Tell the chapter and verse where Mark claims authorship of the Gospel of Mark (excluding title and table of contents, there were placed later),

Once you locate this chapter and verse, then answer this questions too: How is one to know the gospel of Mark should be in Scripture? How do you know it is inspired?

Then, once you answer the questions, then I would suggest you start anther thread on it. It will off topic.
All of these points are very relevant to the discussion. Actually until Pritchard proves that Scripture is all that’s needed and that Scripture explicitly states this, we won’t get anywhere in this discussion. I guess what we are all saying Pritchard is “help us help you”. 😉 If you dont everyone in here can logically and validly conclude that you have no real intent in discussing these things and we can all be on our way. Until the Bible alone argument can be established and proven there is no point in discussing the Papacy under Bible alone standards.
 
pablope;8268240:
All of these points are very relevant to the discussion. Actually until Pritchard proves that Scripture is all that’s needed and that Scripture explicitly states this, we won’t get anywhere in this discussion. I guess what we are all saying Pritchard is “help us help you”. 😉 If you dont everyone in here can logically and validly conclude that you have no real intent in discussing these things and we can all be on our way. Until the Bible alone argument can be established and proven there is no point in discussing the Papacy under Bible alone standards.
Hi, Saint A…right you are.

He says all should be in the Bible, but he has not even proven that is the case. That is what everybody is waiting for. Our interlocutor, Prichard…says we are wrong, but he cannot prove why he is correct either. :confused:

Let us offer prayers for him/her…he seems to have a lot of hatred inside his soul for the Catholic Church.
 
I don’t think there will be anything short of,----- And Jesus said to Peter,“I grant you supremacy over all; you speak infallibly along with all the Popes that follow you when you teach on faith and morals.” that will satisfy prichaard85. He wants something that is not there word for word.

“Trinity” is not explicitly in the Bible either, we believe in it because of what is implied in the Bible.

Jesus created the Church, and only one church, and that Church teaches all truth 1Tim 3:15. Do you believe that?

We believe the early followers of Jesus understood Peter’s role because they believed what they were taught. The Holy Spirit will not lead the Church into error. Unfortunately, there will always be people who can not believe no matter what you show them.
 
Are you serious? You are comparing a short article to a book and concluding that the book is better because it is a book?

No, not at all. I wouldn’t expect an article to as in depth as a book. But an article can still be compared qualitatively with a book on the same subject. Hahn doesn’t give a great explanation IMO, and the book I recommended does.

In any case, I suggested it as something the OP might enjoy, you can feel free not to read it.
 
Perhaps it isn’t explicit in Scripture because it was IN PRACTICE and could be seen by all.
Ah, but this is actually the sticking point for me. If we could see it in practice, I think that would actually be fairly convincing in light of the rather ambiguous Scriptural indications. It’s the fact that we don’t see it in practice that is the most vexing to the Catholic position - it can only be justified by appealing to development of doctrine.
 
But we do see it in practice. The Catholic church is still here doing what we did 2000 years ago!
 
Every time a post Crucifixion religion or Christian denomination was founded, was there not also a Catholic pope present in the world? Many Scriptural and ECF quotes were given that point to Peter’s office of authority. It didn’t need spelled out by the Apostles because it could be seen in practice. No need to point out what everyone could see, the hierarchical structure of the Church Christ built. To deny the presence of a Catholic Pope since the Resurection is to deny history.
 
Why is it that you believe someone like Scott Hann can get something out of Scripture that Protestants can’t? You seem to think that there is no such thing as an intelligent Protestant and that Protestants can’t possibly be well versed in the Catholic faith. For centuries there have been many very sharp Protestant scholars that would all agree that the papacy is absent from Scripture. Scott Hann is an extremely zealous ex-Presbyterian convert who I believe looks very hard to make huge jumps to come up with things in Scripture that really aren’t there.
 
No, not at all. I wouldn’t expect an article to as in depth as a book. But an article can still be compared qualitatively with a book on the same subject. Hahn doesn’t give a great explanation IMO, and the book I recommended does.

In any case, I suggested it as something the OP might enjoy, you can feel free not to read it.
Okay then, if you can compare it qualitatively to Scott Hahn’s article then perhaps you can answer the questions I posed regarding your comments on Scott Hahn’s article.

You came up with a few conclusions which you have not substantiated so perhaps you could substantiate it with explanations. Otherwise your points are meaningless.
 
Ah, but this is actually the sticking point for me. If we could see it in practice, I think that would actually be fairly convincing in light of the rather ambiguous Scriptural indications. It’s the fact that we don’t see it in practice that is the most vexing to the Catholic position - it can only be justified by appealing to development of doctrine.
But we do. If you actually bothered to read the rest of the article then you would actually see it in practice in the early Church.

And appealing to the development of doctrine is a very sound rule. However it has to be true development of doctrine.

Take a look at the Anglican decision to allow contraception. Did the Anglicans actually feel they can “develop doctrine” and actually go against doctrine? What made the Anglicans think they can actually go against the Church back then just because the king though it was his right? Where is the doctrine that said that the king can make up his own doctrine?

Or the beliefs we have about the Trinity and the hypostatic union, how do we arrive at that if not through development of doctrine?
 
You won’t show me by Scripture where and how it is that your church holds Peter in a Supreme and Infallible role.
No, but we can show you why you are suffering from a misconception about the role of Peter, and the gift God has given to the Church of infallibility.

You are suffering from a worldly/fleshly perspective, and this is a curable condition. 😉

Scripture is clear that the leadership that comes from Christ does not have this “supremacy” concept from which you seem to suffer.

Matt 20:25-28
“You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them. 26 It shall not be so among you; but whoever would be great among you must be your servant, 27 and whoever would be first among you must be your slave; 28 even as the Son of man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

Peter was very humble, as is clear from his letters. His leadership over the flock of God was as a servant. This is why, to this day, his successors sign all their writings “servant of the servants of God”.
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The heat Is On You my friend because you can't prove it by Scripture.  You won't and you can't.  I say that as nicely as I can to you but it remains to be seen.  Stop trying to play down Scripture.  Just prove it.:)
pritchard, you are misinformed. There is nothing in Scripture that says all that was handed down to us is contained in scripture. There is also nothing there that demands that we prove all the doctrines given to us by the Apostles through Scripture.

That being said, there is plenty of Scripture to support the role of Peter. It will not be visible to you, however, because you are reading it with your anti-Catholic lenses. If you are willing to set them aside, we will be able to show you why we believe as we do. You would not have to agree with us to understand our point of view, but in your present state of recalcitrance, it will not work to look at the scriptures together.
 
No, but we can show you why you are suffering from a misconception about the role of Peter, and the gift God has given to the Church of infallibility.

You are suffering from a worldly/fleshly perspective, and this is a curable condition. 😉
The problem is one can’t be cured if one does not desire for the illness to go away 😃
 
Here is more from the EARLY CHURCH…do not choke on them…👋
I think Pritch was choking before arrival on CAF. I sense a hostility and resistance that was there before this discussion began. Not sure why this comes across, or where it came from, but many people just have a problem with authority of any kind.
 
Ya know, it makes me laugh
It is true there is a somewhat mocking tone to your posts. I wonder what the source of that might be?
when I hear another explanation why the Scriptures don’t mean what they say or how we absolutely have no correct way or any idea of what Scripture says outside of your magisterium.
You seem to have considerable hostility toward the Catholic faith. It also seems that you are in posession of considerable misunderstandings and misinformations about Catholicims. The CC does not teach that the is “absolutely no correct way or any idea of what Scritpure says outside the magesterium”.

Have you considered actually having some dialogue about what the CC really believes and teaches, rather than all these erroneous notions you have collected?

Have you considered laying aside your hostility in order to learn?
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Of all the Catholics I have ever spoken with on this subject over many many years, this is the first time I have ever heard anything remotely close to this.  I don't accept it.  Sorry.
It is likely that you misunderstood what you were told, or, it may be possible that someone made a mistake in saying it. In either case, one person’s personal expression is not necessarily what the Church teaches. If you are going to hate Catholicism, would it not show more integrity if you hated it because of what the Church really teaches, rather than misconceptions?
If Peter was everything your church claims, then he would have been spoken of in Scripture in these ways and he simply was not.
This is an erroneous idea, and one that you cannot scripturally support, either.
You cannot fill the void there that clearly exists.
The void exists for you pritchard because you refuse to accept what is written, and because you are clinging to the notion that everything that Jesus taught is contained in Scripture. Catholics don’t suffer from these deficiencies, so we don’t have a void. 😃
Paul never eluded to Peter being supreme in any of his Epistles. Not once. At some point here you have to admit that this isn’t an argument that can be supported by Scripture.
Why would Paul subscribe to your erroneous and wordly attitudes about leadership in the Church?

The fact that Paul does not write about Peter’s role extensively does not mean there is no scriptural support for it.

Paul’s letters were written to Churches he planted, to address doctrinal and pastoral issues. Peter’s role was not among the problems in the early Church. Your assumption that it should be makes no sense.
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The Bible is also not a Catholic book. It was compiled by the Early Church, East and West together.
It appears that you have some things to learn about the history of your faith. If you can curb your hostility, you won’t get banned, and you can learn something. 👍

The Early Church, East and West togehter, was Catholic. All Catholic, all the time, everywhere. 😃
In fact look at where those councils ended up. Carthage and Hippo both became part of the Orthodox church. So, if we wanted to be technical here, we could say that the Bible is an Orthodox book, but then we have another problem. Your canon isn’t the same as the Orthodox canon. Why?? There’s just too many voids to cover to make the Catholic argument to work.
The Bible is as much an Orthodox book as it is Catholic, because it was compiled prior to the schism. And you are wrong, there are no discrepancies in the 27 books of the NT identified at Hippo, Carthage, and later by the Council of Rome in 382.
 
You are using verses singular to try and come up with your beliefs. It doesn’t work that way. read Scripture as a whole and it’s simply not there.
I agree with you, it does not work that way. This idea of trying to “prove” things by using singular verses of scripture is an artifact of Modern American Evangelicalism that is about 100 years young.

On the contrary, the Catholic faith is not extracted from the pages of the book as are the faiths of many members of “bible churches”. Our faith comes directly from Jesus, through the Apostles. We don’t have to “come up with beliefs” like bible christians do, because our faith was delivered once for all to the Church, and has been preserved infallibly in that Church by the Holy Spirit from the time that Sacred Deposit was made.

We receive the faith, as was intended. Those who have departed from the One Faith of the Apostles use verses to try to “come up with beliefs” because they have lost the Apostolic Succession, and become disconnected from the Divine Deposit of Faith.
 
You are making a leap that is clearly not in Scripture.
No, a leap is not necessary for us. Our faith did not come out of the book, like yours does. Peter’s role in the early church was very clear, and was functioning strong for decades before any books of the NT even began to be written.
Let’s not play word games here. Your church proclaims Peter to have been such. Scripture does not support that. Enough said.
No, Pritchard, I very much doubt that the Church makes the claims you think she does about Peter. It does not appear that you understand the nature and purpose of the Petrine gifts, or the gift of infallibility. If you did, you would not make assertions like you do. On the contrary, you seem to be misinformed. To make matters worse, your hostility may make it impossible for you to become informed. One has to wonder why you came here, because you don’t seem to be wanting any Catholic Answers. You seem to want to tell us what we believe, rather than hear from us. 🤷

I do agree, though, Scripture does not support your erroneous ideas about Catholic doctrine.
Well, then every author of every book of Scripture would then be Infallible by your reasoning then. We know that this isn’t true.
This statement is proof that you do not understand the gift of infallibility. The gift enables a fallible person to complete an inerrant action. In fact, what you have stated here is exactly true. Every writer of scripture functioned infallibly when penning the Scripture. that is why the writngs are considered inspired and inerrant.
See if Peter wrote infallible scriptures and is recognized as the leader, then what you have is an infallible leader aka The Pope.
Peter, as well as all the other writers of Scripture, wrote infallibly.

As far as how the gift functions presently, there is really no point going further, since you don’t understand the gift.
Huge leap. Not at all Biblical or real.
Yes. Your erroneous leaps have put you outside of the boundaries of what we would consider orthodox faith.
 
Christ established one Church and He made Peter the earthly head of that Church. Those that do not share your Faith will never fully understand Matthew 16:13-20. This passage of Sacred Scripture is Christ giving to Peter ( NOTE A NAME CHANGE USUALLY MEANS A MISSION) the power of the ‘Keys of the Kingdom’.
Christ is only echoing the words of the Prophet ISAIAH…( Isa 22:19-23), then compare Matthew 18:1-21.
Initially Christ only addresses Peter , to whom He has given absolute power. The Apostolic Succession beings with Peter and continues unbroken to Benedict XVI.
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Christ established One Church and gave authority to one man...'I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven : whatever you bind on earth will be considered bound in heaven; whatever you loose on earth shall be considered loosed in heaven" Authority give to one of the disciples..and only one Peter.
It takes Faith to appreciate this…as they once said ‘for those with Faith no explanation is necessary; those without Faith none is possible’
 
Today’s readings at Mass (Aug 20, Sunday)

Isaiah 22:19-23 Thus says the Lord to Shebna, master of the palace: "I will thrust you from your office and pull you down from your station. On that day I will summon my servant Eliakim, son of Hilkiah; I will clothe him with your robe, and gird him with your sash, and give over to him your authority. He shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah. I will place the key of the House of David on Eliakim’s shoulder; when he opens, no one shall shut, when he shuts, no one shall open. I will fix him like a peg in a sure spot, to be a place of honor for his family.

Matthew 16:13-20 Jesus went into the region of Caesarea Philippi and he asked his disciples, “who do people say that the Son of Man is?” They replied, “Some say John the Baptist, others Elijah, still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter said in reply, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. ** And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”** Then he strictly ordered his disciples to tell no one that he was the Christ.
 
The Bible is the inherent Word of God. It doesn’t parallel the pope as you are trying to point out. Infallibility is the notion of the pope being without mistake when speaking in ex cathedra. This has nothing to do with Scripture.
The above comments clearly tells everyone you have the slighest clue about doctrinal dvelopment. Scripture has EVERYTHING to do with infallibility,only goes to show you have no clue what you are saying.

By the way, I noticed you NEVER answer questions,but simply dance around them.

Did Peter write two FALLIBLE letters or INFALLIBLE letters?

Let me know when you have the courage to answer?
 
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