Peter as the Rock

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Would you mind expanding upon this? I thought it was basically unanimous amongst Catholics that the bolded “rock” in “You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church” refers to Peter himself.
It is, but the statement is also a rock, and Jesus is The Rock. None of them are separated from one another. The ability of Peter to be “rocky” comes in his assertion of this faith, and being grafted into Christ, who is the Rock of Ages. 👍
 
Would you mind expanding upon this? I thought it was basically unanimous amongst Catholics that the bolded “rock” in “You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church” refers to Peter himself.
Augustine says that the rock is Peter’s faith. Earlier in life he said that Peter is the rock. It could be he changed his mind, but it’s also true that theologians had no problem understanding things more than one way.

In any case, the views of the early Church are varied on this point. They didn’t really care about defining it the way we do, they were not out to prove something about the papacy, so they didn’t really make their comments with our needs in mind.

But that also means we have to be careful about using what they said to make an argument they didn’t intend. Doing that is how some Calvinists try to use Augustine to support the rejection of free will.
 
Ah, I see. I’m relatively new to this stuff, so thanks for the deeper insights!
 
modern Catholic view of the papacy to his friend - that modern Catholisism is in line with Scripture and the early Church. If he simply wants to show that the early Christians had some kind of view of the papacy, that is a totally different kettle of fish. I would agree there is really little doubt about that.
… And we don’t see the Pope acting as the modern papacy does, or even the medieval papacy.

I can follow you on the midieval papacy, but what is it about the “modern” that is inconsistent with Scripture? It seems to me that we have been blessed with holy popes for the last century.
 
It’s my understanding that the OP wants to defend the modern Catholic view of the papacy to his friend - that modern Catholisism is in line with Scripture and the early Church. If he simply wants to show that the early Christians had some kind of view of the papacy, that is a totally different kettle of fish. I would agree there is really little doubt about that.
So modern Catholicism is NOT in line with Scripture and the early church? Provide examples because I am not sure what you are referring to by making such a charge.
I don’t disregard the EFCs at all. Clearly they think Rome has a special role. There are many examples of them saying a number of things about the papacy though that haven’t been mentioned - some clearly tell us that the rock is Peter’s faith as one example - we know that there wasn’t one view of this in the early chuurch.
Really? So provide an ECF teaching Peter was merely an equal and the not Prince of Apostles? On the contrary, I give many examples of many ECF’s are saying the same.
Or we see Rome being described as having special status due her political power and wealth, not her relation to Peter.
Political power and wealth-in the early church? Serious? When,where and what ECF said such a thing?
And we see in the actions of counsels of the bishops no hesitation at disagreeing with the Pope or sitting in judgement on him. And we don’t see the Pope acting as the modern papacy does, or even the medieval papacy.
And who said one cannot disagree with the pope? Disagreeing is a weak argument against the primacy of Rome. Wrong! You apparently have not read enough because I can provide numerous cases where eastern bishops travel hundreds miles to have serious matters resolved. If the Bishop of Rme had no jurisdiction at all,then I am curious to know why would ANY Eastern bishop bother to take an in-house issue to another bishop hundreds of miles away? So much for the “first among equals” status-eh
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Sad to say,but many are plain ignorant or else they would not believe the nonsense they do. The truth is hard to accept at times.
This is undoubtedly true, many people believe silly things, or even sensible things for silly reasons.
👍
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Respected? Provide a few names.
Tom Wright
C.S. Lewis (not a theologian but a pretty bright and well educated fellow)
Kallistos Ware
Sproul
Thanks.
One of my (Anglican) university profs, R.D Crouse, taught patristics at the Augustinianum in Rome. Presumably they thought he had through understanding of the early Church. The old rector of my church had a doctorate in Byzantine studies - he knew something about Church history too.
Surprising as it may seem to you, there are people who really know Church history and it does not lead them to Catholicism.
And that proves what? Jehovah Witnesses read history at times and point to Arius a rejecter of the Trinity-does it constitute the Truth? Either Christ left a Church with the Truth or not. Opinions is exactly what has divided Protestanism,fundamentalist,etc due to opinions,not doctrinal truth.
All the time I see this bizarre attitude of intellectual superiority, which I never saw between the Catholic and non-Catholic members of my university. Real scholars know that these are not obvious arguments on either side.
I am not concerned wtih intellectual superiority,but TRUTH.
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Really? Name one ECF who objected or denied Peter’s primacy?
The question is what did they mean by primacy - did they mean what the CC says it means today?
According to several ECF’s they sure oppose your position.
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And this is where the Protestant position fails miserably. Did the church already have the complex doctrine of the Trinity in its fully formed state right in the beginning? How about the Incarnation or canon of scripture?
Of course not. ( Protestants do in fact realize this. One doesn’t actually have to recognize the idea of development of doctrine however to explain that - it is a relativity new idea).
But that wasn’t my point. My point was that if the Bible and the EFCs were as clear as people in this thread seem to be claiming, it should have come out fully formed. Because it is so easy and obvious and all the people in the early Church knew it.
Which begs the question:

Then provide the “other” orthodox teaching which apparently would have been evident or fully formed as you claim, in the early church;thus, making the RCC position null, void or a novelty? Where are those overwhelming sources from the early church?
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“Kinds” of powers? Elaborate.
The power to appoint and depose bishops unilaterally.
Got a case?
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Apparently you have not read early church history prior to 1054-have you? Should I provide names of Eastern bishops who had no qualms with the Bishop of Rome has having the primacy or was it all a lie?
Again, what is the primacy? What are those bishops saying when they say Rome has it? What are they not saying? What are they doing?
What is primacy? According to who? The opposition? Again,show me ONE ECF denying or rejecting primacy? You are giving a very common modern view of the primacy of Rome,not an ancient one. Your position is much in tune with many modern EO’s who claim the pope merely had a position of honor. Unfortunately,as I stated,the are nmany eastern bishops who would not support your position.
You are offering a false dichotomy.
Really? So everything written by many ECF’s about the Roman bishop is a false dichotomy? No offense,but this sounds like a cop-out,not a valid defense.
 
While I do think that Mt 16 is likely the best example from the Bible of Peter’s unique role, I definitely do not think that the Church’s interpretation lives or dies by this verse alone. …>>
V

I enjoyed hearing Dr. Hall’s interpretation. I’ve heard this interpretation before, but not with the knowledge of Greek that Dr. Hall brings to the table. I must admit that, at first, I was unsure of how to directly address his interpretation since I do not know Greek. Given this fact, …
  1. Dr. Hall’s first point: Since petra can only refer to a feminine object or person, or an abstract idea, petra must refer to Peter’s confession of faith.
The whole crux of the matter is not so much the petros/petra issue but what the Lord meant. If the Lord indeed spoke Aramaic, then the petros/petra becomes moot and academic, a non-issue.

So the point that has to be addressed first of all is what language did Christ use and is there any ambuiguity in that language.

First : What are the things that we can now with certainty and those that are mere speculation.

Speculations:
  1. That the Gospel was written in Aramaic ( although there is some evidence to support this)
  2. That Jesus spoke Greek. That is indeed pure speculation but we can definitely say that He can speak whichever language He pleases.
Certainty:
  1. That the Gospel of Matthew as it has come down to us is written in Greek
  2. That Jesus spoke Aramaic. Yes, that is something we know with certainty. The Bible says so.
Mark 5:41 Talitha kum
Mark 7:34 Ephphatha
Mark 14:36 Abba
Matthew 6:24 and Luke 16:9-13 -Mammon
Matthew 27:46 and Mark 15:34 Eli Eli lema sabachthani
John 1:42 “You are Simon the son of John; you will be called Cephas” (which is translated Peter).

What is interesting about these words being in Aramaic is because the Gospel is written in Greek!!!

If the Gospel was all in Aramaic, we can argue that of course it is in Aramaic because the author is writing in Aramaic. But because the author/(translator) was writing in Greek then, the fact that particular Aramaic words were included, makes you wonder – what was the Holy Spirit up to in making sure that the Aramaic was noted. After all, the writer could have easily had every single word in Greek.

If the original was Aramaic and was only translated into Greek, what was the reason for retaining some Aramaic words? Why not translate everything into Greek. There again you see the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Allen C Meyers wrote: "*It is generally agreed that Aramaic was the common language of Israel in the first century A.D. Jesus and his disciples spoke the Galilean dialect, which was distinguished from that of Jerusalem. *

Meyers cites here Matthew 26:73 when Peter was being accused of being a member of Jesus’s group :“A little later the bystanders came over and said to Peter, “Surely you too are one of them; even your speech gives you away.”

Rev. Dr. Mark D. Roberts writes: *There is evidence, however, that points to the use of Aramaic in Galilee, the region where Nazareth was located. Such evidence includes inscriptions, contracts, and other ancient writings. It makes sense that residents of Nazareth spoke Aramaic, given the fact that Aramaic became the official language of Galilee from the sixth-century B.C. onward. Thus, it seems likely that ordinary residents of Galilee, including Nazareth, spoke Aramaic as their first language. This was the language of common discourse among Jesus’ family and friends. *

But in Matthew 16:18 how do we know that He did speak Aramaic?

What we must look at is who is Jesus talking to? He is talking to a simple fisherman from Galilee,. What sort of language would He use with a simple fisherman?

There is reason to believe that He spoke Latin with Pilate, and perhaps Greek to the more learned. But to a simple fisherman?

We need to remember as well that when this was happening, the other apostles were there too. What would be the language that we can reasonably assume, based on Archeological findings, would these other apostles speak? Based on the above archeological notes, Aramaic.

But Jesus also gives us a very good clue. Jesus says to Peter : "Blessed are you, Simon barjona. “Bar” is the Aramaic for son, that is why most English bibles translate this as Simon son of Jonah. But in the Greek text barjonah is what is used.

And a corroborating point is John 1:42 "Then he brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him and said, "You are Simon the son of Jonah you will be called Cephas" (which is translated Petros).

Since Kepha means rock in Aramaic (without any ambiguity) and Kepha translates to Petros then Petros means Rock not stone.

Another interesting note: the final sigma (s) in Cepha(s) was added in Greek to make it masculine instead of feminine. Now this is exactly what was done in the Greek translation: to masculinize petra they called him Petros.
 
Would you mind expanding upon this? I thought it was basically unanimous amongst Catholics that the bolded “rock” in “You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church” refers to Peter himself.
Yes, it cannot be anything but Peter. It does not even refer to his confession as some here would like to propose. One would be hard pressed to come up with that based on the structure of the verse.

It could be said however that his confession is what makes him rock but it is not his confession that is the rock.

And Jesus affirms this when He said that Peter could have only known this through a revelation by the Father. It could also be argued that it was not just Jesus who chose Peter to be Rock but the Father Himself.

After, all when He took them to Caesaria Philipi He already had this in mind as I will explain in my response to TimothyH. So maybe (yes, just speculating) Father and Son had been discussing this and Father said I will show you who I wish you to choose.

God could have made a simultaneous revelation to all the Apostles but He didn’t.
 
Jesus was referencing the rock upon which solomon’s temple was built, the large stone upon which the Islamic dome of the rock now stands.
Not quite.

Matthew 16: 13-19

*When Jesus went into the region of Caesarea Philippi he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” They replied, “Some say John the Baptist, others Elijah, still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” *
*He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” *
Simon Peter said in reply, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.” Jesus said to him in reply, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."Then he strictly ordered his disciples to tell no one that he was the Messiah.

Caesaria Philipi is around 20 miles ( a rough two days journey up the mountains) from Galillee.

Now why does our Lord go to all that trouble just for this scene?

Caesaria Philipi which used to be called Panneas was dedicated to the Greek god Pan. When Philip Herod became tetrarch of that region he gave it to Augustus Caesar for some favour so it became Ceasaria Philipi, that is, Ceasar’s city from Philip.

In this region is a humongous rock around 500ft long and 200ft high.

On top of this rock is a huge marble temple with an idol of the god Pan. Philip Herod replaced that idol of Pan with the idol of the divine Ceasar Augustus (emperors were considered divine).

To the left of the rock is a cave and in the cave is a deep hole filled with water which is the source of the Jordan river. The pagans believed this to to be the gates of sheol - the doorway to the underworld.

So now we have Jesus standing next to this rock, on top of which, is a temple to a false god (two false gods as a matter of fact) next to which is a cave that is the gate to sheol. He is now saying that He will do something different. He will build the Church of the True God on top of the true rock and that rock is Simon barJonah and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.

We even see here a parallel with the sheep/shepherd motif in the commissioning of Peter in John 21. This area and temple used to be dedicated to Pan, the god of shepherds. Here we have Chist the True God giving the promise to Peter who He will later commission to shepherd His sheep.

The water in the cave is the origin of the Jordan River, where He was baptised and went with His disciples when they went baptizing. Think of Peter being the rock and the water from this Rock now watering Gods’ people. You can see in this symbolism the whole salvation theology including that of baptism as a sacrament of incorporation into Christ’s Church.

Another thing, and this is very important, neither Jesus nor the Father made any teaching about Jesus’ true identity and mission. This teaching THEY caused to be pronounced through Peter.
Christ could have gone around proclaiming He is the Son of God but He didn’t. He let that be declared through Peter.


If you notice, even His apostles had no real clue as to who Jesus was. Peter cuts through all that speculation and pronounces the TRUTH about Jesus Christ. Through the ages to this very day, his successors continue to pronounce the truth about who Jesus is and what His mission is all about
 
Augustine says that the rock is Peter’s faith. Earlier in life he said that Peter is the rock. It could be he changed his mind, but it’s also true that theologians had no problem understanding things more than one way.

In any case, the views of the early Church are varied on this point. They didn’t really care about defining it the way we do, they were not out to prove something about the papacy, so they didn’t really make their comments with our needs in mind.
Not quite correct. While some Church Fathers disputed the rulings of some Popes, they never questioned that the Pope had the authority to make those decisions.
But that also means we have to be careful about using what they said to make an argument they didn’t intend. Doing that is how some Calvinists try to use Augustine to support the rejection of free will.
When it is quite clear what they intend there is no reason why we should not.

The Calvinists are quite correct to use St Augustines to support pre-destination because even though St Augustine’s may be more nuanced, his position on this has not been given the stamp of approval by the magisterium. As wonderful a Doctor of the Church St Augustine may be, he is not the magisterium.
 
It’s my understanding that the OP wants to defend the modern Catholic view of the papacy to his friend - that modern Catholisism is in line with Scripture and the early Church.
And what makes you think it is not?
If he simply wants to show that the early Christians had some kind of view of the papacy, that is a totally different kettle of fish. I would agree there is really little doubt about that.
So please show that the modern day understanding of the Papacy is not consistent with Scripture and the early Church.
I don’t disregard the EFCs at all. Clearly they think Rome has a special role. There are many examples of them saying a number of things about the papacy though that haven’t been mentioned - some clearly tell us that the rock is Peter’s faith as one example - we know that there wasn’t one view of this in the early chuurch.
I think it is only St Augustine who advanced a different view but even this latter understanding is not in conflict with his earlier one.
Or we see Rome being described as having special status due her political power and wealth, not her relation to Peter.
Huh? :confused:
And we see in the actions of counsels of the bishops no hesitation at disagreeing with the Pope or sitting in judgement on him.
Did they question his authority?
And we don’t see the Pope acting as the modern papacy does, or even the medieval papacy.
Please support that statement.
All of which is to say, to defend modern Catholic views of the papacy based on this is not the slam-dunk some seem to think.
But all of your points are just statements which you have not backed up with one minute fact.
This is undoubtedly true, many people believe silly things, or even sensible things for silly reasons.
Tom Wright
C.S. Lewis (not a theologian but a pretty bright and well educated fellow)
Kallistos Ware
Sproul
The other 3 probably but Sproul? Hardly.
One of my (Anglican) university profs, R.D Crouse, taught patristics at the Augustinianum in Rome. Presumably they thought he had through understanding of the early Church. The old rector of my church had a doctorate in Byzantine studies - he knew something about Church history too.
Well then tell us what he has taught you and instead of just name dropping.
Surprising as it may seem to you, there are people who really know Church history and it does not lead them to Catholicism.
No it isn’t surprising. Mere knowledge does not mean that one will follow the truth of that knowledge. Take for example learned atheists. Even when they are confronted with the sheer illogicality of their materialistic epistomology they still cling to it. Dawkins and Hawking are two persons that come to mind.
The question is what did they mean by primacy - did they mean what the CC says it means today?
How about you tell us since you say that claim to have done a fair bit of study into this? Tells us what the Church Fathers understood about the See of Peter.
 
C.S. Lewis (not a theologian but a pretty bright and well educated fellow)
I love CS Lewis but I find his stand on this strange. From what I remember, he objected to becoming Catholic becase while he does believe in the dogma’s that the Church has proclaimed he is afraid that he may have to give his assent to future dogma’s which he might not want to accept. But the point is, if the Church is who she says she is, then she will be guided by the Holy Spirit into truth as regards whatever future dogma there may be.
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And this is where the Protestant position fails miserably. Did the church already have the complex doctrine of the Trinity in its fully formed state right in the beginning? How about the Incarnation or canon of scripture?
Of course not. ( Protestants do in fact realize this. One doesn’t actually have to recognize the idea of development of doctrine however to explain that - it is a relativity new idea).

Are you serious? The development of doctrine is a new idea? While the term may have been coined rather late by Newmann, the practice has been happening from the time of the Apostles!

The term may be new but the idea certainly is not. It is precisely by development of doctrine that we have the Trinity, Incarnation, hypostatic union, the canon, etc, etc.
But that wasn’t my point. My point was that if the Bible and the EFCs were as clear as people in this thread seem to be claiming, it should have come out fully formed. Because it is so easy and obvious and all the people in the early Church knew it.
But that is precisely the point of development of doctrine. As the Church digs deeper into the mysteries, she comes into deeper understanding of those mysteries. We do not have a static Church whereby what went on int he 1st decade should be how we should be 2 millenia after.

I mean just check out your own denomination. You have developed your own doctrines on “women priests”. “contraception”. “actively gay priests” etc. As a matter of fact the birth of your own Church was a “development” (or more like corruption) of doctrine by one who is not even part of the “doctrine developing” board. And yet you have no qualms about belonging to this Church who has corrupted so many teachings that it cannot possibly fall into what can be called as “true development” of doctrine.
You are offering a false dichotomy.
Please show where the false dichotomy lie.
 
Honestly guys, when i have more than one person ask how the modern papacy differs from that of the early Church, I kind of throw up my hands. I don’t intend to repeat the reasons I’ve already given in the discussion because someone can’t seem to keep them in mind for more than two posts. And asking for examples of how the Pope did not have the power to appoint and depose bishops in the early Church? How does one provide an example of someone not doing something? If you guys don’t know that a counsel has put itself in judgement of the orthodoxy of popes, then you are the ones that need to read more history.

And attacking Anglicanism in a thread about the papacy is a sort of bizarre ad hominem argument or an attempt to distract - it certainly has nothing to do with the OPs question. And yes, development of doctrine is a new idea. The Church as a whole did not always understand itself that way, and the Orthodox still reject it.

Do look at the text I suggested to the OP. It is a Catholic book so shouldn’t offend your sensibilities, but it doesn’t try to gloss over the complications of the Catholic position.
 
Honestly guys, when i have more than one person ask how the modern papacy differs from that of the early Church, I kind of throw up my hands. I don’t intend to repeat the reasons I’ve already given in the discussion because someone can’t seem to keep them in mind for more than two posts. And asking for examples of how the Pope did not have the power to appoint and depose bishops in the early Church? How does one provide an example of someone not doing something? If you guys don’t know that a counsel has put itself in judgement of the orthodoxy of popes, then you are the ones that need to read more history.

And attacking Anglicanism in a thread about the papacy is a sort of bizarre ad hominem argument or an attempt to distract - it certainly has nothing to do with the OPs question.

Do look at the text I suggested to the OP. It is a Catholic book so shouldn’t offend your sensibilities, but it doesn’t try to gloss over the complications of the Catholic position.
Your position has been noted and respected. However,I strongly disagree with you and history does too because I have read and studied this case for years. By the way,the Catholic position is not complicated at all,the complications stem from those who oppose it and not presenting the “other” tradition which prevailed over the primacy.
 
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The whole crux of the matter is not so much the petros/petra issue but what the Speculations:
  1. That the Gospel was written in Aramaic ( although there is some evidence to support this)…
Papias, who lived in about 100 C.E., wrote about the synoptic problem, but unfortunately his works have all been lost, and all we have are quotations from his writings by Eusebius and others. Papias is quoted as saying that Mark wrote down what Peter had said, but not in order (or verbatim), and also that Matthew had compiled the sayings of Yeshua in Aramaic and everyone had translated them as best they could. But we owe to Papias the earliest mention of either Mark or Matthew as a biographer of Yeshua.

What reason is there not to believe Papias, Eusebius and others?
 
Honestly guys, when i have more than one person ask how the modern papacy differs from that of the early Church, I kind of throw up my hands. I don’t intend to repeat the reasons I’ve already given in the discussion because someone can’t seem to keep them in mind for more than two posts. And asking for examples of how the Pope did not have the power to appoint and depose bishops in the early Church?
Sorry Bluegoat, I did read this example after I asked the question. It seems to me that all the Apostles had the power to appoint and depose. Do you think this Apostolic authority is a problem? I realize the custom developed early to have at least 3 bishops present when appointing a new Bishop, but in the early days, there were not that many bishops available!

I guess I am lost as to how it is a problem for any patriarch to have the power to ordain bishops. They never do it in isolation from the rest of the elders. Do you think that the deposition or appointment of bishops has happened arbitrarily, or unfairly? In the last century, I mean?
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  If you guys don't know that a counsel has put itself in judgement of the orthodoxy of popes, then you are the ones that need to read more history.
I can’t see how this is at all relevant. Infallibility has nothing to do with personal impeccability.
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And yes, development of doctrine is a new idea.  The Church as a whole did not always understand itself that way, and the Orthodox still reject it.
I wonder if this is a semantics problem. The Orthodox and Anglicans accept all the same councils, do they not? Doctrine has been developed since the council of Jerusalem!
 
Papias, who lived in about 100 C.E., wrote about the synoptic problem, but unfortunately his works have all been lost, and all we have are quotations from his writings by Eusebius and others. Papias is quoted as saying that Mark wrote down what Peter had said, but not in order (or verbatim), and also that Matthew had compiled the sayings of Yeshua in Aramaic and everyone had translated them as best they could. But we owe to Papias the earliest mention of either Mark or Matthew as a biographer of Yeshua.

What reason is there not to believe Papias, Eusebius and others?
There is absolutely no reason to believe them. But I thought since most people would just go by Matthew as it comes down to us, then what I wanted to show is that even taking Matthew as it is in Greek, we can still establish unambigously that Peter is indeed the rock - not his confession, nor some other abstract rock.

As I said in my post, I think the fact that it is in Greek is what makes it even more interesting.
 
Honestly guys, when i have more than one person ask how the modern papacy differs from that of the early Church, I kind of throw up my hands. I don’t intend to repeat the reasons I’ve already given in the discussion because someone can’t seem to keep them in mind for more than two posts. And asking for examples of how the Pope did not have the power to appoint and depose bishops in the early Church? How does one provide an example of someone not doing something? If you guys don’t know that a counsel has put itself in judgement of the orthodoxy of popes, then you are the ones that need to read more history.
Okay, I haven’t read the earlier part of this thread so maybe you have given support but I must say I doubt it - you couldn’t back up your broad conclusions about Scott Hahn’s article. But I’ll read the earlier posts.
And attacking Anglicanism in a thread about the papacy is a sort of bizarre ad hominem argument or an attempt to distract - it certainly has nothing to do with the OPs question. And yes, development of doctrine is a new idea. The Church as a whole did not always understand itself that way, and the Orthodox still reject it.
Actually it is very germane to the thread because we are talking about development of doctrine. You are questioning “development of doctrine” in relation to Catholic dogma and yet here you are accepting Anglicanism which in itself is the English Church’s own development of doctrine.

What makes your own "development " (or more appropritately corruption) of doctrine acceptable? What makes Anglicanism acceptable considering it sprouted from a “development” of doctrine.

Furthermore, if development of doctrine is such a questionable idea, then why hold to the doctrines that the early Church developed. What makes a 4th century development of doctrine any more valid than a 20th century one? So should we also eschew the Trinity and the hypostatic union not to mention the Real Presence?

If you are going to question the validity of the “development of doctrine”, then you better start questioning the Church of England’s inception and all the developments it has sprouted. Otherwise you are being hypocritical.
 
Sorry Bluegoat, I did read this example after I asked the question. It seems to me that all the Apostles had the power to appoint and depose. Do you think this Apostolic authority is a problem? I realize the custom developed early to have at least 3 bishops present when appointing a new Bishop, but in the early days, there were not that many bishops available!

I guess I am lost as to how it is a problem for any patriarch to have the power to ordain bishops. They never do it in isolation from the rest of the elders. Do you think that the deposition or appointment of bishops has happened arbitrarily, or unfairly? In the last century, I mean?
No, the issue is not that a patriarch would have the power to ordain bishops. The issue is that the powers the pope claims, now, in this area are different. In Catholisism, the Pope can appoint - and more importantly perhaps - depose bishops not only on his own, but in the whole Church.

Has he ever done this arbitrarily or unfairly in recent times? I’m not sure, I would not think so. In the medieval period, I wouldn’t be surprised. But it is impossible to deny that this is a clear change in the understanding of the role of the papacy.

One can argue that it is a natural change, and a justifiable change, but one does actually have to make the argument.
I can’t see how this is at all relevant. Infallibility has nothing to do with personal impeccability.
It’s not just personal theology we are talking about here, it is how the Church was going to express itself theologically. If a councel of of Catholic Bishops set itself up to judge the orthodoxy of the Pope’s theological statements as Pope, with every expectation that the decision of the council would be the authoritative voice, wouldn’t that seem quite a reversal of the way the papacy is understood today?
I wonder if this is a semantics problem. The Orthodox and Anglicans accept all the same councils, do they not? Doctrine has been developed since the council of Jerusalem!
It may be to a point - the idea of “development of doctrine” means something quite specific, but some people like to look at it more broadly. There are basically two views:

View one says that the Church had the fullness of the Christian teaching from the beginning. Two things can happen over time: what was already believed can be explicated more precisely and reaffirmed (normally in the face of unorthodox teaching claims) or the historic teaching can be adapted to some degree to a new situation. So, for example, a new technology like in vitro fertilization could be commented on in light of historic teachings.

The other view is the “development of doctrine” view which says that what was given to the apostles was a kind of seed or kernal that would over time come to grow and flower, guided by the Holy Spirit. THis view has been observable in Catholicism for a long time, but was clearly defined and named

The Catholic Church uses development of doctrine to justify the modern institution of the papacy, among other things. But the Orthodox, and some Anglicans, and even other Protestants, explicitly reject that view.
 
Okay, I haven’t read the earlier part of this thread so maybe you have given support but I must say I doubt it - you couldn’t back up your broad conclusions about Scott Hahn’s article.

I didn’t go in depth on Hahn’s article because it didn’t interest me to do so. I was asked for thoughts, so I gave my general impressions. He hadn’t said anything that was not already in this thread or a lot of others. I’m really not interested in convincing people that the modern papacy is beyond the pale somehow. I’d really just like to see people recognize that some quote mines from Scripture and the Fathers don’t help much.

Actually it is very germane to the thread because we are talking about development of doctrine. You are questioning “development of doctrine” in relation to Catholic dogma and yet here you are accepting Anglicanism which in itself is the English Church’s own development of doctrine.

What makes your own "development " (or more appropritately corruption) of doctrine acceptable? What makes Anglicanism acceptable considering it sprouted from a “development” of doctrine.

Furthermore, if development of doctrine is such a questionable idea, then why hold to the doctrines that the early Church developed. What makes a 4th century development of doctrine any more valid than a 20th century one? So should we also eschew the Trinity and the hypostatic union not to mention the Real Presence?

If you are going to question the validity of the “development of doctrine”, then you better start questioning the Church of England’s inception and all the developments it has sprouted. Otherwise you are being hypocritical.
No, it is a distraction. What difference does my personal belief on anything have? Development of doctrine is not the only view on how we understand the history of the Church. As it happens, I don’t accept it, but getting into how Anglicans view this is starting to get very off-topic.

Really, some people here won’t even say it is a matter of development of doctrine, they honestly seem to think that the papacy in the 5th century, or even the 2nd century, was set up just like it is today.
 
Bluegoat:
The Catholic Church uses development of doctrine to justify the modern institution of the papacy, among other things. But the Orthodox, and some Anglicans, and even other Protestants, explicitly reject that view.
With all due respect,but this is an extemely weak argument and just plain absurd and disingenious. A complete SLAP in the face towards doctrinal development. But I can bet all of my life savings Orthodox,Anglicans and Protestants do not explicitly reject the view ALL other doctrines developed-eh? It is nothing but a case of conflict with “our” traditions,nothing more and nothing less.
Bluegoat:
Really, some people here won’t even say it is a matter of development of doctrine, they honestly seem to think that the papacy in the 5th century, or even the 2nd century, was set up just like it is today.
Another weak argument. Is the ‘office’ of the U.S. President the same today as it was in 1789? The same domestic issues? Same international issues? If you say yes,then you apparently do not know history or are in deep denial.
 
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