Peter as the Rock

  • Thread starter Thread starter ChrisB103
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Again, can you show me where they are in Scripture?
The scriptures have been posted up the thread, Pritch. I think Benedictus2 is right, and you either don’t want to read, or don’t know how to read. You have lost your credibility. A person who really wants to enter an honest debate will be willing to look at the evidence apart from their preconceived notions. You have demonstrated a considerable degree of hostility toward Catholicism that apparently prevents you from setting aside your bias.

An honest reader will be able to stand in the shoes of the other, and understand how they reach the conclusions they do. One does not have to accept those conclusions to see them. You have demonstrated you are either unwilling, or unable.

I have to wonder why you are here?
I have yet to get anybody here to show them.
It is awful hard to see anything when you have those blinders on your eyes. 😉

There are none so blind as those who do not wish to see.
Nobody will show the evidence!🙂
I am glad that many posters on this thread have provided an abundance of evidence, because I think there are probably others reading the thread that will benefit from it.

You remind me of someone standing in a field on a sunny day, eyes squeezed shut, hands over ears, saying “there is no sun!”.
Exactly that. Not what is commonly referred to today as tradition that does not square with Scipture.
I am sure it does not square with your personal interpretation of the Scripture, which you have repeatedly revealed to be deficient. Sometime when you are willing, you might consider reading this thread from the beginning, taking your time to look at the evidence that has been presented.
;)Hostile? Sure maybe so. Did you notice how I have been treated in some instances?
No, but I think you were hostile before you signed up. 😉
The problem is that many of us do not accept where you claim that your proff comes from. You cannot prove the papacy from Scripture and you cannot prove Mariology from Scripture either.
This is yet another example of you not listening, Pritch. We never claimed “proff” of our faith from the Scripture. On the contrary, it has been repeatedly pointed out to you that our faith was whole and entire before a word of the NT was ever written. People who are separated from the Apostolic faith are relegated to find “proff” from the Scripture. Naturally, since this is not how the faith was intended to be transmitted, it is no wonder that it has strayed from the One Faith of the Apostles. 🤷
Again, where does it come from? You cannot steer us anywhere except attempting to get us to buy into “Tradition” which is seemingly that category that everything that cannot be proven is put into.
Clearly, Pritch, no one will “steer” you anywhere, since you are unable to even look at the Scriptures with an open mind. We are here to provide Catholic Answers. You don’t seem to want them.
I don’t accept it because you can’t show me its validity and origin.
Right.

If you are convinced the earth is not orbited by the moon, then no amount of showing you that moon will change your mind. For some reason, you need to cling to your falsehoods. This is your perogative. I wish you well in your spiritual journey, and you will remain in my prayers.
 
The scriptures have been posted up the thread, Pritch. I think Benedictus2 is right, and you either don’t want to read, or don’t know how to read. You have lost your credibility. A person who really wants to enter an honest debate will be willing to look at the evidence apart from their preconceived notions. You have demonstrated a considerable degree of hostility toward Catholicism that apparently prevents you from setting aside your bias.

I ask you to show me your proof and you accuse me of being hostile. This is so ridiculous. I’ve been asking you over and over again to show it. Instead of waiting for you to just admit that it isn’t there, I am going to ignore any of your further attempts to draw me into a condescending argument.🙂
 
I’m asking you.
You do appear to ask questions, but it does not seem that you really want “Catholic Answers”. The fact that you would even ask this question demonstrates that you don’t understand the gift of infallibility, the quality and function of inspiration, and the basis of the inerrancy of the Scriptures you are trying to use to beat us over the head.
 
You do appear to ask questions, but it does not seem that you really want “Catholic Answers”. The fact that you would even ask this question demonstrates that you don’t understand the gift of infallibility, the quality and function of inspiration, and the basis of the inerrancy of the Scriptures you are trying to use to beat us over the head.
again, you won’t answer. Based on your definition of Infallibility, is Paul infallible?

Is that clear enough??🤷
 
There seems to be no good and reasonable platform for the RCC to wish for unity with others. It seems only interested in division in its further exclusion. This is one of the main reasons I left 8 years ago.
Pritch, you don’t seem to have enough expereince about history and theology to know this, but you will have as many problems with the Orthodox position as you do the Roman Catholic.

The Church is not “Roman”, but Catholic. There are 23 Rites in the CC, and only one of them is Latin (Roman). One of the problems with your shallow criticisms is that they do not encompass the non-Roman Rites. You have to find a way to explain away their theology, along with that of the Orthodox. Good luck with that. 😉

That being said, the Church does not “wish for unity”. This is silly. Unity is a consequence of embracing the Truth. Those who embrace the Truth are automatically in unity with Christ, and His Church. We pray for unity, and work toward it by educating the ignorant (one of the missions of CAF).

Your statement that you left because of “exclusion” indicates that you left over moral problems. This is the main reason that people separate from the unity of the Body of Christ. It is difficult to accept and live by the moral precepts of Christ. I did the same thing, and stayed gone for the better part of 20 years before I found my way back. CAF has taught me a lot about the faith I abandoned in search of something better. I am sure when the time comes for you to be open, the same can happen for you.
 
I ask you to show me your proof
If you are unwilling to explore and discuss the evidence that has already been posted, there is no point posting more.
and you accuse me of being hostile. This is so ridiculous.
I agree. The hostility is related to your refusal to have an intelligent dialogue. Scripture and early fathers have been posted, and you refuse to look at the evidence objectively. Hostility is what prevents this from happening.
I’ve been asking you over and over again to show it.
Indeed you have, with your fingers stuffed in your ears, eyes shut, saying loudly over and over “I don’t want to hear it, I don’t want to hear it”. :eek:

A bit disingenuous of you, don’t you think?
Code:
Instead of waiting for you to just admit that it isn't there, I am going to ignore any of your further attempts to draw me into a condescending argument.:)
I am glad you recognize that your arguements have been condescending. I am equally glad to hear that you are willing to abandon them. Perhaps you will continue to grow in grace, and reach a point where you can look at what the Catholic Church believes and teaches, rather than clinging to your erroneous ideas. 👍
 
again, you won’t answer. Based on your definition of Infallibility, is Paul infallible?

Is that clear enough??🤷
Pritch, again I will encourage you to go back and read the thread. I answered this extensively, not because I thought you would read it, or care, but for others who are reading the thread that really do want to know.

If you get an answer you don’t like, or with which you do not agree, that does not make them “non-answers”. It just means you are not open to looking at the evidence from any other point of view but your own.

I am curious, what do you mean by the use of this term here “infallible”?

What does “is Paul infallible” mean to you? That he cannot make any mistakes?
 
Ok, and we do not ever see Peter as Supreme anywhere. We keep going in these circles. It simply isn’t there.
What is asserted without reason may be rejected without reason.
40.png
pritchard85:
No he didn’t. The Scriptures you point to to try and prove this are very ambiguous and don’t show what you claim.
First, it must be noted that in scripture, every time the Apostles are listed, Peter is at the top of the list(Matt. 10:1-4, Mark 3:16-19, Luke 6:14-16, Acts 1:13). To ancient minds this is not accidental, and certainly not “ambiguous”.

Second, Peter is the one who always spoke for the twelve(Matt. 18:21, Mark 8:29, Luke 12:41, John 6:68-69).

Peter was the one who initiated the call for a new apostle to be made, as well as setting the criteria for it(Acts 1:16-22).

Peter was the one who gave the first sermon after the descent of the Spirit at Pentecost.(Acts 2). Peter was the first one who healed in Christ’s name(Acts 3:1-6).

Peter was the first one to be tried and imprisoned for witnessing to Christ(Acts 4).

Even though Philip went outside of his role to take care of the Greek widows and instead went to Samaria to preach, they received the word, but Peter and John still needed to go and were the first of the Twelve to do so to give them the Holy Spirit by the laying on of (their) hands.

It was to Peter that the revelation came that Gentiles were to be baptized(Acts 10).

"And after there had been much debate, Peter rose and said to them, "Brethren, you know that in the early days God made choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.(Acts 15:7).
40.png
pritchard85:
But that is how you get Peter being Supreme; one verse.
I gave you more than half-a-dozen. I can also give you the facts of history and the witness of the early Church. But you’ll just deflect and obfuscate.
40.png
pritchard85:
I do read all of Scripture and it doesn’t equate to Catholicism. Just saying…
Then you either have a major problem with reading comprehension or you don’t really know what the Church is. The Bible presupposes the Church. The Bible is the Church’s book.

Take off your protestant colored glasses, re-read the Bible without your protestant prejudices, and then compare that to the Catechism and not some protestant, professional anti-catholic website(s).

Just saying…
 
I ask you to show me your proof and you accuse me of being hostile. This is so ridiculous. I’ve been asking you over and over again to show it. Instead of waiting for you to just admit that it isn’t there, I am going to ignore any of your further attempts to draw me into a condescending argument.🙂
 
pritcha said:
(Excerpt only)

However, we as Christian readers usually practice a sort of literary schizophrenia when reading the Gospels. We do not connect the “Kingdom of David” promised to Jesus with the “Kingdom of Heaven” that Jesus proclaims in his ministry:

Luke 1:31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. 32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there will be no end.”

Matt 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

However, already in the Old Testament, there was an awareness that the Kingdom of David was a manifestation of God’s own Kingdom:

2Chr. 13:8 “And now you think to withstand the kingdom of the LORD in the hand of the sons of David?

The Kingdom of Heaven, manifested on earth as the Church, is also the Kingdom of David, and in its structures it reflects that Davidic heritage.

This Old Testament background elucidates the Gospel reading, a controversial one whose meaning is hotly debated because of the importance of its implications:

Mt 16:13-20
Jesus went into the region of Caesarea Philippi and
he asked his disciples,
“Who do people say that the Son of Man is?”
They replied, “Some say John the Baptist, others Elijah,
still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
Simon Peter said in reply,
“You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
Jesus said to him in reply,
“Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah.
For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.
And so I say to you, you are Peter,
and upon this rock I will build my church,
and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven.
Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven;
and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
Then he strictly ordered his disciples
to tell no one that he was the Christ.

Isaiah 22 is clearly the background for the promise of the “keys to the Kingdom.” Aside from Judges 3:23-25, which has no thematic parallels, Isaiah 22 is the only passage of the Old Testament where the word “key” even occurs. The thematic parallels are strong: the promise to Eliakim concerning “opening” and “shutting” is repeated to Peter, although using the terms “binding” and “loosing.” “Binding” and “loosing” were technical terms in first century Judaism referring to the authority to decide matters of halakhah (lit. “the walk”, i.e. “the behavior” or “how one behaves”), that is, the practical application of divine law.

Jesus did not decide all matters of the application of divine law himself. Nor did he write down a book with the answers to all controversies in this area that would ever arise in the history of the Church. He did, however, invest Peter with the authority to make decisions in this regard.

Even some non-Catholic commentators (most notably, W.F. Albright, father of American biblical archeology and Old Testament studies) recognize that, in Matt 16, Jesus is investing Peter with role of royal steward in the Kingdom that Jesus is establishing.

The Church has always held that Peter’s authority—like the authority of the apostles in general—was passed down to his successors. Otherwise, passages like Matt 16:13-20 and others which speak to us of the authority of the apostles are simply matters of historical curiosity for us: “So Jesus invested Peter and the apostles with authority over the Church. After they died, however, Jesus left no provision for the governance of the Church, so now it is every believer for him- or herself.” This is the view I once held myself.

It implies that apparently Jesus didn’t recognize the continuing need for authoritative leadership in the Church. Maybe Jesus thought he was going to return before the apostles died (but he was mistaken). Or maybe he thought that while the Church was small, it would need strong and visible leadership, but in subsequent generations, when it spread all over the world to a host of cultures and a host of controversies would arise, there would no longer be the need for strong and visible leadership to maintain the Church’s unity and doctrine.

Let me voice my disagreement with the above-mentioned position. I do not think Jesus made a mistake about the timing of his return, nor that he did not foresee the continuing need for leadership in the Church. The succession of subsequent generations to the authority of the apostles is already visible in Scripture itself (Acts 6:1-6; Titus 1:5; 2 Tim 2:2; 1 Peter 5:1-2).

The Church was not mistaken in understanding Peter’s authority to be passed to his successors. So we see, already in the first or early second century, Clement of Rome exercising a spiritual authority over churches far away from his immediate geographical jurisdiction (see 1 Clement).

The priestly and paternal roles of the Royal Steward, Peter and his successors, is reflected in titles given to the Bishop of Rome: “pontifex maximus” (“greatest priest”) and “Papa” or “Pope,” meaning “Father.”

He continues to authoritatively “bind” and “loose,” making decisions of halakhah for the People of God. A pertinent modern example: how does divine law apply to physical and chemical contraceptives, which were not as widely available in previous centuries? Paul VI gave an authoritative halakhic decision: they are impermissible. The decision remains universally controversial, but Christians who will not accept it, I am afraid, will find themselves voluntarily extinguishing their own communities as the generations pass.
 
The theory of ‘development of doctrine’ is a nineteenth century rationalization (and an admission really) for the fact that Roman Catholic doctrine has been added to in the last ten centuries, as if that has been necessary.
Then you obviously do not understand true development of doctrine. When the apostles started out, they had no doctrine on the trinity, on the hypostatic union, etc. The doctrine on the Trinity and hypostatic union had to be hammered out at the councils. So there is a development of doctrine then. Development of doctrine is merely a deeper understanding of the basic tenets of Christianity.

Otherwise you are arguing for a static Church that never ever get any more enlightenment regarding the truth that she holds. The Holy Spirit did not abandon the Church after the 4th century.

As I have already pointed out, while the term may be new the practice was as old as the apostles.
That is not ‘development’, it is more like ‘accumulation’ of doctrine. The church has no business doing that. Stick with the original deposit of Apostolic Faith and leave the ‘opinions’ out of dogma, and stop making new doctrines out of ideas that the Apostolic churches have never known to be doctrines.
But dogma is precisely a set of opinions that the Church has declared dogma. The understanding we have of the Trinity and the two natures of Christ are musings that that councils have decreed as dogma.
It weakens the general credibility of the church in the public mind, divides Christians for no good purpose and abets the critical rejection of Christianity by modern sceptics.
What weakens the credibility of the Church in the public mind is when the Church falls into heresy. That is a sign that it is not guided by the Holy Spirit.

As for weakening the credibility in the public mind, the Catholic Church is global, the largest Christian group in the world.
We can see at least two new ones coming down the pike, and no one knows how many more you guys will declare in time. Your particular church couldn’t do that in the first millennium, because the bishop of Rome [indeed, no individual bishop anywhere, not even the real saint Peter]did not have such authority to proclaim dogmas in the first 18 centuries, and the western churches couldn’t dominate the Councils in the first ten.
And interestingly enough the western Church did not fall into heresy.

So we keep going back to my earlier statement. The fact of having fallen into heresy has stamped fear into the heart so faith stopped seeking understanding.
 
You are assuming that he will bother to read. I suppose stranger things have happened.
He has to be a kid, just wanting to troll.
Otherwise he would have answered the responses with more than one or two sentences.
This is where “texting” is leading us to. :rolleyes:😃
 
Then you obviously do not understand true development of doctrine. When the apostles started out, they had no doctrine on the trinity, on the hypostatic union, etc. The doctrine on the Trinity and hypostatic union had to be hammered out at the councils. So there is a development of doctrine then. Development of doctrine is merely a deeper understanding of the basic tenets of Christianity.

Otherwise you are arguing for a static Church that never ever get any more enlightenment regarding the truth that she holds. The Holy Spirit did not abandon the Church after the 4th century.

As I have already pointed out, while the term may be new the practice was as old as the apostles.

But dogma is precisely a set of opinions that the Church has declared dogma. The understanding we have of the Trinity and the two natures of Christ are musings that that councils have decreed as dogma.
What weakens the credibility of the Church in the public mind is when the Church falls into heresy. That is a sign that it is not guided by the Holy Spirit.

As for weakening the credibility in the public mind, the Catholic Church is global, the largest Christian group in the world.

And interestingly enough the western Church did not fall into heresy.

So we keep going back to my earlier statement. The fact of having fallen into heresy has stamped fear into the heart so faith stopped seeking understanding.
No, it means that the original Church had the fullness of truth already. Councils happened only when some section of the Church began to teach heresy, or what people thought might be heresy. How did they know it was heresy - because it did not seem to match up with the original deposit of faith.

They recognized questionable Trinitarian claims, for example, because they were not what was already recognized as a correct understanding - the understanding was already there. What the councils did was make sure everyone understood correctly what the potentially heretical statements were really trying to say, and then if they were really heretical, explain the doctrine in clear theological language in order to make the correct doctrine more clear and explicit is theological/philosophical language, and to exclude the heretical understanding. And the whole of the Church had to agree that the formulation reflected the deposit of faith.

This is by no means development of doctrine in the sense that Newman understood it, where there is further revelation of a sort about the truth of Church teachings. This became necessary as doctrines were developed that clearly were not what was understood and believed by the early Church. The other big differences are that unlike the earlier kind of explication and discussion of controversial ways of expressing Christian teaching, these new things did not come up as a result of fighting false teaching in the same way. And because of the structure of modern Catholicism, these ideas really can be imposed from the top-down, without the agreement of all, or a substantial majority, of bishops, and ultimately even the laity (who can always vote with their feet.)

It really isn’t that other people don’t understand the Catholic view of development of doctrine. It’s just that they think it is wrong.

You mentioned in another thread that you found CS Lewis comment that he couldn’t be Catholic because of the doctrines that they might proclaim a bit odd and hard to understand. What he was saying, I think, was that the whole idea of proclaiming new dogmas was a problem from his perspective - not the way that the Church is supposed to operate. It just isn’t how the Church ever understood itself, and the Catholic Church only changed its view when it was too late in the day to maintain the orthodox position.
 
The theory of ‘development of doctrine’ is a nineteenth century rationalization (and an admission really) for the fact that Roman Catholic doctrine has been added to in the last ten centuries, as if that has been necessary.

That is not ‘development’, it is more like ‘accumulation’ of doctrine.
This is not true–there has been no “accumulation” of doctrine.

Take this analogy re: development of doctrine:

It has been the “constant teaching” in our house that when the kids come home from school they are to put away their school supplies, keep the house picked up, clean themselves up; specifically this means: putting their shoes away, washing their hands, taking off their uniforms, finishing their chores, practicing their piano, etc etc etc.

Despite the fact that they have been doing this every school day for 2-11 years every once in a while we need to have a “family meeting” to pronounce, declare and define exactly who should be doing which job and how it is to be done. (Note: I try to ignore their incredulous looks that say, “What? We’re supposed to put away our shoes again this year?” or “What? You’ve never said that we had to take off our uniforms and hang them up!” )

At this council we recall what’s been done in the past, review the current norms and define again exactly what’s the expectation. Sometimes the kids complain that we are “making up new rules”, claiming we’ve “never done it this way before” when in actuality we are just pronouncing, declaring and defining a standard norm of our family.

Now, in later years it became clear, when my darling daughters were coming home and throwing their backpacks on the floor, that we needed to have a discussion: Ladies: HANG UP your backpacks!

Now, they could have looked at us and said, “This is a new development of doctrine! You’ve never stated before that we had to hang up our backpacks! You’re making up new rules.”

Nooooo…firstly, in the lower grades there were no backpacks, so it was a non-issue. Secondly, until you started throwing your backpacks on the floor when you entered the house there was no reason to make a solemn proclamation that this was not permissible.

[SIGN1]This was not the development of a new rule. Rather, it was an exposition, explanation and **development **of the **same **rule: when you come home from school you must put your school supplies away. [/SIGN1]
 
No, it means that the original Church had the fullness of truth already. Councils happened only when some section of the Church began to teach heresy, or what people thought might be heresy. How did they know it was heresy - because it did not seem to match up with the original deposit of faith.

They recognized questionable Trinitarian claims, for example, because they were not what was already recognized as a correct understanding - the understanding was already there.

What the councils did was make sure everyone understood correctly what the potentially heretical statements were really trying to say, and then if they were really heretical, explain the doctrine in clear theological language in order to make the correct doctrine more clear and explicit is theological/philosophical language, and to exclude the heretical understanding. And the whole of the Church had to agree that the formulation reflected the deposit of faith.
If the way it is formulated now was already there, then they would have been able to formulate that quick as a flash. But the councils hammered that out. The council itself had to debate and discuss to come to the precise formulation that Nicea came up with.

And another thing: it is one thing to know the truth, it is another to understand it more fully.

The one to first use the term Trinity was Tertullian. So you are saying that one man in the 3rd century can formulate and develop a doctrine but not the Church in the 20th century?
This is by no means development of doctrine in the sense that Newman understood it, where there is further revelation of a sort about the truth of Church teachings. This became necessary as doctrines were developed that clearly were not what was understood and believed by the early Church. The other big differences are that unlike the earlier kind of explication and discussion of controversial ways of expressing Christian teaching, these new things did not come up as a result of fighting false teaching in the same way.
So only those that arise from fighting heresy should be considered? One therefore cannot come to a deeper understanding of a doctrine or mystery unless there is a heresy that needed reining? :confused:
And because of the structure of modern Catholicism, these ideas really can be imposed from the top-down, without the agreement of all, or a substantial majority, of bishops, and ultimately even the laity (who can always vote with their feet.)
When has an idea been imposed from the top down? Also, why should the idea not be imposable from the top down if we believe that Christ did keep His promise to guide the Church into truth?
It really isn’t that other people don’t understand the Catholic view of development of doctrine. It’s just that they think it is wrong.
But the question is: is their opinion that it is wrong, right?
You mentioned in another thread that you found CS Lewis comment that he couldn’t be Catholic because of the doctrines that they might proclaim a bit odd and hard to understand. What he was saying, I think, was that the whole idea of proclaiming new dogmas was a problem from his perspective - not the way that the Church is supposed to operate. It just isn’t how the Church ever understood itself, and the Catholic Church only changed its view when it was too late in the day to maintain the orthodox position.
If you read in full what I had written (it was on this thread) then you would know that I also gave the reason why position the is untenable.

If the Church is who she says she is (he can accept all the dogmas that he knows so far) then obviously she is Christ’s Church, the one that has been promised to be guided into all truth. If she is not, then even with the ones that he accepts, he can’t be certain that they are true. He will accept what according to him is true. In the end that position makes him the magisterium.
 
If the way it is formulated now was already there, then they would have been able to formulate that quick as a flash. But the councils hammered that out. The council itself had to debate and discuss to come to the precise formulation that Nicea came up with.

And another thing: it is one thing to know the truth, it is another to understand it more fully.

No, it wouldn’t. Because first they had to carefully consider the heretical teaching and make sure they understood it, and that it was indeed a heresy. Then they had to come up with a specific, detailed theological refutation, at the same time they are essentially building a new theological language - and they don’t all speak the same language. And then in different places they are fighting different heresies, which means they are worried about different problems. And finally, they have to have consensus among the group - something that is always very difficult to achieve.
The one to first use the term Trinity was Tertullian. So you are saying that one man in the 3rd century can formulate and develop a doctrine but not the Church in the 20th century?
THat has been the model. The faith that the Apostles themselves taught, having been taught by Christ himself, was enough. He gave them everything we and they need to know to be Christians and to live the Christian life fully. We respond to heresies because they begin to confuse people about what the Church teaches.

It is ok for someone like Boethius or Bonaventure, or even Chesterton, to write books of theology, or to have pious practices, are for people to think that there is, say, a place called purgatory, if their ideas are not contradictory to the teaching of the Church. They may be helpful to some. You see this throughout the Church

It is very different to make them dogmas when they are not refuting a clear danger. Are we saying that what the Apostles taught on the subject is not enough? And there are dangers with this - it is very easy for something that is really a kind of metaphor to help becomes an impediment. We can see this in a small way in the idea of transubstantiation - here is a teaching that was very useful to describe a particular idea, using Aristotelian philosophical language. But for some time we have not lived in an era where such language is very useful for many, or can actually imply things that it wasn’t meant to. These days Catholics are much less dogmatic about what it means, but for a considerable period people were told they had to assent to it, to that language, to be Catholic.
When has an idea been imposed from the top down? Also, why should the idea not be imposable from the top down if we believe that Christ did keep His promise to guide the Church into truth?
Because the Church never worked from the top down - why change? You are begging the question though. If the question is whether the Catholic Church is really The Church, you can’t assume that it is true to make your point. Maybe the Orthodox are right. Maybe yothe idea of what it means to err is incorrect. If you assume the CC can’t err, then there is no point in even discussing the issue, they could declare a girafe Pope and it would be correct.

And it is only since the Catholic Church began to try to operate this way that you have many huge splits over dogmas and teachings. That is a red flag to many that maybe they have erred.
But the question is: is their opinion that it is wrong, right?
Well, yes. But that doesn’t mean you should assume they just don’t understand.
If you read in full what I had written (it was on this thread) then you would know that I also gave the reason why position the is untenable.
If the Church is who she says she is (he can accept all the dogmas that he knows so far) then obviously she is Christ’s Church, the one that has been promised to be guided into all truth. If she is not, then even with the ones that he accepts, he can’t be certain that they are true. He will accept what according to him is true. In the end that position makes him the magisterium.
No, because as important as the various dogmas is how the Catholic Church understands it’s own power and polity. The point is, he does think they have erred, considerably.

The “Own magesterium” comment is silly whenever people make it. Every Catholic is a Catholic because he thinks that CC is teaching true things and has authority to teach what it does - that is why he became or remained Catholic. If tomorrow it started teaching something that he or she really could not accept, or he became convinced the authority was not real, then he would leave. This is no different from members of all religions.
 
…And interestingly enough the western Church did not fall into heresy.

So we keep going back to my earlier statement. The fact of having fallen into heresy has stamped fear into the heart so faith stopped seeking understanding.
:confused:

The western church has been in heresy for nearly 1000 years. The longest running fall in church history.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top