Peter as the Rock

[PRmerger]

I just had a thought. We should not be eating the flesh of Christ on a holy day when abstaining from meat is required

Let me offer an analogy regarding authority:

Let’s say your parents tell you: you must go to bed at 8pm.

But then Uncle Christos comes to dinner and they tell you, 'You may stay up until 10pm tonight."

And on Christmas Eve they ask if you would like to attend Midnight Mass.

And on the 4th of July there will be fireworks so you may stay up until 9pm to view the celebration.

Would you have responded to your parents, “No, Mother and Father, I cannot stay up past 8pm. Remember, you told me your rules.”

:whacky:

Perhaps you are not familiar with how the authority of Holy Mother Church works? What she binds on earth is bound in heaven?

 

[ron77nyc]

Let me offer an analogy regarding authority:

Let’s say your parents tell you: you must go to bed at 8pm.

But then Uncle Christos comes to dinner and they tell you, 'You may stay up until 10pm tonight."

And on Christmas Eve they ask if you would like to attend Midnight Mass.

And on the 4th of July there will be fireworks so you may stay up until 9pm to view the celebration.

Would you have responded to your parents, “No, Mother and Father, I cannot stay up past 8pm. Remember, you told me your rules.”

It’s not the same thing. The Church hierarchy made some claims a long time ago that were not true such as only Catholics qualify for salvation, the pope is infallible and infallible proclamations are eternal and unchangeable.

I and I’m sure many others knew that God could save whoever He wanted to but when you tell people “I am infallible” and “What I say will never change” they’re going to hold you to it.

Perhaps you are not familiar with how the authority of Holy Mother Church works? What she binds on earth is bound in heaven?

So when the 12th - 20th century popes were sentencing all non-Catholics to eternal punishment do you think God was OK with that?

 

[ron77nyc]

Let me offer an analogy regarding authority:

Let’s say your parents tell you: you must go to bed at 8pm.

But then Uncle Christos comes to dinner and they tell you, 'You may stay up until 10pm tonight."

And on Christmas Eve they ask if you would like to attend Midnight Mass.

And on the 4th of July there will be fireworks so you may stay up until 9pm to view the celebration.

Would you have responded to your parents, “No, Mother and Father, I cannot stay up past 8pm. Remember, you told me your rules.”

:whacky:

It’s not the same thing. When you tell someone “I am infallible” and “Whatever I say now can never change” they’re going to hold you to it if you try to change it.

Perhaps you are not familiar with how the authority of Holy Mother Church works? What she binds on earth is bound in heaven?

So when the 12th – 20th century popes were condemning all non-Catholics to eternal punishment do you think God the Father was OK with that?

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

In reading the New Testement it seems painfully clear that we are saved by faith in Christ. However if you want some victory and peace in this life, you better have works to go with it. However I highly doubt any with true faith don’t also have works. They complement each other.

You are not far from the kingdom of God, my friend. May God bless and keep you.

 

[CopticChristian]

It could be a difference in our age. I am 59 and I was in high school in the 1960’s. Catholic education was much different then.

Yeah, I can understand. As an altar boy the mass was in Latin, I can still say the Confiteor in Latin, I remmember the bells, the incense, the High School with classes in Agustine and Aquinas. I knew of no Protestants with exception of a small 4 square church that was next to a park we went to.

Vatican I came and went. Vatican II while I was in High School. Kennedy was shot.

There was no Scott Hahn, no John Paul II, Karl Keating or Catholic Answers.

Yes. I understand I am 65 and things were different.

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

Yeah, I can understand. As an altar boy the mass was in Latin, I can still say the Confiteor in Latin, I remmember the bells, the incense, the High School with classes in Agustine and Aquinas. I knew of no Protestants with exception of a small 4 square church that was next to a park we went to.

Vatican I came and went. Vatican II while I was in High School. Kennedy was shot.

There was no Scott Hahn, no John Paul II, Karl Keating or Catholic Answers.

Yes. I understand I am 65 and things were different.

I wish I could have the experience of praying the Mass in Latin. There aren’t any parishes around where I live that offer the extraordinary form.

I wish I knew Latin.

I wish all Catholics knew Latin. It seems that there comes a time when sacred languages become so sacred that they become esoteric.

 

[PRmerger]

It’s not the same thing. The Church hierarchy made some claims a long time ago that were not true such as only Catholics qualify for salvation, the pope is infallible and infallible proclamations are eternal and unchangeable.

I and I’m sure many others knew that God could save whoever He wanted to but when you tell people “I am infallible” and “What I say will never change” they’re going to hold you to it.

So when the 12th - 20th century popes were sentencing all non-Catholics to eternal punishment do you think God was OK with that?

Wait a minute.

My analogy was in response to your comment “We should not be eating the flesh of Christ on a holy day when abstaining from meat is required”.

This has nothing to do with infallible statements that are “eternal and unchangeable”.

It has to do with the the Church binding and loosing. It has to do with discipline and the authority of the Church to make disciplinary and binding decisions.

Thus, if the Church says we cannot eat meat on Fridays in Lent yet also says we can take the Eucharist on Friday, then we can, well, take the Eucharist on Fridays during Lent.

(Not to mention your comment shows an abysmal understanding of the sacramental yet physical presence of Jesus in the Eucharist. The Eucharist is not meat. )

As far as the alleged change in infallible proclamations, I will address that in another post.

 

[PRmerger]

So when the 12th – 20th century popes were condemning all non-Catholics to eternal punishment do you think God the Father was OK with that?

Can you give an example of a pope who condemned a non-Catholic to hell? Name of the pope, please, and name of the non-Catholic, as well as the document where this is found.

My understanding is that the Church has never stated any individual is in hell.

 

[benedictus2]

Yes I read everything you wrote. Our works play an important part in our sanctification.
Not necessary-----I know the words of Jesus.

If you do, then why cite the Epistles (with the intent of showing that works are not necessary) when Christ was very clear about the importance of works.

As a matter of fact He was very clear about it when He said “not those who call me Lord, Lord but those who do the will of my Father who will enter the kingdom”

This is not the thread for faith vs works,

You’re right , it isn’t. Your comment below took it there.

It wasn’t until I heard the gospel preached by protestant ministers that I understood that my salvation was a gift and not something I deserved for doing good deeds such as going to mass and confession and trying not to sin.

 

[PRmerger]

It’s not the same thing. The Church hierarchy made some claims a long time ago that were not true such as only Catholics qualify for salvation, the pope is infallible and infallible proclamations are eternal and unchangeable.

These “long time ago” popes who made these proclamations were making them regarding Christianity. Christ is required for salvation.

That was said a “long time ago” and is still said today.

If a Muslim or Jew is saved, it is through Christ, the Eternal Logos.

Nothing has changed here.

 

[guanophore]

then why aren’t you orthodox?

From my reading of Pritchard’s posts, I suspect the same moral imperatives that pushed him out of Catholicism would be equally prohibitive with Orthodoxy.

 

[guanophore]

Then you had a false faith base on something else other than Jesus. The CC has always had problems and always will. And why? Because Jesus founded His church for sinners,not perfectionist. And the fact that you left also adds to problem because you do not help the situation by simply picking up and leaving Dodge City.

I think there is difficulty sometimes distinguishing between the Church, who is Holy and pure, from the fallible persons who are members of her. She is pure because she has Jesus as her Head, and the HS as her Soul. It is her divine elements that make her perfect and infallible.

The “problems”, therefore, belong to those seeking hospitalization for sinners. There have always been wolves among the sheep, and divisions, but they belong to the sinners practicing them, and not the Church herself. It is impossible for those with a deficient concept of “church” to grasp this. Since our separated brethren were cut off from the Apostolic Succession in the Reformation, they erroneously believe that the Church is only “the body of believers on earth”. This definition rejects the Church suffering, as well as the authority appointed by Christ. It also rejects the incarnational elements of the Church.

 

[BILL_PICK53]

I was discussing the Papacy with a Protestant friend, and the conversation went through the predictable stages. First, I explained Mt 16:18-19. Then, he used the argument that Petros and petra have different meanings, so it contrasts Peter (little rock) from Christ (the big rock). I explained to him that the meaning of the two words was the same in Koine Greek, which was the dialect around in Christ’s time. I added in that it would make no sense for Jesus to 1) call Peter blessed, and then 2) belittle him, and then finally 3)give him the keys to the kingdom of heaven. It took him a few days to get back to me, and I thought I was finally getting through to him. He talked to a friend of his who was a professor of ancient Greek, and he said the following:

“Petra is the femine noun, and this is what the debate stands around. It is the huge rock, and the foundation that Christ wanted to build his church on. According to Dr. Hall, feminine nouns in Greek refer to either a feminine object or person, or an abstract idea. Now because we know that Peter is not a feminine noun, and we also know that Jesus is not referring to a literal rock, this noun is abstract. It is referring to an abstract idea or thought of some sort. Dr. Hall said that the foundation of Christ church,and the rock in which he was going to build it on, was Peter’s confession of faith. A believers foundation is his confession of faith, the point of salvation; and this is exactly how Christ was going to build his church, with this foundation.”

He also said that in Mt 16:19 the Greek word for “you” is “soy”, which is the plural form of “you”. I don’t know Greek, so who can help me out with where these explanations fall short?

So far, the points I’m considering making are:

1. Why would Jesus rename Simon “Rock” if he was not really the rock, but just his profession of faith?
2. Jesus would have spoken this in Aramaic, and the original text of Matthew was likely Aramaic, and it would do away with the supposed gender issue of the nouns.

Let me know what you all think, especially if you’re familiar with Greek.

God bless,
Chris

OK

 

[ron77nyc]

Can you give an example of a pope who condemned a non-Catholic to hell? Name of the pope, please, and name of the non-Catholic, as well as the document where this is found.
My understanding is that the Church has never stated any individual is in hell.

I already did in post #250. Here it is again. Also keep in ming that the east west schism occurred in 1054 which created the Eastern Orthodox Church and in the 1500’s the Protestant Reformation happened so these 2 groups were excluded from salvation as well as anyone else who was not “subject to the Roman Pontiff.”

“There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)

“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)

“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)

“Whoever, therefore, is not united with it is not a member of it, nor does he communicate with its Head Who is Christ. No one is found in the one Church of Christ, and no one perseveres in it, unless he acknowledges and accepts obediently the supreme authority of St. Peter and his legitimate successors.” (Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos 1928)

 

[ron77nyc]

Wait a minute.

(Not to mention your comment shows an abysmal understanding of the sacramental yet physical presence of Jesus in the Eucharist. The Eucharist is not meat. )

As far as the alleged change in infallible proclamations, I will address that in another post.

My comment about the eucharist on holy days was facetious. I didn’t think anyone would take it seriously. I said it because again it was an example of what was taught when I received first holy communion as a child. The nuns told us not to bite it or allow it to touch our teeth because it cause pain to the body of Christ. At one time in church history it was real flesh.

 

[Mark_of_Ephesus]

Then you have not heard of Vincent of Lerins in the 5th century.

crossroadsinitiative.com/library_article/1048/Development_of_Doctrine_Vincent_of_Lerins.html

What? St. Vincent’s concept of “development” has nothing to do with adding new dogmas. He also writes :

“The Church of Christ, zealous and cautious guardian of the dogmas deposited with it, never changes any phase of them. It does not diminish them or add to them; it neither trims what seems necessary, nor grafts things superfluous; it neither gives up its own nor usurps what does not belong to it. But it devotes all its diligence to one aim: to treat tradition faithfully and wisely; to nurse and polish what from old times may have remained unshaped and unfinished; to consolidate and to strengthen what already was clear · and plain; and to guard what already was confirmed and defined. After all, what have the councils brought forth in their decrees but that what’ before was believed plainly and simply might from now on be believed more diligently; that what before was preached rather unconcernedly might be preached from now on more eagerly.”

 

[PRmerger]

My comment about the eucharist on holy days was facetious.

Of course. And ludicrous. I simply was providing a response. So the next time a pre-pubescent boy snickers, “Hey! I can’t take Communion today because the Church is prohibiting me from eating meat today!” you will be able to provide a response.

I didn’t think anyone would take it seriously. I said it because again it was an example of what was taught when I received first holy communion as a child. The nuns told us not to bite it or allow it to touch our teeth because it cause pain to the body of Christ. At one time in church history it was real flesh.

What the nuns taught you was, perhaps, an understanding that was fostered among the masses, but it was never a teaching by the Magisterium that to bit the host was to cause pain to the body of Christ.

At one time in Church history it was real flesh? Perhaps you mean that it is the Real Presence of Christ, Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity? But meat? No. One can certainly become One Flesh with the Divine Presence of Christ in the Eucharist on a day when we are fasting from meat.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I think there is difficulty sometimes distinguishing between the Church, who is Holy and pure, from the fallible persons who are members of her. She is pure because she has Jesus as her Head, and the HS as her Soul. It is her divine elements that make her perfect and infallible.

The “problems”, therefore, belong to those seeking hospitalization for sinners. There have always been wolves among the sheep, and divisions, but they belong to the sinners practicing them, and not the Church herself. It is impossible for those with a deficient concept of “church” to grasp this. Since our separated brethren were cut off from the Apostolic Succession in the Reformation, they erroneously believe that the Church is only “the body of believers on earth”. This definition rejects the Church suffering, as well as the authority appointed by Christ. It also rejects the incarnational elements of the Church.

Hospitalization for sinners? I love this thinking, its very accurate.

 

[PRmerger]

I already did in post #250. Here it is again. Also keep in ming that the east west schism occurred in 1054 which created the Eastern Orthodox Church and in the 1500’s the Protestant Reformation happened so these 2 groups were excluded from salvation as well as anyone else who was not “subject to the Roman Pontiff.”

“There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)

Amen! This has been the constant teaching of the Church. Extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)

“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)

“Whoever, therefore, is not united with it is not a member of it, nor does he communicate with its Head Who is Christ. No one is found in the one Church of Christ, and no one perseveres in it, unless he acknowledges and accepts obediently the supreme authority of St. Peter and his legitimate successors.” (Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos 1928)

Amen!

Nothing there is contradictory.

Vatican II simply provided an expository on how we are to understand who is part of this Church of Christ, and who may attain salvation in light of EENS.

 

[ron77nyc]

Amen! This has been the constant teaching of the Church. Extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
Amen!

Nothing there is contradictory.

Vatican II simply provided an expository on how we are to understand who is part of this Church of Christ, and who may attain salvation in light of EENS.

---

Here is the contradiction:
Lumen Gentium
.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.​

"Whoever, therefore, is not united with it is not a member of it, nor does he communicate with its Head Who is Christ. No one is found in the one Church of Christ, and no one perseveres in it, unless he acknowledges and accepts obediently the supreme authority of St. Peter and his legitimate successors." (Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos 1928)

“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)

“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)