Peter as the Rock

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How do you see a contradiction Ron? I see a further definition.

Some woman or man on earth, in the bush of Africa or elsewhere, may be a great individual by Biblical and the Catholic moral model. Knowing that God doesn’t desire to lose any Souls, why would they be condemned for their own lack of knowledge? They are not rejecting God or His teaching, they are in invincable ignorance.

Maybe you are hearing something different than I?

Peace
 
GaryTaylor said:
How do you see a contradiction Ron? I see a further definition.

Some woman or man on earth, in the bush of Africa or elsewhere, may be a great individual by Biblical and the Catholic moral model. Knowing that God doesn’t desire to lose any Souls, why would they be condemned for their own lack of knowledge? They are not rejecting God or His teaching, they are in invincable ignorance.

Maybe you are hearing something different than I?

Peace
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I agree with you but the Church was not teaching that before 1960. They were specifically saying a woman in the bush of Africa who was a good person was not going to have eternal life because she was not a baptized Roman Catholic.

Please show me what I’m missing in these statements.
“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)

“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her."
 
As recently as 1928 Pope Pius XI was telling us Protestants, Eastern Orthodox and Anglicans are not saved.

vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xi_enc_19280106_mortalium-animos_en.html

MORTALIUM ANIMOS
ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XI
ON RELIGIOUS UNITY

Given at Rome, at Saint Peter’s, on the 6th day of January, on the Feast of the Epiphany of Jesus Christ, our Lord, in the year 1928, and the sixth year of Our Pontificate.

"[21] For since the mystical body of Christ, in the same manner as His physical body, is one,[22] compacted and fitly joined together,[23] it were foolish and out of place to say that the mystical body is made up of members which are disunited and scattered abroad: whosoever therefore is not united with the body is no member of it, neither is he in communion with Christ its head.[24]
11. Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors. Did not the ancestors of those who are now entangled in the errors of Photius and the reformers, obey the Bishop of Rome, the chief shepherd of souls? Alas their children left the home of their fathers, but it did not fall to the ground and perish for ever, for it was supported by God. Let them therefore return to their common Father, who, forgetting the insults previously heaped on the Apostolic See, will receive them in the most loving fashion. For if, as they continually state, they long to be united with Us and ours, why do they not hasten to enter the Church, “the Mother and mistress of all Christ’s faithful”?[25] Let them hear Lactantius crying out: “The Catholic Church is alone in keeping the true worship. This is the fount of truth, this the house of Faith, this the temple of God: if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation. Let none delude himself with obstinate wrangling. For life and salvation are here concerned, which will be lost and entirely destroyed, unless their interests are carefully and assiduously kept in mind.”[26]
 
ron77nyc said:
I agree with you but the Church was not teaching that before 1960. They were specifically saying a woman in the bush of Africa who was a good person was not going to have eternal life because she was not a baptized Roman Catholic.

Please show me what I’m missing in these statements.
“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)

“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her."
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I don’t think you are missing anything in those statements. There’s probly hundreds more by the ECF and Saints also. However I’m thinking V-II and a few different ideas. First as I mention the thinking of V-II of ignorance as opposed to invincible ignorance, and a good example of this is the Thief on the Cross who shares paradise.

Trust me I grew up in V-I I understand the hard-line thinking. However we are still confronted with todays theology which has to be reconciled with yesterday.

In this thinking everyone on earth is Gods creation with no exception. I can’t reconcile in my mind how limits can be placed on this. However I strickly follow CC teaching so in this sense its outside my scope really to justify since I’m not ignorant of the Mystical Body.

But of course when we are talking Pagans, heretics etc, these are souls who chose to be outside the church, so then their definition of ignorance takes on a different meaning.

Apparently when the Mystical body of Christ is complete on Earth, which is a very long way off, considering Christians alone are not united within the One Holy Apostolic Church let alone everyone else. So as time moves closer to this reality then their will be greater significance to these teachings I would imagine.

Of course Baptism brings up another teaching with its ramifications.

Pope Pius IX states:

“It must likewise be held as certain that those who are affected by ignorance of the true religion, if it is invincible ignorance, are not subject to any guilt in this matter before the eyes of the Lord” (Singulari Quadem of December 9, 1854, Denzinger 1647).

Peace
 
In other words ignorance cannot be voluntary. Invincible Ignorance is also not a teaching that anyone will be saved, only that they “can” be saved. Which is the exact word used in Lumen Gentium above.

The teaching of Invincible Ignorance of the Catholic Church is in other words a judgment which is in Gods Hands. However, invincible ignorance is not a dogmatic teaching as far as I know.

Peace
 
ron77nyc said:

Here is the contradiction:
Lumen Gentium
.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.​

"Whoever, therefore, is not united with it is not a member of it, nor does he communicate with its Head Who is Christ. No one is found in the one Church of Christ, and no one perseveres in it, unless he acknowledges and accepts obediently the supreme authority of St. Peter and his legitimate successors." (Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos 1928)

“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)

“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)
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Again, there is nothing in the above statements that says that is contradictory.

Pagans cannot enter heaven unless they embrace Jesus.
Jews cannot enter heaven unless they embrace the Divine Word made Flesh.
Muslims cannot enter heaven unless they embrace the 2nd Person of the Trinity.
Atheists cannot enter heaven unless they embrace the Good Shepher.

Now, how and when above folks embrace the Eternal Logos prior to their Final Judgment is a mystery that has not yet been fully revealed by the Church.
 
ron77nyc said:
I agree with you but the Church was not teaching that before 1960. They were specifically saying a woman in the bush of Africa who was a good person was not going to have eternal life because she was not a baptized Roman Catholic.

Please show me what I’m missing in these statements.
“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)

“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her."
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Of course the woman in the bush of Africa is subject to the Roman Pontiff! Just like Mary is her mother, even if she is ignorant of this fact.

Mary is her mother. She is subject to the Roman Pontiff. And the degree to which she has been evangelized of such is the degree that she can make her decision for or against. Christ.

Now, can you please provide the names of those individuals these Popes have “condemned to eternal punishment”? (As you claimed here).

Again, it is my understanding that the Church has never declared anyone to be in hell, but if you have a source that contradicts this, please provide it here. In fact, is it not contrary to Catholic teaching to declare an individual is in hell?
 
PRmerger said:
Now, can you please provide the names of those individuals these Popes have “condemned to eternal punishment”? (As you claimed here).
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It would be impossible for me to give all the names but from what this says all Eastern Orthodox Christians who lived and died as Orthodox Christians don’t have salvation.

“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)

“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her;
(Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)

According to this; all Protestants, Mormons, Jews, Muslims etc. are separated from Christ. It also says no one can communicate with Christ ouside the Catholic Church so there goes the woman in Africa.

“Whoever, therefore, is not united with it is not a member of it, nor does he communicate with its Head Who is Christ. No one is found in the one Church of Christ, and no one perseveres in it, unless he acknowledges and accepts obediently the supreme authority of St. Peter and his legitimate successors.” (Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos 1928)
 
PRmerger said:
Again, it is my understanding that the Church has never declared anyone to be in hell, but if you have a source that contradicts this, please provide it here. In fact, is it not contrary to Catholic teaching to declare an individual is in hell?
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We can include all Jews in this thought:
Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra: “Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity … But it is necessary for eternal salvation that he faithfully believe also in the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ … the Son of God is God and man … – This is the Catholic faith; unless each one believes this faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.”

**In here he doesn’t even care about baptism of desire. If you’re not Catholic - too bad for you. You’re goin’ down.:eek:
**Cantate Domino (1441)
“No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.”
 
PRmerger said:
Again, there is nothing in the above statements that says that is contradictory.

Pagans cannot enter heaven unless they embrace Jesus.
Jews cannot enter heaven unless they embrace the Divine Word made Flesh.
Muslims cannot enter heaven unless they embrace the 2nd Person of the Trinity.
Atheists cannot enter heaven unless they embrace the Good Shepher.

Now, how and when above folks embrace the Eternal Logos prior to their Final Judgment is a mystery that has not yet been fully revealed by the Church.
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Pope Eugene says you have to convert to Catholicism before the end of your life.

“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; ” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)
 
ron77nyc said:
We can include all Jews in this thought:
Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra: “Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity … But it is necessary for eternal salvation that he faithfully believe also in the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ … the Son of God is God and man . This is the Catholic faith; unless each one believes this faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.”
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ron77nyc said:
Pope Eugene says you have to convert to Catholicism before the end of your life.

“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; ” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)
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Okay.

I haven’t read anything that says that you can convert to Catholicism* after* the end of one’s life (I had initially thought that this was not addressed and, as such, was a mystery. But thanks to your quote above we now know that one must convert to Catholicism before the end of one’s life) so where’s the contradiction?
 
ron77nyc said:
It would be impossible for me to give all the names
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Heh. 😃

Actually, ron, if you’re going to have any degree of integrity, what you have to say is, “It would be impossible for me to give any names” at all. Isn’t that true? The Church has never declared a single person to be in hell?
 
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ron77nyc:
Cantate Domino (1441)
“No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.”

Can you provide an online source for this quote, ron?

I did a search and this is what came up.

Forgive my skepticism, but it may be that some non-Catholic charlatan imagined this fanciful quote and suddenly there’s lots of folks quoting this guy and attributing it to a Church document. In fact, I only found this source which is a Feeney-esque website, so it must be dismissed.

So if you don’t mind, primary source please for this Cantate Domino (and why is it talking about singing to the Lord while discussing martyrs and outpouring of blood? :eek:)
 
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ron77nyc:
I agree with you but the Church was not teaching that before 1960. They were specifically saying a woman in the bush of Africa who was a good person was not going to have eternal life because she was not a baptized Roman Catholic.

Please show me what I’m missing in these statements.
“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)

“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her."
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You are missing the fact that every saved person is subject to the Roman Pontiff. The successor of Peter was appointed to feed and care for the flock. They are under his care and feeding whether they know it, like it, or not. They may be like you - a rebellious subject - but a subject just the same.

We (humans) are not qualified to judge the state of another’s soul. We cannot know if they are joined to God in Christ at death. There are mystical (not visible to us) ways that God joins people to His One Body, the Church. We must assume, if they are not visibly joined, that they are in need of evangelism. Only God knows those who are His.

What we know for sure is that there is only one name under heaven by which we may be saved, and that He has established only One Church, and that all who are members of Him are members of that One Church. 👍

It seems what you are missing is flexibility of thought. 🤷
 
ron77nyc said:
It would be impossible for me to give all the names but from what this says all Eastern Orthodox Christians who lived and died as Orthodox Christians don’t have salvation.

“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)

“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her;
(Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)

According to this; all Protestants, Mormons, Jews, Muslims etc. are separated from Christ. It also says no one can communicate with Christ ouside the Catholic Church so there goes the woman in Africa.

“Whoever, therefore, is not united with it is not a member of it, nor does he communicate with its Head Who is Christ. No one is found in the one Church of Christ, and no one perseveres in it, unless he acknowledges and accepts obediently the supreme authority of St. Peter and his legitimate successors.” (Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos 1928)
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Also, could you please provide the original sources that you cut and pasted the above quotes? I’d like to read them myself.
 
PRmerger said:
Heh. 😃

Actually, ron, if you’re going to have any degree of integrity, what you have to say is, “It would be impossible for me to give any names” at all. Isn’t that true? The Church has never declared a single person to be in hell?
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I’m really being very honest. I don’t know the names of any people in the religions that were not included in salvation by Pope Eugene. I left out Buddhism, Hinduism, Confucianism and Native American Indians. I know some Jewish kids that I went to grammar school with but I don’t know if they died. We didn’t keep in touch.
 
ron77nyc said:
I’m really being very honest. I don’t know the names of any people in the religions that were not included in salvation by Pope Eugene. I left out Buddhism, Hinduism, Confucianism and Native American Indians. I know some Jewish kids that I went to grammar school with but I don’t know if they died. We didn’t keep in touch.
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Exactly. Not a single name!

The Catholic Church has never declared anyone to be in hell.
 
guanophore said:
You are missing the fact that every saved person is subject to the Roman Pontiff. The successor of Peter was appointed to feed and care for the flock. They are under his care and feeding whether they know it, like it, or not. They may be like you - a rebellious subject - but a subject just the same.

We (humans) are not qualified to judge the state of another’s soul. We cannot know if they are joined to God in Christ at death.
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I’m not missing the point. I agree with everything you are saying. I do not accept the old school mentality. My only purpose in bringing these quotes up is to show the difference in teaching between then and now.
There are mystical (not visible to us) ways that God joins people to His One Body, the Church. We must assume, if they are not visibly joined, that they are in need of evangelism. Only God knows those who are His.
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This mystical body stuff would have been a laugh to the popes I quoted. You had to convert before you died or you were out.

If I were inflexible or rebellious I would join the sedevacantists.
 
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