Peter as the Rock

[choliks]

Matthew 16:17-18: "And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jonah: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father who is in heaven.

And I also say unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it."

If you read Matt 16:18 in conjunction with the previous verse an alternate, equally rational interpretation emerges. Flesh and blood does not reveal but only our Father who is in heaven. It is upon this truth that Jesus will build his church - the truth that Christ is revealed not by flesh and blood, but by the Father alone.

If i may… the problem here is that the key event of Jesus renaming Simon Bar-jonah to Peter, which also means cephas or rock, is left out. If we’re going to follow what you said, then what Jesus did means nothing.

 

[guanophore]

Yes, the apostles and prophets are the foundation built upon the Bedrock which is Christ.  I fail to see any dichotomy in that.  The Church was built upon the testimony and witness of the apostles and prophets, but they would have no testimony without their belief in Jesus Christ.  That is not going 'round and round'.  I cannot escape the fact that all spiritual truth rests upon Jesus and no other.

I think your theology is a little bit askew, Pure. Jesus is the Cornerstone. that is the stone against which all the others are lined up to keep the foundation straight. You are right, there is no dichotomy between the Cornerstone, and the foundation stones that are grafted into it. But then you depart from Scripture. Scripture does not say that the Church is built upon “testimony”, but upon the PERSONS - the Aposltes and Prophets themselves. You are right that they would have no testimony apart from their faith, but equally, their faith cannot be separated from there personhood.

Jesus chose to build His Church upon PEOPLE. He chose to have “others” upon which He rested His One Flock. To say “and no other” is to deny the Truth in the Scriptures, that He founded a Church, and that this Church is the pillar and foundation of the Truth. He did not build on a book, but upon people – “others”.

Jesus Christ is The Living Stone, we are living stones. Of course, you see the difference. Similarly, He is the Vine and I am in Him but that does not make me the Vine; I am still a branch. And, He is the Potter, I am the clay.

Yes, but all these illustrations demonstrate that we, as people, are grounded and formed by Him to do His work in the world. He has chosen to manifest HImself to the world through the Church.

My only difficulty with Peter as The Rock is that by giving him that honor and acclaim, it diminishes Jesus and all that He is.  The dichotomy I see is that both Peter and Jesus cannot simultaneously be THE ROCK.  (emphasis only - not shouting)   I guess I am rising to the defense of Jesus (Who needs no defense from little ole me) but, nevertheless, it disturbs me to think that His honor, sovereignty, and incomparable worth are threatened by another - especially one of His own followers.  You will probably say, "No, that is not what we are doing."  So I am left scratching my head trying to figure out where exactly you are coming from on this issue.

God is not diminished when He manifests Himself through people. In making Moses the deliverer for the Israelites, He was not diminished. Jesus would not have renamed Simon bar Jonah “Cephas” if it was somehow diminishing. Anyone God grafts into HImself becomes a glory to Him, as He works through their lives to manifest Himself. Peter writes about this:

1 Peter 2:9-10

9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s own people, that you may declare the wonderful deeds of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. 10 Once you were no people but now you are God’s people; once you had not received mercy but now you have received mercy.

We are (because of the work of God in us) that we may declare His glory. God made Peter a Rock, first in name, then in character, so that he could become part of the foundation of His One Church.

  I believe that Peter would agree with John the Baptist when he said, "I must decrease that He may increase."  So, you see, when I read the posts on this thread, and saw that Peter was promoted as pre-eminent, and it was all about his authority, rule, and power, well, red flags went up for me.  Maybe you can rationalize how Peter and Jesus both can be The Rock; I simply cannot.  Notice I did not say 'a rock' but rather 'The Rock' which is the way, I believe, the Catholic Church regards him.  Finally, Jesus Christ is the same, yesterday, today, and forever.  There is no substitute for Him, nor any need for one.

Yes, absolutely we see in Peter’s letters this humility. Peter was made pre-eminient, give authority, rule and the responsibility to care and feed the flock. He exercised these gifts and responsibiliities with the utmost humility, just as Jesus taught:

**Mark 10:42-45
42 And Jesus called them to him and said to them, “You know that those who are supposed to rule over the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them. 43 But it shall not be so among you; but whoever would be great among you must be your servant, 44 and whoever would be first among you must be slave of all. 45 For the Son of man also came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
**

At the end of his life, when he learned he was to be crucified, he did not believe himself worthy to die as his Lord, so asked to be crucified upside down.

 

[PRmerger]

I have others but I’ll have to look them up.

What’s taking so long??

I see on your Profile that you are currently searching in a thread from 2009? Is that the last time you posted apologia in defense of Catholicism?

 

[ron77nyc]

Right.

Please do.

This is a thread called “Re: Salvation by faith alone is TWO heresies, not one.”
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=348643&page=76
DLClark is a non-Catholic who defends “faith alone.”

**Originally Posted by DLClark **showthread.php?p=5445609 - post5445609showthread.php?p=5445609 - post5445609
If faith come by hearing the Word of God will a person be saved if he believes on Christ. Acts 16:31 says he will. Is this passage correct then?

Here is my response: Post#1134
Yes…when you believe you are saved. That does not mean “once saved always saved” or " faith alone." It means you are in a covenant with God much like being in a marriage and being in a covenant with your wife or husband. If you don’t live up to your part of the agreement the other party is not obligated to live up to their’s. You can take advantage of God and still be forgiven by His generosity but He does not have to forgive you. If you continue in disobedience He will not continue to forgive.

 

[guanophore]

Matthew 16:17-18: "And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jonah: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father who is in heaven.

And I also say unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it."

If you read Matt 16:18 in conjunction with the previous verse an alternate, equally rational interpretation emerges. Flesh and blood does not reveal but only our Father who is in heaven. It is upon this truth that Jesus will build his church - the truth that Christ is revealed not by flesh and blood, but by the Father alone.

This does not explain why the Father chose Peter, and why Jesus renamed Peter, and told Peter that upon this Rock, He would build His Church. What is so difficult about Peter being a Rock? What would have to change if you accepted what the Apostles believed, and taught their successors?

If we look further at Matthew 18:18:

"Verily I say unto you, what things soever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and what things soever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Again I say unto you, that if two of you shall agree on earth as touching anything that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father who is in heaven."
.
We see that the power to bind and loosen is given to all who follow Jesus, the Christ

“We” see no such thing. The power to bind and loose is legislative/governing power. It was given to the shepherds of the Church. Once people appoint themselves as their own shepherds, they no longer feel a need to submit to any authority appointed by Christ. Jesus established authority over His Church.

 

[PRmerger]

This is a thread called “Re: Salvation by faith alone is TWO heresies, not one.”
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=348643&page=76
DLClark is a non-Catholic who defends “faith alone.”

**Originally Posted by DLClark **showthread.php?p=5445609 - post5445609showthread.php?p=5445609 - post5445609
If faith come by hearing the Word of God will a person be saved if he believes on Christ. Acts 16:31 says he will. Is this passage correct then?

Here is my response: Post#1134
Yes…when you believe you are saved. That does not mean “once saved always saved” or " faith alone." It means you are in a covenant with God much like being in a marriage and being in a covenant with your wife or husband. If you don’t live up to your part of the agreement the other party is not obligated to live up to their’s. You can take advantage of God and still be forgiven by His generosity but He does not have to forgive you. If you continue in disobedience. He will not continue to forgive.

Firstly, ron, this is incorrect Catholic teaching. We are not “saved” when we believe. We are saved by the grace of God through baptism and through being grafted in Christ through His Church and the sacraments.

Secondly, it is curious that you would use this thread (from 2009) as evidence of your being a supporter of Catholic teaching.

Here’s some examples of your posts there which do not uphold and support the Church or her teachings; (as the thread is now closed, links cannot be published).

Originally Posted by ron77nyc #1136
That heresy would have never happened if the Church was preaching the gospel clearly.

And a blatant admission that you do wish to undermine Catholic teaching:

Originally Posted by ron77nyc # 1158 I wasn’t using it to undermine papal infallibility. I use “no salvation outside the church” when I want to do that.

And that you don’t intend to offer apologia:

Originally Posted by ron77nyc #1193 I don’t claim to represent the teachings of the Church. You, tqualey and Lampo represent the teachings of the Church.

And many posters on that thread repeatedly commented on your lack of profession of the teachings of the Church and misrepresentation of doctrine/dogma:

Originally Posted by estesbob #1144
As has been show repeatedly what you say you learned in School does not reflect the teachings on the Church at all

Originally Posted by estesbob #1175 ll let others in the thread judge who has consistently misrepresented the teachings of the Church

Originally Posted by Lampo # 1184 Would it be safe to say that you left the Catholic Church? That you no longer receive the sacraments or attend Mass? You call yourself Catholic because you were raised Catholic? In fact, you are a “cultural Catholic” and a “cafeteria Catholic”

Originally Posted by Lampo #1194
But you are doing just that by calling yourself Catholic and then espousing your beliefs that are in direct opposition of Catholic teaching.

Originally Posted by estesbob #1195Actually you do-For starters you misrepresented the Churchs Teachings on No Salvation Outside the Church at claimed the Baltimore Cathecism taught things it did not.

 

[adrift]

It could be a difference in our age. I am 59 and I was in high school in the 1960’s. Catholic education was much different then.

Was it? I am 63 I was in high school in the 60’s. My experience is not the same as yours. However, I have heard classmates claim the same thing. I wonder where were they in the classroom when I heard it?

 

[guanophore]

Was it? I am 63 I was in high school in the 60’s. My experience is not the same as yours. However, I have heard classmates claim the same thing. I wonder where were they in the classroom when I heard it?

Some of us suffered some abysmal catechesis during those years.

 

[ron77nyc]

If you do not, you will be reported to the mods. For there are many here who are not fully formed in their faith, and when they see that a “Catholic” is offering ostensibly Catholic truth, yet it is actually lies, this causes great harm to the Body of Christ.

I’ve been trying to get off this website for a long time and they keep sending me emails. I will keep trying.

 

[guanophore]

I’ve been trying to get off this website for a long time and they keep sending me emails. I will keep trying.

No one is saying you have to leave, Ron. We are all praying that you will still come to the knowledge of the Truth.

All we are asking is that you refrain from misrepresenting yourself. Your theology is clearly not Catholic, so claiming you are Catholic is disingenuous and misleading to others who come here for Catholic Answers.

You can go to your profile and change the settings so you don’t get emails. While you are there, you can change your affiliation.

 

[tskrobacz]

This does not explain why the Father chose Peter, and why Jesus renamed Peter, and told Peter that upon this Rock, He would build His Church. What is so difficult about Peter being a Rock? What would have to change if you accepted what the Apostles believed, and taught their successors?

It is not difficult that Peter is a rock…each of us that follow Christ are also Rocks in the building of His church. Prior to Jesus, society was about building temples that people could go in to find God. After Jesus, society is about going in the temple of your body to find the Christ to bring out into the world.

“We” see no such thing. The power to bind and loose is legislative/governing power. It was given to the shepherds of the Church. Once people appoint themselves as their own shepherds, they no longer feel a need to submit to any authority appointed by Christ. Jesus established authority over His Church.

The power to bind and loose is given in Matthew 18:18 to all that follow Christ. The original word for Church means Tent or gathering place which Jesus clearly says is wherever 2 or more are gathered in his name…

 

[GaryTaylor]

It is not difficult that Peter is a rock…each of us that follow Christ are also Rocks in the building of His church. Prior to Jesus, society was about building temples that people could go in to find God. After Jesus, society is about going in the temple of your body to find the Christ to bring out into the world.

You have the same authority as St Peter? How so from Scripture, I don’t see this, can you elaborate?

The power to bind and loose is given in Matthew 18:18 to all that follow Christ. The original word for Church means Tent or gathering place which Jesus clearly says is wherever 2 or more are gathered in his name

The key word here you mention is “ALL” that doesn’t appear in Matthew “PETER THE ROCK” correctly “PETER THE ROCK” in Bible is Matthew 16:13-20…Those are the verse’s of “Peter the Rock”. And there is no “ALL” there. There is only a “YOU” and the “YOU” is St. Peter.

This is the context we are talking about with “Peter the Rock”. You seem to want to discuss something different.

Peace

 

[tskrobacz]

You have the same authority as St Peter? How so from Scripture, I don’t see this, can you elaborate?

Indeed - as per Matthew 18:18 - why is it we, as Catholics, always ignore that the same power that Peter has to bind and loose we indeed all have…AND the responsibility that goes with it.

The key word here you mention is “ALL” that doesn’t appear in Matthew “PETER THE ROCK” correctly “PETER THE ROCK” in Bible is Matthew 16:13-20…Those are the verse’s of “Peter the Rock”. And there is no “ALL” there. There is only a “YOU” and the “YOU” is St. Peter.

This is the context we are talking about with “Peter the Rock”. You seem to want to discuss something different.

Peace

ALL is the reference to Matthew 18:18.

 

[JustaServant]

Indeed - as per Matthew 18:18 - why is it we, as Catholics, always ignore that the same power that Peter has to bind and loose we indeed all have…AND the responsibility that goes with it.

The Sacramental foundation of Confession is about our relationship to a Holy and just God. That foundation is indeed found in that passage, and has been confirmed through the teaching of the Church for 2000 years.

John Chrysostom:

Priests have received a power which God has given neither to angels nor to archangels. It was said to them: “Whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose, shall be loosed.” Temporal rulers have indeed the power of binding: but they can only bind the body. Priests, in contrast, can bind with a bond which pertains to the soul itself and transcends the very heavens. Did [God] not give them all the powers of heaven? “Whose sins you shall forgive,” he says, “they are forgiven them; whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.” The Father has given all judgment to the Son. And now I see the Son placing all this power in the hands of men [Matt. 10:40; John 20:21-23]. They are raised to this dignity as if they were already gathered up to heaven (The Priesthood 3:5 [A.D. 387]).

 

[tskrobacz]

Can you give an example of a Christian “binding” something, and an example of a Christian “loosening” something, as you understand this text?

In Matthew 18:18 we learn that God is willing to go along with US, his followers, tightening and relaxing the law. The same authority he gives Peter in Matthew 16:19 he gives to all of us

When we bind people up, refuse to forgive, legalistically judge and control each other we bind them up in the very name of God…when we forgive and let go and relax our demands on each other Jesus says he will honor that too.

Our forgiveness is God’s forgiveness…our controlling each other by judgements and accusations become the very binding up of God. Amazing authority and amazing power that we must all use with great care. As God tells us in Genesis 1:28 we are to have dominion over the earth…Jesus clearly affirms that we each have the authority and responsibility to respond to God’s directive.

 

[PRmerger]

In Matthew 18:18 we learn that God is willing to go along with US, his followers, tightening and relaxing the law. The same authority he gives Peter in Matthew 16:19 he gives to all of us

When we bind people up, refuse to forgive, legalistically judge and control each other we bind them up in the very name of God…when we forgive and let go and relax our demands on each other Jesus says he will honor that too.

LOL! Jesus gives us, Christians, the authority to “refuse to forgive”???

:whacky:

This kind of thinking is what results from separating your interpretation of the Scriptures from that of the faith that provided you with these Scriptures.

Now you are saying that we been given authority to bind people up–something which is sooooo contrary to the Gospel message.

 

[PRmerger]

I’ve been trying to get off this website for a long time and they keep sending me emails. I will keep trying.

Is this the ron77nyc equivalent of The Godfather’s “Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!”

You really are positing that emails have some sort of compulsory nature to them? Emails? Really?

At any rate, no on is asking you to leave. Rather, you need to be here to receive good Catholic catechesis, because, clearly, you received none in your childhood and this dismal understanding of the Truth persists into your adulthood.

What I requested is not that you remove yourself from the CAFs, but that you “**remove the designation of Catholic from your profile, **as you are causing scandal. By your own admission you are here to undermine Catholic teaching.”

 

[guanophore]

It is not difficult that Peter is a rock…each of us that follow Christ are also Rocks in the building of His church. Prior to Jesus, society was about building temples that people could go in to find God. After Jesus, society is about going in the temple of your body to find the Christ to bring out into the world.

Where did you find this in the Bible?

What is a “society”?

Do you think “society” looks for Jesus in their physical bodies?

 The power to bind and loose is given in Matthew 18:18 to all that follow Christ.

Can you show how you think this verse is directed at you?

Do you think this verse is directed at you, just like the one about binding and loosing?

Acts 5:9
How is it that you have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? Hark, the feet of those that have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out."

If not, why not?

The original word for Church means Tent or gathering place which Jesus clearly says is wherever 2 or more are gathered in his name....

So, when Jesus says He will build His Church, you think he means to “build” a tent or a gathering place?

Do you think Jesus appointed any authority in His Church?

 

[guanophore]

In Matthew 18:18 we learn that God is willing to go along with US, his followers, tightening and relaxing the law. The same authority he gives Peter in Matthew 16:19 he gives to all of us

When we bind people up, refuse to forgive, legalistically judge and control each other we bind them up in the very name of God…when we forgive and let go and relax our demands on each other Jesus says he will honor that too.

Our forgiveness is God’s forgiveness…our controlling each other by judgements and accusations become the very binding up of God. Amazing authority and amazing power that we must all use with great care. As God tells us in Genesis 1:28 we are to have dominion over the earth…Jesus clearly affirms that we each have the authority and responsibility to respond to God’s directive.

Refusing to forgive someone has a binding effect only on the one holding the resentment.

 

[tskrobacz]

LOL! Jesus gives us, Christians, the authority to “refuse to forgive”???

:whacky:

This kind of thinking is what results from separating your interpretation of the Scriptures from that of the faith that provided you with these Scriptures.

Now you are saying that we been given authority to bind people up–something which is sooooo contrary to the Gospel message.

Perhaps you misread? I wrote WHEN WE REFUSE TO FORGIVE…it is not authority given to us…it is us exercising our self will that binds people up as it is now for them to discern if our refusal is from self or from God.