Peter Kreeft - One True Church (Catholic and Protestant)

[lilypadrees]

I disagree. We’re fine the way we are - Catholic. If I wanted to be in a church that was more Protestant, I would have remained in any of the Protestant churches I attended over the years.

 

[Dovekin]

I disagree. St Paul did advocate “becoming a pagan” in a certain sense:

Although I am free in regard to all, I have made myself a slave to all so as to win over as many as possible.
To the Jews I became like a Jew to win over Jews;
to those under the law I became like one under the law—though I myself am not under the law—to win over those under the law.
To those outside the law I became like one outside the law—though I am not outside God’s law but within the law of Christ—to win over those outside the law.
To the weak I became weak, to win over the weak.
I have become all things to all, to save at least some.
All this I do for the sake of the gospel, so that I too may have a share in it.
1 Cor 9:19-23

 

[StephenBales]

Huh.
While I can’t admit I’ve completely reversed my opinion, I must admit, I hadn’t considered that passage. And it kinda floored me.

After re-reading the article, and my own posts, I think I’m reconsidering my stance. Perhaps I was speaking from some mild contempt for the tradition I escaped from.
What I said in my first post is true, but I may’ve been exaggerating. The article did say explicitly not to contradict doctrine. What I was arguing for—building communities warmly—was, perhaps, a distinction without a difference from what I was arguing against—actually becoming Protestant.

Though I still deny that the Church needs to change at all, be it more Buddhist or more Protestant, I agree that individual parishes ought to be warmer, and spend more time building community. At the same time, however, I can’t say I’ve ever felt more welcome at another ecclesial community than at my current Catholic church, and I cannot then criticize other parishes; I’ve only ever known the one!

And I think there’s a particular qualifier in the passage you quoted: “…to save at least some.” The end goal of St. Paul’s flexible evangelism was still to win people over to the Catholic faith, never to make it merely easy for them to come. After all, he was using the good in their doctrines to show them a still more excellent way than the faith of their fathers.

In short, I have not changed my mind; St. Paul’s ultimate goal was always to rescue people from that which they were brought up in, not to make people feel at home. While a sense of community and belonging is deeply important, that is something that is ultimately not completed by small-c culture, but by the internalization of the doctrines and beliefs of the Church, becoming fully united to it, the Mystical body of Christ. This is the ultimate sense of community and belonging, and is only supplemented and not fomented by how warm a parish is.

 

[on_the_hill]

Protestants sure have a lot fewer rules to follow, that’s for sure.

And I wonder…people practicing (Roman) Catholicism have a tendency to get caught up in rubrics, protocols, obligations, specificity, rules, regulations, you name it. It can be overwhelming to the point that a person’s emphasis becomes less on God and more on making sure that the rubrics, protocols, obligations, etc. are followed properly.

An attraction of Protestantism is that, for the post part, they throw all of that out the window.

And when you think about it–what’s more important? Faithfully following what God wants people to do, or faithfully following rubrics and traditions laid down by the clerics?

I think, for example, that God would be more happy if I fed the hungry than upset if I ate meat on Ash Wednesday. Does God really care if I fast? I sure hope not. But I do believe with all my heart that God cares if I care for my brothers and sisters here on Earth.

 

[Dovekin]

I cannot speak for Peter Kreeft, about whom I know little. But I never took his remarks to mean we become less Catholic. We, as Catholics, can be more welcoming. We do not become less Catholic by becoming more Protestant. We do not become less Catholic by “realiz[ing] the radical insufficiency of this changeable world” though we may become more Buddhist.

The irony here is that this is what “catholic” means, that all are called to the Church and the gifts given to one belong to all. Revering the insights of Buddhists means making room in the Church for those gifts. For me, that is what catholic means. It is often a struggle to keep to that ideal.

 

[Justin_Mary]

While a sense of community and belonging is deeply important, that is something that is ultimately not completed by small-c culture, but by the internalization of the doctrines and beliefs of the Church, becoming fully united to it, the Mystical body of Christ. This is the ultimate sense of community and belonging, and is only supplemented and not fomented by how warm a parish is.

Like you I haven’t been to too many parishes, but I can’t ever remember one that wasn’t welcoming. Every parish I’ve been to had a social hall where people go for fellowship after Mass. Is that not the case at every parish?

I know there is a mass exodus after Mass & most people go their separate ways. But still, a lot of people left in the social hall.

& I just found out today my parish (I’m relatively new here) has over 80 active ministries. & isn’t that what it’s about? Service.

 

[Justin_Mary]

I think, for example, that God would be more happy if I fed the hungry than upset if I ate meat on Ash Wednesday. Does God really care if I fast? I sure hope not. But I do believe with all my heart that God cares if I care for my brothers and sisters here on Earth.

No offense, but I think you’re missing the point of the fast, abstaining from meat & those reasons we should do those things are the reasons caring for our brothers & sisters here on earth becomes more than a human act.

With our Catholic faith it is not one or the other, but all of it put together. The whole (wo)man. A living stone built into His Church.

 

[Elf01]

Like you I haven’t been to too many parishes, but I can’t ever remember one that wasn’t welcoming. Every parish I’ve been to had a social hall where people go for fellowship after Mass. Is that not the case at every parish?

Mine doean’t. It probably depends on the location.

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

Ive been inspired to go deeper into my own faith (Catholic) by the example of devout Protestants and Jews I’ve known.

 

[Genesis315]

“Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you–wait, on second, thought, just baptize and forget the rest.”
#ThingsJesusNeverSaid

Baptism begins the incorporation into Christ and the Church, creates an indestructible bond with the Church, and was instituted to lead one to full membership, but alone it does not make one a member. From the Vatican II decree on ecumenism:

Baptism therefore establishes a sacramental bond of unity which links all who have been reborn by it. But of itself Baptism is only a beginning, an inauguration wholly directed toward the fullness of life in Christ. Baptism, therefore, envisages a complete profession of faith, complete incorporation in the system of salvation such as Christ willed it to be, and finally complete ingrafting in eucharistic communion.

Because of the sins of men, Baptism is now administered apart from and without its intended completion. Incorporation is begun, but not finished.

In addition to Baptism, to have fellowship or communion with Christ in His Body, you must have fellowship with those who have fellowship with Him (1 John 1:3). We are forbidden, therefore, from schisms and dissensions and must be united in belief (1 Cor. 1:10). Heresy and schism, therefore, also exclude from salvation (Gal 5:20-21; Titus 3:10-11).

Furthermore, while Christ is the head of the Church, He has also willed that the Church be led by men (Acts 20:28). He put St. Peter in charge of His one and only flock (John 21:15-17)–therefore, to be a member of Christ’s flock is to be a member of the flock tended by those who continue to exercise Peter’s ministry.

Our sins are to be forgiven through the ministry of the Church (John 20:21-22) and the faith is to be taught by those with succession from the Apostles–those who have been sent (Rom 10:15). Going out without being sent (like Protestant ministers do), on the other hand, is harmful to souls (Acts 15:24).

Certainly heresy and schism, like all sins, must be properly deliberate and volitional for their to be guilt (a person in good conscience doing their due diligence to seek the truth about God and his Church would not be guilty of such sins if committed in error). Seeking the conversion of Protestants is therefore good for both outside the Church through their own fault and those in good faith (the latter, it brings them their hearts’ greatest desire).

 

[Genesis315]

I do agree that those kind of churches do fellowship way better than Catholics.

Maybe in a certain sense in some cases at the local merely social level, but the Catholic Church overall cannot be beat as far as the fellowship of the whole Church spread throughout the world. There is a social and charitable cohesion that is unparalleled, not to mention the even more important substantial unity created by the sacraments and common faith that our social unity is founded on. We also have a real fellowship with the Church in Heaven, whereas they have none at all. I think we underestimate these elements a bit when we talk about “fellowship.”

In fact, in trying to google what was meant by “fellowship” to evangelicals, I came across various articles defining it unknowingly in the Catholic sense and lamenting that contemporary Christian churches don’t have this “real” Biblical fellowship, but too often a superficial one.

And to be fair, even at Catholic parishes (or as a communal common effort by neighboring parishes) I have found the social opportunities there if you want them. We have the best feast day celebrations and carnivals, etc. not to mention all sorts of special sodalities, confraternities and other groups, both locally and with a larger scope; charitable groups and drives, etc. Most even have coffee and donuts after Mass if you want to socialize. We have people who visit the sick and homebound, the grieving and the dying, the imprisoned, etc., etc. you name it. If that’s not fellowship, I don’t know what is.

 

[goout]

There’s no heresy in adopting practices, music, or disciplines of other communities. That’s just being practical. Practices are not dogmas, they are ways of expressing and living out our faith.

Where I live, evangelicals do a way better job of binding families together for bible studies and making social connections that involve the faith community. These things are important, because our culture is hostile to our faith. Things like home scripture studies, church picnics, family outing together, these are aids to bind the faithful together and keep the faith strong “in the world”. If one’s social life is separated from the faith community, we become ripe for attack by the evil one. We need each more than just Sunday morning.

The problem we have at our parish is:
the school is our main ministry by a huge margin. The parish raises a couple million dollars in collections to subsidize the school. The life of the parish revolves around school plays and sporting events. And the school is doing an absolutely awful job of turning out committed Catholics.

Parents are treating the school as a private haven from public education. They drop kids off for Mass then drive to walmart. They come to sacramental prep several times so the kids can “get the sacraments”, and you never see them at Mass.

Meanwhile, we have 2 evangelical churches in town that are absorbing Christians who want a vibrant and connected Christian community to live in. One of the things they do is break up into bible studies of about 12 people. They mix families and empty nesters and single people.
They gather at a house every Tuesday. They talk about scripture AND, they support one another in their life’s walk.

As Catholics we ought to consider that part of the Mass is “Ite, Missa est…” The Mass is not meant to be contained within the walls it’s meant to flow out into the world. And much of Catholic life is missing that.

 

[on_the_hill]

on_the_hill:

I think, for example, that God would be more happy if I fed the hungry than upset if I ate meat on Ash Wednesday. Does God really care if I fast? I sure hope not. But I do believe with all my heart that God cares if I care for my brothers and sisters here on Earth.

No offense, but I think you’re missing the point of the fast, abstaining from meat & those reasons we should do those things are the reasons caring for our brothers & sisters here on earth becomes more than a human act.

I’m not really missing it–I understand that part of it, and I’m on board with it from that perspective.

I think the ‘theology’ of it gets a little flimsy, though, when people lose focus, when the fasting and abstaining become the objectives in and of themselves, when they become their own purpose.

“Why are you fasting?”
“Because I’m Catholic and we have to.”
“But why?”
“Because that’s what we do.”

 

[TC3033]

Like you I haven’t been to too many parishes, but I can’t ever remember one that wasn’t welcoming.

Oh…I have, but I’m not Catholic though either. I’ve gone through everything from seeing my name asterisked on everything, to not being invited to events and at the baptismal “class” for our youngest I may as well not even been there. It’s also a blast to sit in a church full of people and listen to them belly laugh at jokes about your baptismal promise.

their false churches

I’m pretty sure I’ve read on here that this actually isn’t the teaching of the Catholic church…but I could be wrong, it kinda falls in line with separated brothers and sisters. I could be corrected.

Either way, if you want to evangelize someone, I wouldn’t start out with calling their church false. Odds are they aren’t going to listen to you after that.

I know that, for me, thoughts I had of converting have dwindled over time going to church with my wife due to how unwelcome I’ve been made to feel, hearing some of the things I have and reading some of the things I have there about non-Catholics.

 

[goout]

Obedience helps form the will, so that we are enabled to do the works of mercy. With fewer distractions,
Fasting helps empty the cup, so that God’s love can pour in and pour out.

 

[prayerrider]

Adding Dr. Peter Kreeft to my short list of people I won’t read. Rohr, Martin, Rausch, Harrington, and Kreeft. Among others I can’t recall just now. No thank you.