Peter & Paul Established Latin as the Ligurgical Language in Rome

[pnewton]

Certainly, though I could argue His motivations in doing it, and His active and permissive will.

That is a possibility, but for balance it must be argued in both cases. Then, the leadership of the Holy Spirit becomes nothing but a begging of the question. When the Church unifies has Masses in the Latin, it is the Holy Spirit. When the Church allows the vernacular, it is permissive will. (or visa versa depending on one’s predisposed belief) Agruing either was has the same amount of logical consistency.

 

[Shin]

That is a possibility, but for balance it must be argued in both cases. Then, the leadership of the Holy Spirit becomes nothing but a begging of the question. When the Church unifies has Masses in the Latin, it is the Holy Spirit. When the Church allows the vernacular, it is permissive will. (or visa versa depending on one’s predisposed belief) Agruing either was has the same amount of logical consistency.

Only in a logical vacuum, within which we do not exist. We must take into account reality, which includes that background of tradition – especially tradition in regard to liturgical law, changes in it, and past statements against changes in it and its language.

 

[pnewton]

Only in a logical vacuum, within which we do not exist. We must take into account reality, which includes that background of tradition – especially tradition in regard to liturgical law, changes in it, and past statements against changes in it and its language.

It is not okay to commit a logic fallacy because other factors exist. If you take in account the other things and then decide what is/was right, then an appeal to the guidance of the Holy Spririt is a logical fallacy.

On the other hand, one can be consistent in trusting the guidance of Holy Spirit both past and present since disciplinary matters can change and circustances most definitely change.

 

[Shin]

It is not okay to commit a logic fallacy because other factors exist. If you take in account the other things and then decide what is/was right, then an appeal to the guidance of the Holy Spririt is a logical fallacy.

On the other hand, one can be consistent in trusting the guidance of Holy Spirit both past and present since disciplinary matters can change and circustances most definitely change.

It’s not a logical fallacy, it’s incorporating all the factors into the proper determination of the matter of what is permissive and what is active will.

 

[I_Believe]

This historical phenomenon in no way invalidates the older liturgies and works that were composed in Syrian, Aramaic, and Greek. The Gk. Churches in Orthodoxy and Eastern Catholicism are no less" angelic" because they are not in Latin.

What’s with the bombardment of chest beating here lately. I seldom go over to the Eastern forum, so I have to ask, is something happening over there we need to know ? Have some Roman Catholics been over there disrupting your discussions on the Eastern Rites ?

I really think there is some kind of inferiority complex going on here.

I mean, why do you have to tell me your Rite is not inferior to the Latin Rite, when no one here has even hinted such ? I don’t get it. I visit the Eastern forum every once in a while, and see the use of the word “latinization”. I assume some Eastern churches don’t want these latinizations creeping into their churches and Rtes.

If calling the Gregorian Rite The Mass of All Time on a Roman Catholic forum bothers some of you, all I can say is, deal with it. I don’t have a problem with someone calling their Liturgy “Divine”.

And do you folks fear the Tridentine Catholic worldview ? Are you afraid Rome may rediscover Tradition ?

Honest questions. What is all of this about ?

 

[Hesychios]

Hell I_Believe,

If I may make some comments as an interested observer.

Granted, I am not a Latin Catholic nor an Eastern Catholic, and you may discount my opinions here. But I have been both in my long life and I have seen this from both sides.

I mean, why do you have to tell me your Rite is not inferior to the Latin Rite, when no one here has even hinted such ? I don’t get it.

Actually, you have been saying just that. As your next comment reaffirms…

If calling the Gregorian Rite The Mass of All Time on a Roman Catholic forum bothers some of you, all I can say is, deal with it.

Eastern Catholics are Catholic. They generally know better than use such triumphalistic terminology to describe their own traditions. They know how insulting it is to fellow Christians of other Traditions.

And do you folks fear the Tridentine Catholic worldview ? Are you afraid Rome may rediscover Tradition ?

The only aspect of the Tridentine world view that would have been disturbing to Eastern Catholics is the now discredited Praestantia Ritus Latini.

Otherwise, I think that most Eastern Catholics would be happy to see your Latin traditions restored to it’s former fully dignified practices.

What’s good for you is good for them, and what’s good for them is good for you.

Pax et Bonum

 

[I_Believe]

Hell I_Believe,

Did you just damn me to Hell ?

If I may make some comments as an interested observer.

Granted, I am not a Latin Catholic nor an Eastern Catholic, and you may discount my opinions here. But I have been both in my long life and I have seen this from both sides. Actually, you have been saying just that. As your next comment reaffirms…

The Gregorian Rite was/is called the Mass of the Ages, Mass For All time, etc. for a very long time. My point is, it is not wrong or insulting to continue to call it that. Just because Chevrolet started building cars, does not mean Fords are no longer Fords.

Eastern Catholics are Catholic. They generally know better than use such triumphalistic terminology to describe their own traditions. They know how insulting it is to fellow Christians of other Traditions.

I could argue calling a Liturgy Divine is putting that particular Liturgy above all others. But I don’t. I couldn’t care less.

The only aspect of the Tridentine world view that would have been disturbing to Eastern Catholics is the now discredited Praestantia Ritus Latini.

Otherwise, I think that most Eastern Catholics would be happy to see your Latin traditions restored to it’s former fully dignified practices.

What’s good for you is good for them, and what’s good for them is good for you.

Pax et Bonum

That’s all fine. Actually, if there were Eastern Rite churches in my area, I’d visit them and worship with them. I have no qualms with the East. I just don’t get why some folks who have no stake in the SSPX/Rome matter keep pounding their gavels. It’s none of their business. Just as an internal matter in one of the Eastern churches is none of mine.

It’s a public forum, and all have as much right to post as myself. But it is not right to tell a Roman Catholic what he calls his own Rite.

Can you imagine what would happen if I went over to Eastern and said " How dare you call your Liturgy “Divine” ? What gives you the right to call it Divine ? " Would that not anger you and others ?

 

[Hesychios]

Did you just damn me to Hell ?

Sorry about the typo!

I could argue calling a Liturgy Divine is putting that particular Liturgy above all others.

Actually, I think “the Mass” is sort of a nickname that stuck. It is also a Divine Liturgy. And really there is only one heavenly liturgy, we all take part in it whatever our Tradition. When you attend Mass you are in a place where space and time meet eternity, with all the angels and saints, and I am there with you.

That’s all fine. Actually, if there were Eastern Rite churches in my area, I’d visit them and worship with them. I have no qualms with the East. I just don’t get why some folks who have no stake in the SSPX/Rome matter keep pounding their gavels. It’s none of their business. Just as an internal matter in one of the Eastern churches is none of mine.

Eastern Christians take a deep interest in the Latin church. It’s like the elephant in the living room, you can try to ignore it but if it has indigestion…

It’s a public forum, and all have as much right to post as myself. But it is not right to tell a Roman Catholic what he calls his own Rite.

I believe it’s called the Latin rite. You may call it whatever you like though, I was hoping to explain another perspective.

 

[ProVobis]

St. peter established Latin as the language of the church in 50 AD. Even then the Mass was said in Latin and has continued to this very day, despite what the Newchurchers are doing. Things may have been written in Greek, but that does not mean the official language of the church was greek.

There may be a fine definition line here as many of the Greek words were Latinized to some extent. Even the Kyrie Eleison is considered Latin by many folks.

 

[ProVobis]

Who cares what language the liturgy is celebrated in? They’re merely words.

Not so. If Latin is the language of the Church, then its doctrine must be in Latin. No translations are exact so it behooves us to attempt to stick to the Latin, although I’ll concede that not to do so doesn’t make you an evil Catholic.

 

[ProVobis]

Did you know that there is a committee in the Vatican to “update” the language of Latin? You know–add words like “computer” and “internet” etc.

Hey, it’s about time. They’ve updated many elements of the periodic table and anatomy parts of the body as well.

 

[ProVobis]

So, the language of Julius Caesar, Caligula, Nero and an entire host of lunatics, murderers, rapists, homosexuals, pedophiles, incest loving, barbarian degenerates is “set aside for God,” being “quite sacred and holy?”

I don’t think Vatican II included this logic of yours when they voted to retain Latin in the liturgy.

 

[ProVobis]

In the Latin Mass, only the Altar servers are allowed to pray the responses out loud. The congregation is supposed to keep silent throughout the whole thing, except for the prayers that are prayed in English at the very end.

I don’t think I’ve ever attended an EF Mass where the congregation was totally silent.

 

[jmcrae]

I don’t think I’ve ever attended an EF Mass where the congregation was totally silent.

And I have never been to one where the congregation did any of the responses, other than perhaps one or two people doing so under their breath.

But I am told that it is the role of the Altar server to do the responses, on our behalf, because we are not expected to know how to pronounce the Latin correctly.

 

[Aramis]

Many Eastern Catholics consider themselves to be “Traditional” Catholics.

Further, the issue with the TLM crowd is that, when they can’t find a TLM, they often come and try to latinize the Byzantines.

It does affect the Byzantines quite a bit.

I’ve literally heard people come to the parish, and then complain that “why isn’t it in Latin? All liturgies should be Latin!”… Some prior pastors have been rather blunt that, if they want latin, they need to speak to the Archbishop of Anchorage, and not be demanding things that don’t belong in the Byzantine Rite.

 

[I_Believe]

Many Eastern Catholics consider themselves to be “Traditional” Catholics.

Further, the issue with the TLM crowd is that, when they can’t find a TLM, they often come and try to latinize the Byzantines.

It does affect the Byzantines quite a bit.

I’ve literally heard people come to the parish, and then complain that “why isn’t it in Latin? All liturgies should be Latin!”… Some prior pastors have been rather blunt that, if they want latin, they need to speak to the Archbishop of Anchorage, and not be demanding things that don’t belong in the Byzantine Rite.

“TLM crowd”

Quite revealing.

 

[Hesychios]

“TLM crowd”

Quite revealing.

Perhaps that wasn’t the best choice of words, but I know what Aramis is writing about…

When I was a Byzantine Catholic I was very involved. Along with several others we functioned as greeters to the parish. You would probably be shocked how much grief we got from Latin Catholics. Most visitors, including Protestants, were usually very kind and reverent. I would say the same for most Novus Ordo Latins. But when we saw the ladies wearing their mantillas coming in, there was nothing but apprehension. Some of these people were belligerent, and they did not hesitate to confront our beloved priest and make him PROVE that he was really Catholic! The boorishness is intolerable.

I myself was so berated by a visitor that I thought about giving up on the greeting for good. We were accused of “faking” and tricking innocent Catholics into coming in. After I calmly replied to every accusation she said “that’s what that other fellow told me…who coached you to say these things that priest?” My fellow parishioners (who knew me as a recent transfer from the Latin Rite myself) kept way back but they could hear it all. The comment I got when it was all over was “now you know what it’s been like for us all these years!” Almost 8 years later I can remember it like it was yesterday.

I have since found that this kind of encounter is not an unusual occurrence across the United States. Aramis is in Alaska and my experience was all in Illinois and Indiana.

Since becoming Orthodox late in 2005 and greeting there I have never encountered anything like that again.

I think it was good that the Pope made the Motu Proprio, it will help those people bloom where they are planted.

Michael

 

[I_Believe]

Hi Michael, it certainly is rude to come into someone’s place of worship and question their Faith. I didn’t know it happened that often. I have seen a guest at a OF parish questioning a priest after Mass about his Homily, and it wasn’t pretty.

My apology if I offended anyone.