Peter the "rock"?

[Howie01]

paul c:

it just shows that you don’t understand how Catholics approach their faith. We don’t have “opinions” about what scripture means. We instead are willing to submit to the interpretations of scripture that the Church provides…

What makes you willing to submit to a thing, if you have no opinion about what that thing means?

 

[paul_c]

What makes you willing to submit to a thing, if you have no opinion about what that thing means?

faith

 

[davidv]

faith

And humility.

 

[sixofseven]

2 Chronicles 30:8
Do not be stiff-necked, as your fathers were; submit to the LORD. Come to the sanctuary, which he has consecrated forever. Serve the LORD your God, so that his fierce anger will turn away from you.

Romans 10:3
Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness.

Romans 13:1
Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

Romans 13:5
Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience.

 

[jcrichton]

2 Chronicles 30:8
Do not be stiff-necked, as your fathers were; submit to the LORD. Come to the sanctuary, which he has consecrated forever. Serve the LORD your God, so that his fierce anger will turn away from you.

Romans 10:3
Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness.

Romans 13:1
Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

Romans 13:5
Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience.

…they don’t think that Scriptures such as the ones you’ve quoted meant what it said or maybe only till the last Apostle died… then it became a free-for-all!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[sixofseven]

…they don’t think that Scriptures such as the ones you’ve quoted meant what it said or maybe only till the last Apostle died… then it became a free-for-all!

Maran atha!

Angel

That’s what I don’t get - why would it stop at the death of the apostles? Did the Ten Commandments stop at the death of Moses? The Jews listened to Moses didn’t they? - they keep the Jewish Law passed down from Moses don’t they? Even today! What happened to the ones that didn’t?

Why wouldn’t Christians today keep the law, taught by Christ, revealed to the apostles and (name removed by moderator)sired by the Holy Spirit and therefore God’s Word? Just as the teachings of Moses still apply to the Jews, why wouldn’t the teachings of the Apostles apply to Christians?

I know it seems so simple for Catholics to understand, it just makes me sad that so many are missing out on the FULLNESS of Christ.

 

[Howie01]

paul c:

faith

Faith.

Why have faith in something when you have no opinion about its meaning?

Having no opinion about something indicates indifference toward the thing.

Are you indifferent toward Scripture?

If you are, why have faith in it?

 

[NotWorthy]

Faith.

Why have faith in something when you have no opinion about its meaning?

Having no opinion about something indicates indifference toward the thing.

Are you indifferent toward Scripture?

If you are, why have faith in it?

I don’t understand this question. Why can’t someone have a faith in something and have an opinion.

Why would you think Catholics are indifferent toward Scripture?!?

 

[jcrichton]

That’s what I don’t get - why would it stop at the death of the apostles? Did the Ten Commandments stop at the death of Moses? The Jews listened to Moses didn’t they? - they keep the Jewish Law passed down from Moses don’t they? Even today! What happened to the ones that didn’t?

Why wouldn’t Christians today keep the law, taught by Christ, revealed to the apostles and (name removed by moderator)sired by the Holy Spirit and therefore God’s Word? Just as the teachings of Moses still apply to the Jews, why wouldn’t the teachings of the Apostles apply to Christians?

I know it seems so simple for Catholics to understand, it just makes me sad that so many are missing out on the FULLNESS of Christ.

The problem arises from fear… fear that the Church is not the True Church founded by Christ (though it is Christ Himself that attests that not even hell can destroy her; He tells us that He will send the other Paraclete, which the world does not know and cannot know, to abide with and in the Church; He even tells us that He Himself will not leave the Church orphan for He will remain with us till the end of times.

…that fear becomes complex when they have to take into account that they may be wrong about what they have been holding as their deposit of Faith; if the Catholic Church is Christ’s only founded Church, then they are not part of the Body of Christ (at least in its fullness)–hence, they accept the Bible which the Church compiled, but they reject her Canon in support of the Jewish Canon (coincidentally, these reject Christ’s Divinity and consequently the whole New Testament and those books of the Old Testament which they determined were not to be included in their Canon–as I understand it their council was created to refute the Church’s councils which produced the 73 books of the Bible’s Canon).

Lastly, pride is also a major factor; they understand that Scriptures speak of One Baptism, One Faith, One Church, One Holy Spirit, One Body of Christ… but they reason away everything that points them to the Church; rather than seeking to heal the Body of Christ by returning to the Church they continue to seek enlightenment through constant schisms–I’ve found that the only true elements that most these groups have in common is the rejection of the Church and their rigid determination to recreate the Body of Christ in their own image (theologically speaking).

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[paul_c]

Faith.

Why have faith in something when you have no opinion about its meaning?

Having no opinion about something indicates indifference toward the thing.

Are you indifferent toward Scripture?

If you are, why have faith in it?

Howie, when you ask questions like this, it just shows how far you are from understanding Catholics and their faith.

It not that we don’t think about the faith or about scripture. We do. Alot. You can tell by how many hours we spend here each day. We are far from indifferent. In fact, we are passionate about our faith.

The fundamental difference, is when we contemplate what scripture means, we have enough humility to accept the interpretation of the Church and embrace it as our own. Its not that we don’t use reason. Its just that our reasoning is that the Apostles handed the truth down to us through the church and we’d be fools to try to second guess that. We mold ourselves to the truth , rather than try to mold the truth to our beliefs.

 

[Howie01]

paul c:

Howie, when you ask questions like this, it just shows how far you are from understanding Catholics and their faith.

If you’re representative of Catholics and their faith, I’m not far from understanding you at all.

Concerning individual fallibility and interpretation of scripture, Catholics think all others are fallible, but they are not, because they belong to the “infallible church.” However, what Catholics don’t understand is, it is their own personal fallible opinion of their own personal and private interpretation of Scripture that’s led them to that conclusion.
paul c:

It not that we don’t think about the faith or about scripture. We do. Alot. You can tell by how many hours we spend here each day. We are far from indifferent. In fact, we are passionate about our faith.

A faith concerning which, you have no opinion about the meaning of the revelation upon which the faith is built.
paul c:

The fundamental difference, is when we contemplate what scripture means, we have enough humility to accept the interpretation of the Church and embrace it as our own.

But do you have enough humility to admit that the basis for your acceptance of the interpretation of the church is your own opinion of what scripture means?
paul c:

Its not that we don’t use reason. Its just that our reasoning is that the Apostles handed the truth down to us through the church and we’d be fools to try to second guess that.

Unbelievable.

Look Paul, an outcome of the use of reason is the forming of opinions. You say Catholics don’t have opinions about what the Scripture means.

Following that to its logical conclusion, in joining yourself to Catholicism, the use of reason was not involved. At least not with respect to the meaning of Scripture it wasn’t.

Perhaps it’s the garb of the clergy that attracted you, or the architecture of the church buildings, but by your own admission, it wasn’t the use of reason concerning the meaning of Scripture—you have no opinion on that.

 

[paul_c]

If you’re representative of Catholics and their faith, I’m not far from understanding you at all.:

I don’t think so, your personal biases are blocking you from understanding what I am telling you.

Concerning individual fallibility and interpretation of scripture, Catholics think all others are fallible, but they are not, because they belong to the “infallible church.” However, what Catholics don’t understand is, it is their own personal fallible opinion of their own personal and private interpretation of Scripture that’s led them to that conclusion.:

Actually, no. Our decision to be Catholics is based on the asnswer to the question about whether the Catholic Church is credible in its claims to be the one true church. Once you believe that it is, you will automatically accept the Churches interpretation of scripture, since it holds the truth about Salvation. This decision is not about seeing whether the Catholic church’s views align to our own views, because our own views are meaningless opinions, with no basis in the truth.

A faith concerning which, you have no opinion about the meaning of the revelation upon which the faith is built. :

So, you see, you don’t understand. Our opinion is that the church teaches the truth and we will follow that.

But do you have enough humility to admit that the basis for your acceptance of the interpretation of the church is your own opinion of what scripture means? :

It has nothing to do with my opinion on what scripture means and everything to do with my opinion that the Catholic Church is the one true Christian church and it teaches the truth. if my opinions were to differ from that taught by the church, I would be in error. Therefore, I strive to understand the Church’s teaching and align my actions to those truths.

Look Paul, an outcome of the use of reason is the forming of opinions. You say Catholics don’t have opinions about what the Scripture means.

Following that to its logical conclusion, in joining yourself to Catholicism, the use of reason was not involved. At least not with respect to the meaning of Scripture it wasn’t.

Perhaps it’s the garb of the clergy that attracted you, or the architecture of the church buildings, but by your own admission, it wasn’t the use of reason concerning the meaning of Scripture—you have no opinion on that.

Again, your biases are showing. My recognition that the Catholic Church teaches the truth had nothing to do with clerical garb of Church architecture. Don’t you think that statement was a little condenscending? Again, the recognition that the Catholic Church is the one true church has nothing to do with agreement on church doctrine. Finding a church that matches your personal doctrine will not result in you finding the truth, it only allows you to find people that think like you do. But as Jesus said,(paraphrasing) "If a blind man follows another blind man, both will fall into a ditch. " Instead, what you need to do is follow Church history to see whether the Catholic Church’s claims to continuity of succession and doctrine are true. Once you do so, you too will understand that the Catholic Church is the bride of Christ and then you will accept the truth it teaches, rather than follow your own man-made doctrines.

 

[NotWorthy]

Look Paul, an outcome of the use of reason is the forming of opinions. You say Catholics don’t have opinions about what the Scripture means.

Following that to its logical conclusion, in joining yourself to Catholicism, the use of reason was not involved. At least not with respect to the meaning of Scripture it wasn’t.

OK, I’m completely lost now, Howie. Where do you get this from? If you interpret Scripture the same way you are interpreting what Paul says, than I can clearly understand how you believe what you believe.

 

[SHW]

Authority of the Pope and the Magisterium of the Church

I started a new thread for this as Howie suggested (posts #24 & #25) and it is at:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=4897862#post4897862

Please, come on over and discuss this :coffeeread:

SHW

Authority of the Pope and the Magisterium of the Church

Scripture does indeed support the Catholic Church’s claim that the Church has a hierarchy of authority and that this hierarchy was put in place by Jesus. Even the angels in heaven are in a hierarchy (principalities, powers, etc.) Scholars believe that there are 9 choirs of angels, each choir with different attributes and duties. So heaven has a hierarchy with God above all. nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_angelic_hierarchy

2 Corinthians 13:10 “Therefore I write these things being absent, lest being present I should use sharpness, according to the authority which the Lord has given me for edification and not for destruction.”

Titus 2:15 “Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you.”

Hebrews 13:7 " Remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you, whose faith follow, considering the outcome of their conduct. 8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever."

Hebrews 13:17 “Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you.”

Jesus founded a Church and appointed its leaders. These leaders appointed other leaders to carry on the faith, and this has continued for two thousand years in the Catholic Church.

2 Timothy 2:2 “And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.”

If you want to know if you are truly walking according to God’s will in matters of faith and morals, worship practices, and Scripture interpretation; then listen to His Church, the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church which will continue until He returns at His Second Coming. (Matthew 28:19-20, Matthew 16:17-19, John 16:12-14, Acts 9:31)

The Lord said to the Apostles and the seventy disciples whom He appointed: "He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.” Luke 10:2-16 Jesus appointed the first hierarchy and sent them out to teach and to rule over His Church on earth with His authority. But only Peter received the “keys of the kingdom” (Matthew 16:18-19) Only one person can have the keys.

These “keys of the kingdom” signify an office and this office passes to another when it becomes vacant. When an earthly steward can no longer serve the king, the “actual” keys to a kingdom’s treasury storeroom are passed down to another so that the newly appointed steward can now guard the kingdom’s treasury. The treasury storeroom will always need guarding.

Examples of Excommunication:
1 Timothy 1:18-20 “This charge I commit to you, son Timothy, according to the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you may wage the good warfare, 19 having faith and a good conscience, which some having rejected, concerning the faith have suffered shipwreck, 20 of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.”

Matthew 18:15-19 “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ 17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.18 “Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. 19 “Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven.”

First record of Apostolic Succession:
Acts 1:15-26 "And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples (altogether the number of names was about a hundred and twenty), and said, 16 “Men and brethren, this Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus; 17 for he was numbered with us and obtained a part in this ministry…”

20 “For it is written in the Book of Psalms:
‘Let his dwelling place be desolate,
And let no one live in it’; and,
‘Let another take his office…’

23 And they proposed two: Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. 24 And they prayed and said, “You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen 25 to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.” 26 And they cast their lots, and the lot fell on Matthias. And he was numbered with the eleven apostles."

If you desire to do the will of God in spiritual matters, then listen to His Church and obey. He put the hierarchy in place to rule and to teach with His authority on earth.

 

[Howie01]

paul c:

I don’t think so, your personal biases are blocking you from understanding what I am telling you.

Paul, are you biased against what I’m telling you?
paul c:

Actually, no…

So your own opinion, and your own interpretation of Scripture didn’t lead you to the conclusion that the RCC is the one true church?
paul c:

Our decision to be Catholics is based on the answer to the question about whether the Catholic Church is credible in its claims to be the one true church.

OK.

But where does one find the true description of the “one true church” in order to accurately gauge a church’s claim to being the “one true church?”
paul c:

Once you believe that it is, you will automatically accept the Churches interpretation of scripture, since it holds the truth about Salvation.

Accepting and believing that a church holds the true understanding of salvation, assumes you had an opinion of the true understanding of salvation to begin with, otherwise, how do you recognize that a church has the true meaning of it?

You couldn’t have gotten that understanding from Scripture, because by your own admission, you have no opinion about the meaning of Scripture.

So from where does your initial understanding of the true meaning of salvation come?
paul c:

This decision is not about seeing whether the Catholic church’s views align to our own views, because our own views are meaningless opinions, with no basis in the truth.

If you’re not concerned about the Catholic Church’s views aligning with your views, because your views are meaningless opinions with no basis in the truth, then with whose views, or what views, are you concerned that Catholic Church’s views align?
paul c:

So, you see, you don’t understand. Our opinion is that the church teaches the truth and we will follow that.

You keep saying that, and I keep asking, on what do you base your opinion that the church teaches truth?

It has nothing to do with my opinion on what scripture means…

Wait a minute—you keep insisting that you have no opinion on what Scripture means.

Now you’re saying that your acceptance of the RCC as the one true church has nothing to do with your opinion on what Scripture means.

ISTM from that statement, you DO have an opinion on what Scripture means, thus proving my point, viz an opinion of scripture, based upon your interpretation of scripture, is what you led you to the Catholic church.
paul c:

My recognition that the Catholic Church teaches the truth had nothing to do with clerical garb of Church architecture. Don’t you think that statement was a little condenscending?

Hey, calm down. I didn’t it say clerical garb, etc. had anything to do with your decision.

I said, perhaps it did.
paul c:

Again, the recognition that the Catholic Church is the one true church has nothing to do with agreement on church doctrine.

Wow.
paul c:

Finding a church that matches your personal doctrine will not result in you finding the truth, it only allows you to find people that think like you do.

Instead, what you need to do is follow Church history to see whether the Catholic Church’s claims to continuity of succession and doctrine are true.

If that’s what all Catholics do, why isn’t that only finding people who think like you do?

Moving on, I said in an earlier post to you, “longevity and history do not determine truth.” Your statement backs that up. All it determines is the truth that the RCC has a history.
paul c:

Once you do so, you too will understand that the Catholic Church is the bride of Christ and then you will accept the truth it teaches, rather than follow your own man-made doctrines.

Your saying I should accept the RCC because it has a long history.

Reformed theology has a long history.

Why shouldn’t I accept Reformed theology on the basis of its long history?

 

[paul_c]

Howie,
You just can’t grasp what I am telliing you. We don’t decide to be Catholics for either of the two reasons you imply. We don’t join because of their longevity and we don’t join because the beliefs of the Church match our own. We join the Catholic Church because we believe it is the Church that Jesus commissioned on earth to spread his Gospel.

This is a huge departure from how you think about Faith and scripture, I understand that. You trust in your own judgement on scripture and seek out a church to match your own view. We on the other hand, trust in the Church completely to tell us how to gain salvation. We adopt its views because we know that the Church teaches the truth.

I would like you to join us in the truth, but this can not happen until you learn to accept the teaching of others. Blessed are the meek, because they will inherit the earth.

As for your question about how we know the Catholic Church is the one true Christian Church, well we know that Christ commissioned Peter to start his church. This is clear from scripture and we also know that he passed that commission on to his successors, This is clear from reading the Early Church Fathers and observing the continuity of message through the centuries. There have been numerous threads addressing the issue of why we believe we belong to the one true church so you could read them for more insight if you are genuinely interested.

 

[Howie01]

paul c:

Howie, You just can’t grasp what I am telliing you.

Oh Paul, look what you’ve been reduced to because of your careless statement, "Catholics don’t have opinions on what the Scripture means."
paul c:

As for your question about how we know the Catholic Church is the one true Christian Church, well we know that Christ commissioned Peter to start his church. This is clear from scripture…

But that’s not your opinion, reached by any interpretation of scripture on your part, correct?

It’s simply what you’ve been told by the Church. IOW, you’re not in agreement with the Scripture directly, you’re in agreement with the scripture through the Church.

I get it.

This discussion with you, Paul, has been very eye-opening for me. :yup:

And, it hasn’t dissuaded me from my position, but has renewed me to it. :tiphat:

 

[paul_c]

Oh Paul, look what you’ve been reduced to because of your careless statement, "Catholics don’t have opinions on what the Scripture means."

But that’s not your opinion, reached by any interpretation of scripture on your part, correct?

It’s simply what you’ve been told by the Church. IOW, you’re not in agreement with the Scripture directly, you’re in agreement with the scripture through the Church.

I get it.

This discussion with you, Paul, has been very eye-opening for me. :yup:

And, it hasn’t dissuaded me from my position, but has renewed me to it. :tiphat:

I’m glad you understand our situation better and I’m sure that you have not been dissuaded from your current position. I can see from how you addressed me in this discussion that you are not ready to let go of personal interpretation and embrace the truth that comes through the church. Someday, perhaps you will reach the level of humility that allows you to recognize that our own perspectives are very limited and that we need help to understand the truth about salvation. Keep searching for the truth, though. The Lord works in mysterious ways and he calls each of us in his own time. The question is , will we answer “Yes” when he calls or will we be too proud…

 

[JRKH]

You know ----
As I glance through these kinds of threads I am repeatedly reminded of Jesus admonision to take our disputes and, “Tell it To The Church”.

Here is Howie and others going over the same ground that has been covered so many times before and unable to come to an agreement. In this we have teh first two parts of Jesus instruction fulfilled for two have discussed the issue, now “Two or three” have piled in with no improvement. It’s time to follow Jesus command and “Tell it to the Church”.

Can we all agree that we will abide by what the Church decides???

Come-on now fellow Christians. Are we to Follow Christ’s own words???

Let’s here it.

Peace
James

 

[sixofseven]

Oh Paul, look what you’ve been reduced to because of your careless statement, "Catholics don’t have opinions on what the Scripture means."

But that’s not your opinion, reached by any interpretation of scripture on your part, correct?

It’s simply what you’ve been told by the Church. IOW, you’re not in agreement with the Scripture directly, you’re in agreement with the scripture through the Church.

I get it.

This discussion with you, Paul, has been very eye-opening for me. :yup:

And, it hasn’t dissuaded me from my position, but has renewed me to it. :tiphat:

Howie, sorry to barge in here but your disussion with Paul intrigued me. Have you never been to a service or bible study where the minister read a passage and then said ‘this is what this means, or this is how this relates to us today’ etc etc. And have you not then thought, ‘right, I understand and accept that’.

The bible says NOT to try to individually interpret scripture:
2 Peter 1:20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation. 21For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

Prior to saying this Peter says:

12So I will always remind you of these things, even though you know them and are firmly established in the truth you now have. 13I think it is right to refresh your memory as long as I live in the tent of this body, 14because I know that I will soon put it aside, as our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. **15And I will make every effort to see that after my departure you will always be able to remember these things. **

So - coming back to the OP - this is further evidence of the succession of Peter, the rock that Christ built his Church on.

When the Church speaks to us, whether it is through the Homily, the Magisterium, or Doctrine, Catholics accept that the position of the Church has been inspired and directed by the Holy Spirit - it is then up to us to apply that to our lives. If we can’t, then I’m afraid we cease to be in the Body of Christ. Eg - you can’t be Catholic and be pro-choice.

I think everyone has the responsibility to decide what he/she believes. Of course we would love to share our faith with you, but if you can’t accept that what the Church teaches is indeed the Truth, if you can’t submit, then it’s better that you do stay where you are.

It is many posts that I have read from non-Catholics that renew my position too - I feel so blessed!