Peter The Rock

[MrStain]

Ok My question is.
Does the church teach that it (The Church) is spiritualy built on peter. or literally built on Peter? By this I mean if the church beleives that since The Vatican is located on St peters Tomb. That makes the Catholic Church Jesus’ Church. Oh and by the way I am Catholic.

Scriptures say that the Church will be built upon Peter (Mt 16:18-19 ) as well as the Apostles with Jesus as the chief cornerstone(Eph 2:20). Of course the early Church recognized this and thus they remained steadfast in the Apostles Doctrines (Acts 2:42) and served as the pillar and foundation of truth (1Tim 3:15).

 

[MrStain]

**Rom 8:1 There is NO CONDEMNATION for those in Christ Jesus. **

So, you tell everyone the have hardened their hearts and they don’t listen, yet you continue to repeat yourself and ignore the points being made. Is it so hard to have a conversation? Do you just not want to listen? Should we shake the dust off our feet with you?

Mark 6:11
And whoever will not receive you nor hear you, when you depart from there, shake off the dust under your feet as a testimony against them. Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!”

 

[2ndGen]

First, let’s get a literal translation of the text from the Aramaic:

Matthew 16:
17. Jesus replied and told him, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Yoanah*, that flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, except my Father in heaven.
18. I am also telling you that you are the Rock [Peter] and on this rock I am building my Church, and the doors of sheol cannot draw* it in.
19. “To you I give the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven, and whatever you bind on earth, shall be bound in heaven and whatever you undo on earth, shall be undone in heaven.”​

Now, let’s break it down without “adding” words to the text:

Matthew 16:
17.
Jesus replied and told him,
"Blessed are you, Simon son of Yoanah*,
that flesh and blood did not reveal it to you,
except my Father in heaven.

HERE, JESUS TELLS PETER THAT IT IS GOD WHO CHOSE HIM TO REVEAL THE CORRECT ANSWER TO,
NOT ANY HUMAN BEING.
PETER’S ANSWER COMES FROM
GOD’S PERSONAL REVELATION TO HIM.
I am also telling you that you are the Rock [Peter]
and on this rock I am building my Church,
and the doors of sheol cannot draw it in.

NOW, JESUS TELLS PETER THAT IN ADDITION TO GOD HAVING CHOSEN HIM TO REVEAL WHO HE WAS TO,
("I am ALSO…), HE [JESUS] IS BUILDING HIS CHURCH UPON THE SAME ROCK THAT HE JUST CALLED PETER AND IT WOULDN’T BE CORRUPTED BY SATAN.
“To you I give the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven, and whatever you bind on earth, shall be bound in heaven and whatever you undo on earth, shall be undone in heaven.”

NOW, HE SAYS THAT HE IS GIVING THE KEYS TO THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN TO HIM (PETER, NOT TO HIMSELF). THEN COMES THE AUTHORITY ISSUE WHERE PETER (NOT JESUS) IS SAID TO BE ABLE TO BIND AND LOOSEN.

NOW SOME DON’T UNDERSTAND THIS BECAUSE THEY CAN’T SEE HOW SOMETHING BOUND ON EARTH CAN BE AGREED TO IN HEAVEN, BUT! ITS’ THE OTHER WAY AROUND…BY THE TIME THAT PETER HAS MADE A DECISION, IT HAS ALREADY BEEN DECIDED THAT BY HEAVEN. THEREFORE, PETER’S DECISIONS ARE GUIDED BY HEAVEN.

THIS WOULD BE ALLUDED TO IN MANY FURTHER STATEMENTS.

FOR EXAMPLE, MATTHEW 7:

JESUS TALKS ABOUT ONE WHO BUILDS HIS HOUSE ON SAND (AKA SOIL OR BUILDS THEIR CHURCH ON HUMANS) AND THE ONE WHO BUILDS HIS HOUSE ON ROCK (AKA SIMON THE ROCK [PETER]). WHEN THE WINDS/WATERS COME (WIND/WATER HAS BEEN USED TO ALLUDE TO SPIRITS, EXAMPLE, JESUS LETS HIS SPIRIT GO ON THE CROSS AS HIS HEART IS PIERCED AND OUT COMES WATER, BAPTISM IN WATER, WATER [EVIL SPIRITS] PURSUE MARY IN REVELATION 12, ETC…).

THE HOUSE THAT IS BUILT UPON SAND (AND MAN IS MADE OF SOIL) IS THE CHURCH BUILT ON MAN. WHEN TESTED, IT COLLAPSES INTO 30K+ DENOMINATIONS (A ZILLION PIECES).

THE HOUSE BUILT UPON ROCK (THE CHURCH BUILT UPON PETER AS IN MATTHEW 16) STOOD FAST WHEN TESTED BY THE SPIRITS. JUST AS THE CATHOLIC CHURCH (WHICH WAS FOUNDED BY PETER) HAS STOOD FAST.

THEN OF COURSE, THERE IS JOHN’S GOSPEL WHERE PETER IS NOT ONLY REDEEMED FOR HIS 3 DENIALS OF CHRIST, BUT IS TOLD 3 TIMES TO LEAD JESUS’ FOLLOWERS (THE CHURCH).

JOHN 21:
15So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.

HERE, JESUS TELLS PETER TO NOURISH HIS APOSTLES. WHY IS IT THE APOSTLES THAT HE’S TALKING ABOUT?
BECAUSE ALL OF THE APOSTLES WOULD GO ON TO BE MARTYRED AS HE WAS. THEY WOULD ALL BE SLAUGHTERED IN HONOR OF HIM. THEY WOULD BE SACRIFICED AS LAMBS.

(EXCEPT FOR JOHN AND THAT’S REFERRED TO BY PETER WHEN HE ASKED JESUS WHAT ABOUT HIM AT THE END OF THIS BOOK AND JESUS MENTIONED HIS NOT DIEING…GOOD REASONS WHY JOHN WASN’T TORTURED TO DEATH? HE WAS CHOSEN TO CARE FOR MARY UPON JESUS’ DEATH, HE WAS THE ONLY ONE WHO DIDN’T ABANDON CHRIST AT THE END AND HE WAS CHOSEN TO WRITE THE LAST BOOK OF THE BIBLE).

16He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

NOW, HAVING MADE SURE THAT PETER WILL SHEPARD THE CHURCH’S LEADERS (BE THE HEAD OF THE APOSTLES, AKA, THE POPE [POPE=FATHER IN GREEK/PAPA, AS IN FATHER OF THE CHURCH]),
HE TURNS PETER’S ATTENTION TO THE DISCIPLES, THE SHEEP, JESUS’ FLOCK OF WHOM HE IS THE GOOD SHEPHARD.

HE NOW TRANSFERS HIS AUTHORITY TO PETER TO BE THE SHEPHARD OF HIS CHURCH AND OF HIS FLOCK.

17He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

PETER LEADS THE LEADERS OF THE CHURCH,
AND THE CHURCH ITSELF.

NOW, UNLESS JESUS LITERALLY WAS A CARPENTER WITH A FLOCK OF SHEEP, HE COULD ONLY HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT HIS FLOCK, US.

PAX

 

[undefined]

What? Do you suppose that just repeating a verse of scripture with some kind of agenda behind it (that requires twisting the Word of God and offering a new wind of modern (less than 500 years old) doctrinal interpretation is going to refute the 2,000 years of faithful Christian teaching?

If that’s all you got, then you better go back to your preacher and get a refill of propaganda, but when you do…you be sure to ask him just what language Jesus and the apostles spoke among themselves, and then go look into the real history and see if what he told you is true.

When you find out the truth I think you’re gonna be angry…but don’t take it out on Catholics. We tried to share with you just like 1st Peter 3:15 says.

1 Corinthians 13:4 Love is patient; love is kind; love is not envious or boastful or arrogant 5 or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; 6 it does not rejoice in wrongdoing, but rejoices in the truth. 7 It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

 

[2ndGen]

Oh, and the whole petras/petros, big rock/little rock argument that some have tried to use for Matthew 16:18?

If they want to hold true to the Greek of the text and ignore the fact that Matthew was written in Aramaic, we can go there.

However, the petros/petras wording doesn’t exist in the Koine Greek which was the Greek language used for biblical text.

So that argument is null (unless they want to believe that The Bible was written in Modern Greek 2,000 years ago).

 

[undefined]

Now, let’s break it down without “adding” words to the text:

Matthew 16:
17.
Jesus replied and told him,
"Blessed are you, Simon son of Yoanah*,
that flesh and blood did not reveal it to you,
except my Father in heaven.

HERE, JESUS TELLS PETER THAT IT IS GOD WHO CHOSE HIM TO REVEAL THE CORRECT ANSWER TO,
NOT ANY HUMAN BEING.
PETER’S ANSWER COMES FROM
GOD’S PERSONAL REVELATION TO HIM.
I am also telling you that you are the Rock [Peter]
and on this rock I am building my Church,
and the doors of sheol cannot draw it in.

NOW, JESUS TELLS PETER THAT IN ADDITION TO GOD HAVING CHOSEN HIM TO REVEAL WHO HE WAS TO,
("I am ALSO…), HE [JESUS] IS BUILDING HIS CHURCH UPON THE SAME ROCK THAT HE JUST CALLED PETER AND IT WOULDN’T BE CORRUPTED BY SATAN.
“To you I give the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven, and whatever you bind on earth, shall be bound in heaven and whatever you undo on earth, shall be undone in heaven.”

NOW, HE SAYS THAT HE IS GIVING THE KEYS TO THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN TO HIM (PETER, NOT TO HIMSELF). THEN COMES THE AUTHORITY ISSUE WHERE PETER (NOT JESUS) IS SAID TO BE ABLE TO BIND AND LOOSEN.

NOW SOME DON’T UNDERSTAND THIS BECAUSE THEY CAN’T SEE HOW SOMETHING BOUND ON EARTH CAN BE AGREED TO IN HEAVEN, BUT! ITS’ THE OTHER WAY AROUND…BY THE TIME THAT PETER HAS MADE A DECISION, IT HAS ALREADY BEEN DECIDED THAT BY HEAVEN. THEREFORE, PETER’S DECISIONS ARE GUIDED BY HEAVEN.

THIS WOULD BE ALLUDED TO IN MANY FURTHER STATEMENTS.

FOR EXAMPLE, MATTHEW 7:

JESUS TALKS ABOUT ONE WHO BUILDS HIS HOUSE ON SAND (AKA SOIL OR BUILDS THEIR CHURCH ON HUMANS) AND THE ONE WHO BUILDS HIS HOUSE ON ROCK (AKA SIMON THE ROCK [PETER]). WHEN THE WINDS/WATERS COME (WIND/WATER HAS BEEN USED TO ALLUDE TO SPIRITS, EXAMPLE, JESUS LETS HIS SPIRIT GO ON THE CROSS AS HIS HEART IS PIERCED AND OUT COMES WATER, BAPTISM IN WATER, WATER [EVIL SPIRITS] PURSUE MARY IN REVELATION 12, ETC…).

THE HOUSE THAT IS BUILT UPON SAND (AND MAN IS MADE OF SOIL) IS THE CHURCH BUILT ON MAN. WHEN TESTED, IT COLLAPSES INTO 30K+ DENOMINATIONS (A ZILLION PIECES).

THE HOUSE BUILT UPON ROCK (THE CHURCH BUILT UPON PETER AS IN MATTHEW 16) STOOD FAST WHEN TESTED BY THE SPIRITS. JUST AS THE CATHOLIC CHURCH (WHICH WAS FOUNDED BY PETER) HAS STOOD FAST.

THEN OF COURSE, THERE IS JOHN’S GOSPEL WHERE PETER IS NOT ONLY REDEEMED FOR HIS 3 DENIALS OF CHRIST, BUT IS TOLD 3 TIMES TO LEAD JESUS’ FOLLOWERS (THE CHURCH).

JOHN 21:
15So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.

HERE, JESUS TELLS PETER TO NOURISH HIS APOSTLES. WHY IS IT THE APOSTLES THAT HE’S TALKING ABOUT?
BECAUSE ALL OF THE APOSTLES WOULD GO ON TO BE MARTYRED AS HE WAS. THEY WOULD ALL BE SLAUGHTERED IN HONOR OF HIM. THEY WOULD BE SACRIFICED AS LAMBS.

(EXCEPT FOR JOHN AND THAT’S REFERRED TO BY PETER WHEN HE ASKED JESUS WHAT ABOUT HIM AT THE END OF THIS BOOK AND JESUS MENTIONED HIS NOT DIEING…GOOD REASONS WHY JOHN WASN’T TORTURED TO DEATH? HE WAS CHOSEN TO CARE FOR MARY UPON JESUS’ DEATH, HE WAS THE ONLY ONE WHO DIDN’T ABANDON CHRIST AT THE END AND HE WAS CHOSEN TO WRITE THE LAST BOOK OF THE BIBLE).

16He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

NOW, HAVING MADE SURE THAT PETER WILL SHEPARD THE CHURCH’S LEADERS (BE THE HEAD OF THE APOSTLES, AKA, THE POPE [POPE=FATHER IN GREEK/PAPA, AS IN FATHER OF THE CHURCH]),
HE TURNS PETER’S ATTENTION TO THE DISCIPLES, THE SHEEP, JESUS’ FLOCK OF WHOM HE IS THE GOOD SHEPHARD.

HE NOW TRANSFERS HIS AUTHORITY TO PETER TO BE THE SHEPHARD OF HIS CHURCH AND OF HIS FLOCK.

17He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

PETER LEADS THE LEADERS OF THE CHURCH,
AND THE CHURCH ITSELF.

NOW, UNLESS JESUS LITERALLY WAS A CARPENTER WITH A FLOCK OF SHEEP, HE COULD ONLY HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT HIS FLOCK, US.

PAX

???

 

[2ndGen]

Isaiah 26:4 the Lord God is the eternal Rock.

Which Lord was Isaiah referring to?

The Lord Jesus Christ?

Or God?

Oh that’s right, Jesus wasn’t born yet…couldn’t have been Him.

Had to be God.

 

[MrStain]

1 Corinthians 13:4 Love is patient; love is kind; love is not envious or boastful or arrogant 5 or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; 6 it does not rejoice in wrongdoing, but rejoices in the truth. 7 It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

Kind of off topic, but don’t forget a verse or two before it. It kind of blows out your faith alone doctrine I’m sure you subscribe to.

1 Cor 13:2
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

 

[undefined]

Which Lord was Isaiah referring to?

The Lord Jesus Christ?

Or God?

Oh that’s right, Jesus wasn’t born yet…couldn’t have been Him.

Had to be God.

**John 1:1 In the beginning the Word already existed. He was with God, and he was God.
**

 

[undefined]

Kind of off topic, but don’t forget a verse or two before it. It kind of blows out your faith alone doctrine I’m sure you subscribe to.

Do you have the gift of discernment?

 

[Church_Militant]

1 Corinthians 13:4 Love is patient;

As we have been with you.

love is kind;

As we have been in answering your posts.

love is not envious

Haven’t seen anything to be envious about…

or boastful

Haven’t seen any of us boating about anything at all…just stating the facts

or arrogant

What have we been arrogant about… the facts speak for themselves. If you have no refutation that isn’t our fault. If we carefully study to show ourselves approved unto God, and (by the Holy Spirit) discern and disagree with your posts, who do you need to take that up with?

5 or rude.

I haven’t seen a soul be rude…or do you consider it rude to show you when you are in error, especially with regard to something that has eternal consequences. Galatians 4:16 Am I then become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

It does not insist on its own way;

Haven’t seen any of this…

it is not irritable or resentful;

Nor these…

6 it does not rejoice in wrongdoing,

Would you then prefer that we pat you on your back and tell you that it’s okay for you to hold beliefs that are contradictory to the Word of God and 2,00 years of Christian teaching? I doubt even you would do that to one of us.

but rejoices in the truth.

AMEN! AMEN! AMEN and ALLELUIA! This is precisely what I and my Catholic brothers and sisters are doing every moment of every day and night! Thank You JESUS!

7 It bears all things,

If you only knew…

believes all things,

1st Thessalonians 5:21 But prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

hopes all things,

1st Thessalonians 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, having on the breastplate of faith and charity, and for a helmet the hope of salvation

endures all things.

Matthew 24:13 But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved.

 

[undefined]

As we have been with you.As we have been in answering your posts.Haven’t seen anything to be envious about…Haven’t seen any of us boating about anything at all…just stating the factsWhat have we been arrogant about… the facts speak for themselves. If you have no refutation that isn’t our fault. If we carefully study to show ourselves approved unto God, and (by the Holy Spirit) discern and disagree with your posts, who do you need to take that up with? :shrug:I haven’t seen a soul be rude…or do you consider it rude to show you when you are in error, especially with regard to something that has eternal consequences. Galatians 4:16 Am I then become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?
Haven’t seen any of this…Nor these…Would you then prefer that we pat you on your back and tell you that it’s okay for you to hold beliefs that are contradictory to the Word of God and 2,00 years of Christian teaching? I doubt even you would do that to one of us.AMEN! AMEN! AMEN and ALLELUIA! This is precisely what I and my Catholic brothers and sisters are doing every moment of every day and night! Thank You JESUS!If you only knew…
1st Thessalonians 5:21 But prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 1st Thessalonians 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, having on the breastplate of faith and charity, and for a helmet the hope of salvationMatthew 24:13 But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved.

**I have noticed from the tone of your posts, that you do not love Christians, who disagree with you.

I am deeply sorry, if have misread **

 

[Church_Militant]

Kind of off topic, but don’t forget a verse or two before it. It kind of blows out your faith alone doctrine I’m sure you subscribe to.

1 Cor 13:2

2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

Do you have the gift of discernment?

Looks like it to me.

Tell us, if today someone teaches something that is contrary to the Word of God, and it even disagrees with the verifiable historic writings of the early church that gave their lives for their faith in Our Lord, and then it even is disagreed with by other n-C Christians, who do you suppose is correct in what they teach? The New Testament and the early church…or the modern whatsit?

 

[2ndGen]

**John 1:1 In the beginning the Word already existed. He was with God, and he was God.
**

The revelation you chose to use didn’t exist until The Gospels.

Can you prove that Isaih meant Jesus specifically?

Up until that time, Isaih never spoke of Jesus as part of The Trinity.

He spoke of Him as One Who was to come,
not One Who was already on earth.

Is there any scripture that shows that Isiah knew of the concept of the Trinity? In other words, did Isaih believe Jesus and God were “1”?

Being that that quote you used was used in the present tense and that according to him, Jesus didn’t exist yet (that He would exist in the future), one would have to prove that Isaih had foreknowledge of The Trinity in order for us to believe that He meant Jesus Christ when He called The Lord The Rock.

Also, if calling The Lord The Rock, then does that apply vice/versa?

Did Jesus, by changing Simon’s name to Rock, call Simon “Lord”?

 

[Church_Militant]

**I have noticed from the tone of your posts, that you do not love Christians, who disagree with you.

I am deeply sorry, if have misread**

You presume to know my heart!? How extraordinary!
Galatians 4:16 Am I then become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

You have indeed misread! Let me just share with you something that you might understand. My Testimony

 

[MrStain]

Do you have the gift of discernment?

Cool. This is looking more and more like a conversation. Nice to talk to you. I’m MrStain a former Southern Baptist – now Catholic.

To answer your question, I have been given the gift of faith (1 Cor 12:9). Faith to remain steadfast in the apostles doctrines (Acts 2:42) since he appointed them first in the Church (1 Cor 12:28).

Here is another reference I ran across that touches on the importance of name changes in Sacred Scripture and how it relates to the topic at hand:

LINK

When GOD gave authority to someone in Scripture, HE changed the name of that person.

1. GOD renamed Abram to Abraham when He made him the ‘Father of a Multitude of Nations’, in Gen 17:5. HE gave Abraham ‘primacy’ over all other men.

1. GOD renamed Sara to Sarah when HE made her the ‘Mother of Nations’ in Gen 17:15-16. HE gave Sarah ‘primacy’ over all other women.

1. GOD renamed Jacob to Israel, the name of the Jewish Nation, and Jacob became the first Israeli in Gen 32:29, 35:10.

1. GOD renamed Simon to Peter in Matt 16:18, thus giving him ‘primacy’ over all of the Apostles. Why else would GOD give a new name to Simon?

 

[undefined]

Looks like it to me.

Tell us, if today someone teaches something that is contrary to the Word of God, and it even disagrees with the verifiable historic writings of the early church that gave their lives for their faith in Our Lord, and then it even is disagreed with by other n-C Christians, who do you suppose is correct in what they teach? The New Testament and the early church…or the modern whatsit?

**
My Christianity is not defined by your religion, but is determined by faith in my saviour, the Lord Jesus.

You could respect me by not naming me a n-c Christian. **

 

[undefined]

You presume to know my heart!? How extraordinary!
Galatians 4:16 Am I then become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

You have indeed misread! Let me just share with you something that you might understand. My Testimony

**Thank you for providing me with your insights.

I prefer to pray to God. **

 

[2ndGen]

:tsktsk:

Ok folks, let’s get back on topic here.

Now, are there any anti-Peterists here that can respond to the numerous examples of Peter’s leadership being instituted in scripture?

 

[undefined]

John 1:1 In the beginning the Word already existed. He was with God, and he was God.

The revelation you chose to use didn’t exist until The Gospels.

Is God’s revelation not true?