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guanophore
Guest
You clearly have much to learn about your family history. It is likely that the vast majority of your Christianity is, indeed, defined by Catholicism, either affirmatively, or in rebellion thereof.
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undefined
Guest
**My Christianity is not defined by your religion, but is determined by faith in my saviour, the Lord Jesus.
You could respect me by not naming me a n-c Christian.
**
You could respect me by not naming me a n-c Christian.
**
**I thought that Christianity was all about Jesus. **
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MrStain
Guest
My belief in the teachings of the Word of God made flesh as passed on by the Apostles both verbally & written. Remember, not all Jesus taught is contained in Sacred Scripture. That of course is for another thread.
Why are you so certain of your interpretation of Sacred Scripture? Are you going to tell me the Holy Spirit guides you in all your readings of Scripture? Somehow, I think that will be your answer and thus I will then wonder how the Holy Spirit has guided Protestantism into 30,000 versions of the truth? Something tells me it’s not the Holy Spirit at all.
ETA: It’s bed time. Peace be with you.
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guanophore
Guest
I personally didn’t call you any kind of name, but the sentiments of another poster who used the word “rude” certainly seems to apply. I am curious what your purpose is coming here. You asked how we could be sure that we were not being taught lies.
Is that because you believe the Catholic Church has departed from the Truth of the Word of God?
It is, and Jesus founded a Church, and put His Apostles in charge of it. He told them that people who reject them, reject Him. If you are rejecting the authority passed on by the Apostles, then you are rejecting Jesus. There is no distinction between Jesus and the Church He founded.
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2ndGen
Guest
HE WAS TALKING TO THE APOSTLES.
HERE, HE WAS GIVING THEM THE SAME AUTHORITY THAT HE FIRST GAVE TO PETER IN MATTHEW 16.
THUS, THE MAGISTARIUM IS BORN.
AND SINCE PETER IS THE LEADER OF THE APOSTLES (AGAIN, JOHN 21), HE WOULD DECIDE WHAT IT WAS THAT THEY WOULD DECIDE AND/OR DISCUSS.
YOU’LL SEE IN THE POST GOSPEL BOOKS THAT PETER LED THE COUNSELS, WAS ALWAYS THE FIRST TO SPEAK, AND WAS ALWAYS THE LAST TO SPEAK. HE HAD FINAL AUTHORITY ON WHAT ISSUES WERE BEING HAMMERED OUT AT THE TIME.
EVEN PAUL HAD TO MEET WITH PETER BEFORE HE COULD START HIS MINISTRY.
MATTHEW 18:18 SHOWS THAT JESUS NOT ONLY GAVE PETER THE AUTHORITY TO DECIDE MATTERS OF RELATING TO THE CHURCH, BUT THAT PETER HAD A COUNCIL TO BACK UP HIS DECISIONS.
BECAUSE PETER FILLS IN JESUS’ SHOES WHEN HE TURNED OVER THE RIEGNS TO PETER WHEN HE WAS ASSUMPTED TO HEAVEN, THE APOSTLE BECAME TO PETER WHAT THEY WERE TO CHRIST…THEY BECAME “HIS” SHEEP, AS JESUS TOLD PETER TO BE THEIR SHEPHARD.
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2ndGen
Guest
I’M ALL FOR ANSWERING YOUR QUESTIONS, BUT I EXPECT THE SAME COURTESY BEFORE WE MOVE ON TO OTHER QUESTIONS, SO I’LL ASK YOU AGAIN:
YOU SEEM FOND OF QUOTING SCRIPTURE TO ANSWER QUESTIONS, CAN YOU QUOTE SOME TO ANSWER THE QUESTIONS I POSED TO YOU PROVING THAT ISAIAH CALLED JESUS CHRIST SPECIFICALLY “LORD”?
AND IF ROCK AUTOMATICALLY MEANS LORD,
THEN DID JESUS CALL SIMON “LORD” WHEN HE CHANGED HIS NAME TO ROCK?
OF COURSE, IF YOU DON’T HAVE AN ANSWER,
THEN I’LL JUST HAVE TO DO TO YOU,
WHAT JESUS DID TO THE PHARISEES WHO COULDN’T ANSWER HIS QUESTIONS…I’LL NOT ANSWER YOURS.
Matthew 21:23-27
23And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching, and said, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority?
24And Jesus answered and said unto them, I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me, I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things.
25The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him?
26But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people; for all hold John as a prophet.
27And they answered Jesus, and said, We cannot tell. And he said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.
SO, IF YOU CAN’T ANSWER MY QUESTIONS, THEN NEITHER TELL I YOU WHAT YOU WANT TO KNOW.
S
SPH1
Guest
You’re correct. And that foundation - Christ - said that Peter would be the visible foundation of Christ’s Church.
IMO, no Protestant can seriously say that Christ is the foundation of the Church, except perhaps in some symbolic, figurehead sense. For they believe that the Church fell into serious heresy for some 1,000+ years.
Catholics, on the otherhand, take Christ as foundation realistically. It is the basis for our Church’s infallability.
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2ndGen
Guest
Allow me Brother SPH…
1 Cor 3:10-11
“According to the grace of God which was given to me,
as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation,
and another builds on it.
But let each one take heed how he builds on it.
For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.”
That scripture taken in context (notice how Protestants never include verse 10 with verse 11) is literally stating that Paul has laid a foundation and that others (Apostles or Church leaders who are the only ones to build upon what Paul lays down) build upon it (Apostolic Succession, The Magistarium, etc…).
Now, in verse 11, he states that Jesus “laid” the foundation, not that Jesus “is” the foundation. In fact, no where in The Holy Bible does it state that Jesus is the foundation. Jesus laid the foundation initially (which are The Apostles). The Apostles continued to build upon what Jesus laid initially (He transferred His ministry to them).
So, here Paul isn’t saying that Jesus is the foundation, but that He Paul laid his foundation (of Ecclesiastical Knowledge and teaching) upon the foundation that Jesus planted and on what The Apostles built up before him.
Now, if Paul had meant that only Jesus could have laid any foundation or that Jesus Himself was the foundation, then that would totally undo verse 11. It’s impossibe for Jesus to be the foundation and for The Apostles to be the foundation at the same time.
Jesus is the cornerstone. Now, anybody who knows anything about a cornerstone knows that it is the stone that is “first” laid and it leads the other stones of the foundation that fall in line right behind it.
Jesus is the chief stone, the Apostles the foundation stones that follow it, and as The Church grows, more foundation is layed to accomodate the expansion of The Church.
Also, the Church is built upon the foundation.
The Church is not “on top” of Jesus.
Jesus is the cap, the top stone, the last piece in it’s construction that is engraved with the structure’s name and the date it was built.
The foundation is buried under the construction (the greatest becoming the least).
The Capstone (Jesus) is visible so that every body knows what the structure is.
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mdcpensive1
Guest
It is interesting that Undefined talks like he is not a member of a church but is an individualist believing in Jesus. If we go back to Matthew 16 and know that Jesus started a Church, the word for Church means a “gathering”. The body of Christ is the one to gather for worship of the Lord, not just an individual all by himself cut off from the body. John said we are all supposed to be “one” like the Father is with me (Christ). Undefined, how can we all be one together if we are all individualists and not a body?
mdcpensive1
mdcpensive1
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2ndGen
Guest
Precisely…Non-Denominational Christianity “is” a denomination of Christianity…it’s just and unamed, unguided, unled denomination. Reminds me alot of the Heresies of the early Church (sincerely, no insult intended there).
K
KathleenElsie
Guest
K
KathleenElsie
Guest
3:9-10 For we are God’s co-workers; you are God’s field, God’s building. 10 According to the grace of God given to me, like the wise master builder I laid the foundation, and another is building upon it. But each one must be careful how he builds upon it. 11 for no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ
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2ndGen
Guest
Might I offer up a few variations for comparison?
Isaiah 26:4
New American Standard Bible (©1995)"Trust in the LORD forever, For in GOD the LORD, we have an everlasting Rock.
GOD’S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Trust the LORD always, because the LORD, the LORD alone, is an everlasting rock.
King James Bible
Trust ye in the LORD for ever: for in the LORD JEHOVAH is everlasting strength:
American Standard Version
Trust ye in Jehovah for ever; for in Jehovah, even Jehovah, is an everlasting rock.
Bible in Basic English
Let your hope be in the Lord for ever: for the Lord Jah is an unchanging Rock.
Douay-Rheims Bible
You have hoped in the Lord for evermore, in the Lord God mighty for ever.
Darby Bible Translation
Confide ye in Jehovah for ever; for in Jah, Jehovah, is the rock of ages.
English Revised Version
Trust ye in the LORD for ever: for in the LORD JEHOVAH is an everlasting rock.
Jewish Publication Society Tanakh
Trust ye in the LORD for ever, for the LORD is GOD, an everlasting Rock.
Webster’s Bible Translation
Trust ye in the LORD for ever: for in the LORD JEHOVAH is everlasting strength:
World English Bible
Trust in Yahweh forever; for in Yah, Yahweh, is an everlasting Rock.
Young’s Literal Translation
Trust ye in Jehovah for ever, For in Jah Jehovah is a rock of ages
Notice that? The King James Bible (the basis for all Protestant bibles) doesn’t have the word “rock”.
Hmmm…
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2ndGen
Guest
Do Protestants now have to abandon that verse as a proof since it doesn’t exist in “their” version of “their” bible?
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MariaG
Guest
Which part is disrespectful to you.
Calling you a non-Catholic? Or Calling you a Christian?
This is not a spurious question. Many who visit here, do not care to be called Protestants because they say they are protesting nothing.
Since we are the Catholic Church, many here call those who are not Catholic, Non-Catholic Christians, rather than Protestants.
But you seem to find that disrespectful, yet won’t say why or what part you find disrespectful or why:shrug:
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2ndGen
Guest
In Jesus’ own words:
Jesus replied and told him,
"Blessed are you, Simon son of Yoanah,
that flesh and blood did not reveal it to you,
except my Father in heaven.
Jesus tells Simon that it God revealed to Peter what Peter was to answer…Peter received a grace from God to show Jesus whom He wanted to lead His Church
I am also telling you that you are the Rock [Peter]
and on this rock I am building my Church,
and the doors of sheol cannot draw it in.
Of course, here, Jesus proclaims that Simon is “the Rock” and upon Simon the Rock,
Jesus is building His Church
(further scriptures Eph would go on to support the teaching
that Jesus’ Church is built upon the foundation of the prophets
(OT) and The Apostles (NT) of which Peter is the head).
Jesus tells Peter that His Church would never be infiltrated by Satan. It will be uncorruptable. So The Church that was started historically by Peter is Jesus’ Church.
“To you I give the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven,
and whatever you bind on earth,
shall be bound in heaven
and whatever you undo on earth,
shall be undone in heaven.”
Jesus give Peter the authority of entry into Heaven.
In stating that his earthly decisions will be respected in Heaven,
Jesus is not automatically prioritizing Peter the man over Heaven.
It’s a further example of what Peter doing and deciding is by the revelation of God (a perfect precursor to this is Matthew 16:17).
Jesus replied and told him,
"Blessed are you, Simon son of Yoanah,
that flesh and blood did not reveal it to you,
except my Father in heaven.
Jesus tells Simon that it God revealed to Peter what Peter was to answer…Peter received a grace from God to show Jesus whom He wanted to lead His Church
I am also telling you that you are the Rock [Peter]
and on this rock I am building my Church,
and the doors of sheol cannot draw it in.
Of course, here, Jesus proclaims that Simon is “the Rock” and upon Simon the Rock,
Jesus is building His Church
(further scriptures Eph would go on to support the teaching
that Jesus’ Church is built upon the foundation of the prophets
(OT) and The Apostles (NT) of which Peter is the head).
Jesus tells Peter that His Church would never be infiltrated by Satan. It will be uncorruptable. So The Church that was started historically by Peter is Jesus’ Church.
“To you I give the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven,
and whatever you bind on earth,
shall be bound in heaven
and whatever you undo on earth,
shall be undone in heaven.”
Jesus give Peter the authority of entry into Heaven.
In stating that his earthly decisions will be respected in Heaven,
Jesus is not automatically prioritizing Peter the man over Heaven.
It’s a further example of what Peter doing and deciding is by the revelation of God (a perfect precursor to this is Matthew 16:17).
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