Peter's "confession"

[MarcoPolo]

Is there a Church document that shows that Peter is the rock and so ALSO is his confession upon which the faith is built???

 

[Jason_W]

Is there a Church document that shows that Peter is the rock and so ALSO is his confession upon which the faith is built???

Matt. 16:18-19 which is reflected in the CCC. 880 -882

The term confession was originally used to designate the burial place of a confessor or martyr.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Matt. 16:18-19 which is reflected in the CCC. 880 -882

The term confession was originally used to designate the burial place of a confessor or martyr.

I don’t see the term confession in any of those paragraphs.

 

[Jason_W]

i dont quite follow you here. what exactly are you looking for?

 

[MarcoPolo]

Is there a Church document that indicates that the “Rock” is both Peter himself and his confession? It’s easy to find references to Peter being the Rock himself. But I do not believe the Church excludes his confession as a meaning within that verse, no?

 

[rpp]

What do you mean by “Peter’s confession”?

 

[Verisimilitude]

What do you mean by “Peter’s confession”?

I’ll assume unless corrected that he is seeking something to the effect of a quote attributed to Peter as saying ‘Jesus made me the leader of our Church’.

 

[rpp]

Perhaps you are looking for John 21:15 - 19

15 When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Feed my lambs.”

16 He then said to him a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Tend my sheep.”

17 He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was distressed that he had said to him a third time, “Do you love me?” and he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” (Jesus) said to him, "Feed my sheep.

18 Amen, amen, I say to you, when you were younger, you used to dress yourself and go where you wanted; but when you grow old, you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go."

19 He said this signifying by what kind of death he would glorify God. And when he had said this, he said to him, “Follow me.”

 

[Genesis315]

Honestly, I think saying the rock is Peter’s confession of faith is an even greater support for the Catholic understanding of the ministry of his successor. His profession of faith is the standard by which the truth is discerned. Our Lord prays for his faith alone and also states that it is God that has revealed his confession to him, not flesh. Here St. Thomas Becket explains this well (my emphasis):
St. Thomas Becket:

The harvest is good and one reaper or even several would not suffice to gather all of it into the granary of the Lord. Yet the Roman Church remains the head of all the churches and the source of Catholic teaching. Of this there can be no doubt. Everyone know that the keys of the kingdom of heaven were given to Peter. Upon his faith and teaching the whole fabric of the Church will continue to be built until we all reach full maturity in Christ and attain to unity in faith and knowledge of the Son of God.

Of course many are needed to plant and many to water now that the faith has spread so far and the population become so great. Nevertheless, no matter who plants or waters, God gives no harvest unless what he plants is the faith of Peter, and unless he himself assents to Peter’s teaching. All important questions that arise among God’s people are referred to the judgment of Peter in the person for the Roman Pontiff. Under him the ministers of Mother Church exercise the powers committed to them, each in his own sphere of responsibility.

But, whether we say he is the rock, his confession of faith is the rock, or both, the meaning is the same. We, the Church, can rely on the teaching of Peter and his successors.

 

[Genesis315]

I don’t see the term confession in any of those paragraphs.

Here’s another paragraph that might help:

**552 **Simon Peter holds the first place in the college of the Twelve;283 Jesus entrusted a unique mission to him. Through a revelation from the Father, Peter had confessed: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Our Lord then declared to him: "You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it."284 Christ, the “living Stone”,285 thus assures his Church, built on Peter, of victory over the powers of death. Because of the faith he confessed Peter will remain the unshakable rock of the Church. His mission will be to keep this faith from every lapse and to strengthen his brothers in it.286

edit: here’s the one right on point:

**424 **Moved by the grace of the Holy Spirit and drawn by the Father, we believe in Jesus and confess: 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.'8 On the rock of this faith confessed by St. Peter, Christ built his Church.9

 

[Genesis315]

I found the one we have been looking for!

**424 **Moved by the grace of the Holy Spirit and drawn by the Father, we believe in Jesus and confess: 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.'8 On the rock of this faith confessed by St. Peter, Christ built his Church.9

 

[rpp]

I found the one we have been looking for!

**424 **Moved by the grace of the Holy Spirit and drawn by the Father, we believe in Jesus and confess: 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.'8 On the rock of this faith confessed by St. Peter, Christ built his Church.9

:doh2:

Forgot about that part of the “You are the Rock” exchange.

 

[Jason_W]

Is there a Church document that indicates that the “Rock” is both Peter himself and his confession? It’s easy to find references to Peter being the Rock himself. But I do not believe the Church excludes his confession as a meaning within that verse, no?

Im still trying to understand what exactly you mean by “his confession” are you referring to the Gospel which he preached?

as i stated earlier the term confession was originally used to designate the burial place of a confessor or martyr.

For a time the remains of Peter lay with those of Paul in a vault on the Appian Way at the place ad Catacumbas, where the Church of St. Sebastian (which on its erection in the fourth century was dedicated to the two Apostles) now stands. The remains had probably been brought thither at the beginning of the Valerian persecution in 258, to protect them from the threatened desecration when the Christian burial-places were confiscated. They were later restored to their former resting-place, and Constantine the Great had a magnificent basilica erected over the grave of St. Peter at the foot of the Vatican Hill. This basilica was replaced by the present St. Peter’s in the sixteenth century. The vault with the altar built above it (confessio) has been since the fourth century the most highly venerated martyr’s shrine in the West.

Among the most famous subterranean confessions of Rome are those in the churches of S. Martino al Monti; S. Lorenzo fuori le Mure, containing the bodies of St. Laurence and St. Stephen; S. Prassede containing the bodies of the two sisters Sts. Praxedes and Pudentiana. The most celebrated confession is that of St. Peter. Over the tomb of the Apostle Pope St. Anacletus built a memoria, which Constantine when building his basilica replaced with the Confession of St. Peter. Behind the brass statues of Sts. Peter and Paul is the niche over the grated floor which covers the tomb. In this niche is the gold coffer, the work of Benvenuto Cellini which contains the palliums to be sent to archbishops de corpore b. Petri according to the Constitution “Rerum ecclesiasticarum” of Benedict XIV (12 Aug., 1748). All through the Middle Ages the palliums after being blessed were let down through the grating on to the tomb of the Apostle, where they remained for a whole night (Phillips, Kirchenrecht, V, 624, n. 61). During the restoration of the present basilica in 1594 the floor gave way, revealing the tomb of St. Peter and on it the golden cross weighing 150 pounds placed there by Constantine, and inscribed with his own and his mother’s names.

You cand find more info by going to newadvent.org or any catholic encyclopedia. type in peter and click on prince of the apostles. or type in confession.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Here’s another paragraph that might help:

**552 **Simon Peter holds the first place in the college of the Twelve;283 Jesus entrusted a unique mission to him. Through a revelation from the Father, Peter had confessed: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Our Lord then declared to him: "You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it."284 Christ, the “living Stone”,285 thus assures his Church, built on Peter, of victory over the powers of death. Because of the faith he confessed Peter will remain the unshakable rock of the Church. His mission will be to keep this faith from every lapse and to strengthen his brothers in it.286

edit: here’s the one right on point:

**424 **Moved by the grace of the Holy Spirit and drawn by the Father, we believe in Jesus and confess: 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.'8 On the rock of this faith confessed by St. Peter, Christ built his Church.9

Outstanding! You see I am in a formal debate on another forum (on the Papacy) and my opponent is absolutizing St. John Chrysostom having said: “‘Thou art Peter, and upon this rock will I build my Church;’ that is, on the faith of his confession.”

Of course, he neglects or is not aware of what I will post next…that is, St. John Chrysostom saying: " when I say Peter, I mean the unbroken Rock, the unshaken foundation".

The Catechism paragraphs I will show how the Church still today reflects Chrysostom…that the richness of meaning within Scripture that is not exhausted when one truth is drawn from a verse.

 

[Jason_W]

Outstanding! You see I am in a formal debate on another forum (on the Papacy) and my opponent is absolutizing St. John Chrysostom having said: “‘Thou art Peter, and upon this rock will I build my Church;’ that is, on the faith of his confession.”

So your opponent is trying to say the Church was built on the faith of his confession and not Peter himself. is that correct?

That is true the Church was indeed built upon the confession that Jesus is the Son of God. but one has to consider why it was that Jesus asked the twelve “who do you say i am?” was it to test their faith? and when Peter spoke Jesus said flesh and blood hath not revealed this to you , but my Father in Heaven. God chose to reveal that Jesus was indeed the Christ, proclaimed by the Prophets, through Peter. Jesus gives a parable of the two men , one who built his house on sand and one who built his house on rock. when the storms came the house on rock stood firm while the house on sand was destroyed. It only takes a small amount of common sense to know that Jesus would need to entrust all that he revealed , to men who would faithfully teach others and who could faithfully pass on those teachings. these people we know as the Church. Jesus choose twelve, but not all twelve were the same, when it came to their character. we see some who desired to be first. and judas who was a theif and who betrayed Jesus. We know that Jesus could see what was in a mans heart and he must have seen something about Simon that he would change his name to Peter, which means rock. Jesus was not speaking to the eleven, but to Peter when he said “feed my sheep”

 

[Jason_W]

Its easy to see that if the enemy wants to destroy the Church he must attack its authority.Once the protestors broke away from the Church and determined they could make their own interpretations of the Holy Scripture,it wasnt long after that those who didnt agree with them would break away to start their own church, and when some didnt agree with them then they would go start their own church and so on and so on. now we have some 30,000 denomanations who all calim to be led by the Holy Spirit yet they all disagree with each other on certain doctrines or points of faith. the Catholic Church has held firm for over 2,000 years guided by the Holy Spirit of Truth. First because Christ said the gates of hell will not prevail agianst it. but also because of its hierarchy. the head of which are those we trust to feed us with the Truth. Peter spoke about those who would try to interpret scripture on their own authority.

2Peter 1:20-21 First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, 21 because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

2Peter 3:15-18 So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability. 18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Its easy to see that if the enemy wants to destroy the Church he must attack its authority.

Indeed. My debate cohort is trying very hard to deny any mention of a singular office of authority above all the bishops in the early Church. However, it is awfully hard to deny.

 

[Verisimilitude]

the Catholic Church has held firm for over 2,000 years guided by the Holy Spirit of Truth.

Just a small point of order that I fall in myself at times: If Pentecost happened a few weeks after the Resurrection which was sometime in 33-36 AD we can’t be over 2000 years old until 2033-2036.

 

[rpp]

Just a small point of order that I fall in myself at times: If Pentecost happened a few weeks after the Resurrection which was sometime in 33-36 AD we can’t be over 2000 years old until 2033-2036.

I have thought about this too.

But I thought it was about 30 AD?

Christ is born about 3 BC right? Begins a 3 year ministry at age 30 (28 AD, if you are wondering about the math, there is no year zero). His ministry lasted three years, AD 28, 29 and 30.

Crucified in 30 AD with Pentecost 50 days later.

Of course this all hinges up him being born in 3 BC.

Should we have a party?

While I think the math works, I hope people view this with a bit of sense of humor, it is not meant to be completely serious.

(Okay, back to the topic of this thread.)

 

[Jason_W]

lets be logical here. BC stands for before Christ correct? and AD after his death right? so how could he be born 3 years before himself? is 1 AD the first year after his death and ressurection or am i just confused? lol