Peters foundation of the church

[Church_Militant]

Jesus Christ did establish the Church but the Church as a whole is not infallible as it is led by man-

Can you show me that in the Word of God? That God left us a fallible Church led only by weak men who would fail in their duties to maintain faithful doctrine, and therefore allow the gates of hell to prevail against His church?

God never meant for the Church to be a building,

but a gathering of his followers…Again, can you show me where in the Word of God it teaches what I have bolded above?

God is the only infallible being in this reality and it’s non-sensual to say otherwise…

So then you are telling us that the Holy Spirit is incapable of guiding the Church and doing so in such a way that it does not teach doctrinal error? Your remark implies that God is too weak to see that His church does not pass on His teachings correctly? Personally, I see that more the case in those who have left the Catholic faith in the last 500 years and began their own faith communities founded on the teachings of men.

Again I say man is prone to mistakes and has a sinful nature… the Catholic Church is led by a man and is therefore fallible.

That may be true of n-C faith communities, and is certainly shown by the fruits of their modern widely divergent and errant teachings, but I don’t believe that you can provide and proof of such with regard to the Catholic Church. You are of course, welcome to open individual threads on anything that you feel fits that allegation and we will happily get into that with you, but so far all you have made is a rash generalization that lacks substantiation.

There were plenty of these churches back in St. Peter’s time, not just the Catholic Church.

Examples please and relevance to the Catholic faith?

You really do need to get your topics off on their own threads, because you derail this one with that allegation and that will get the thread closed.

 

[guanophore]

Jesus Christ did establish the Church but the Church as a whole is not infallible as it is led by man- God never meant for the Church to be a building, but a gathering of his followers.

I am puzzled about why you think Jesus was lying to the Apostles?

Matt 28:20
I am with you always, to the close of the age."

When do you think Jesus abandoned them?

John 16:13
13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth;

Why did the Spirit fail?

God is the only infallible being in this reality and it’s non-sensual to say otherwise…

I can accept that God’s way of doing things may not make sense to you, but that it is the way He set it up. Jesus cannot be separated from His Body, the Church.

Again I say man is prone to mistakes and has a sinful nature… the Catholic Church is led by a man and is therefore fallible.

The Head of the Church is Jesus, the Cornerstone, and the Author and Finisher of our faith. The Soul of the Church is the Holy Spirit. God is infallible.

There were plenty of these churches back in St. Peter’s time, not just the Catholic Church.

There is only one Church, Alfgeir. Jesus did not found “churches” but ONE CHURCH. It was being called Catholic at least by the year 110.

 

[Muede]

Can you show me that in the Word of God? That God left us a fallible Church led only by weak men who would fail in their duties to maintain faithful doctrine, and therefore allow the gates of hell to prevail against His church?Again, can you show me where in the Word of God it teaches what I have bolded above?So then you are telling us that the Holy Spirit is incapable of guiding the Church and doing so in such a way that it does not teach doctrinal error? Your remark implies that God is too weak to see that His church does not pass on His teachings correctly? Personally, I see that more the case in those who have left the Catholic faith in the last 500 years and began their own faith communities founded on the teachings of men.That may be true of n-C faith communities, and is certainly shown by the fruits of their modern widely divergent and errant teachings, but I don’t believe that you can provide and proof of such with regard to the Catholic Church. You are of course, welcome to open individual threads on anything that you feel fits that allegation and we will happily get into that with you, but so far all you have made is a rash generalization that lacks substantiation.Examples please and relevance to the Catholic faith?

You really do need to get your topics off on their own threads, because you derail this one with that allegation and that will get the thread closed.

No, I can’t, and I don’t need to. It is quite clear to my and everyone else’s eyes that the Catholic Church is being led by the Pope right now. The Gates of Hell will not prevail in stopping Christ’s followers from gathering, nor will it take influence on what the Holy Spirit speaks through us, but the physical portion I believe it can, we are sinners. The Church IS fallible in a sense… Only God is infallible and the only thing that makes a church 100% infallible is if the Holy Spirit is actually in their presence and speaking his words of wisdom- otherwise the physical portion of the Church is fallible and can be influenced by evil- Christ speaks of wolves in sheep’s clothing a couple times… False preachers and the likes… Again, the gates of Hell will not prevail in destroying God’s Church since it can be formed anywhere should Christ’s followers choose to form at that area… It will not prevail in altering the true teachings from God because God won’t allow it. and I also never said Christ left the Church in any form… so don’t put words in my mouth please.

I am not open to arguing here because my accounts usually only last for one post.

 

[Muede]

Again, can you show me where in the Word of God it teaches what I have bolded above?

Can you show me in the Word of God where it teaches the Church is a building? No, but there is more evidence that it is a gathering more than a building… Christ said where two or three gather in his name he will be there- he didn’t say Where two or three gather in my name a roof will be instantly cast over there head joined with a magnificent building so that a leading authority may teach to the other lesser individuals about what is right and wrong- Nope doesn’t say that… From my experience God has been very direct in His teachings, on salvation and meanings through parables… If you need to use private interpretation to justify a belief, it probably isn’t correct. Likewise, you can always use connections between verses to justify something, Like Salvation is by faith only, and Faith without works is dead… If your faith doesn’t yield works = dead faith… but that was just to prove to others on earth you had faith because the Holy Spirit that dwelled within you would have brought it forth naturally.

 

[guanophore]

Can you show me in the Word of God where it teaches the Church is a building? No, but there is more evidence that it is a gathering more than a building…

You are creating a strawman, Muede the Brief. No one here every claimed that the Church is a building. The Church is the Body of Christ.

Christ said where two or three gather in his name he will be there- he didn’t say Where two or three gather in my name a roof will be instantly cast over there head joined with a magnificent building so that a leading authority may teach to the other lesser individuals about what is right and wrong- Nope doesn’t say that…

You are right, you did add a few things. However, Jesus did say to His Apostles that whoever hears them, hears Him, and whoever rejects them, rejects Him, and the Father who sent Him. So, inasmuch as people have rejected the Apostolic Authority appointed by Christ, the presence of the HS among them has become compromised.

From my experience God has been very direct in His teachings, on salvation and meanings through parables…

If this is true, then how come there are so many interpretations of what it means?

 

[Unitas]

Can you show me in the Word of God where it teaches the Church is a building? No, but there is more evidence that it is a gathering more than a building… Christ said where two or three gather in his name he will be there- he didn’t say Where two or three gather in my name a roof will be instantly cast over there head joined with a magnificent building so that a leading authority may teach to the other lesser individuals about what is right and wrong- Nope doesn’t say that…

You alleged that the Catholic belief is that the Church is a building. CM never alleged the opposite. If all of the Churches were destroyed would there still be a Catholic Church? Most certainly. Two or three gathered in His name does not gaurantee infallibility.

As for the Church as a teaching body, you are quite mistaken:

Mat 28:18-19 “And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.”

John 20:21-22 “He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost.”

Jesus sent the apostles with the same authority that the father sent Him: with “all power in heaven and in earth”.

In 2Ti 2:2 we see the following:
“And the things which thou hast heard of me by many witnesses, the same commend to faithful men, who shall be fit to teach others also.”

Here we see Paul telling Timothy to teach mean what he has taught him, so that they may go on to teach others. This shows four “generations” so to say with succession; First Paul, second Timothy, third the men Timothy teaches, and fourth the men they will teach.

Here Paul stresses unity in doctrine:
1Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no schisms among you; but that you be perfect in the same mind, and in the same judgment. "

And again showing unity of faith:
Eph 4:3-5 “Careful to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. One body and one Spirit; as you are called in one hope of your calling. One Lord, one faith, one baptism.”

And again in verse 14-15:
“That henceforth we be no more children tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine by the wickedness of men, by cunning craftiness, by which they lie in wait to deceive. But doing the truth in charity, we may in all things grow up in him who is the head, even Christ:” Christ is mentioned again as the head of the church in Eph 5:23. To be united in doctrine is to be united to the Church, of which Christ is the head.

Again Paul stresses unity in orthodoxy as he exhorts Timothy to keep the faithful from learning error:
1Ti 1:3 “As I desired thee to remain at Ephesus when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some not to teach otherwise,”

And to the Galatians: “But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.”

Paul again teaches Timothy about the dangers of conflicting doctrines:
1Ti 4:1 “Now the Spirit manifestly saith, that in the last times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to spirits of error, and doctrines of devils,”

Paul now tells Titus about unity in doctrine:
Titus 1:9 “Embracing that faithful word which is according to doctrine, that he may be able to exhort in sound doctrine, and to convince the gainsayers.”

That proves the Church is a teaching body. Next we have which teachers we are to listen to:

The sucession of Judas by Matthias (Acts 1:20-26)
Reference to an apostle’s ministry as a “bishopric” (Acts 1:20)
Paul’s instructions on how to select Bishops (1Ti 3:1-5, Titus 1:7-9)
Paul’s preparation of Timothy to succeed him (2Ti 4:1-6)
Paul’s instructions to Timothy to teach other men that they may teach others (2Ti 2:2)
And that succession occurs with laying of hands in ordination by the previously ordained (1Ti 4:14,5:22, 2Ti 1:6)
The bishop is the shepherd of souls (1Peter 2:25)

The bishops have the authority to teach, and the office of bishop is transferrable. Because Jesus sent them the Holy Ghost to lead them into truth (John 14:26) and Jesus told them to teach and promised to be with them to the end of the age (Mat 28:20) the Church teaches infallibly.