Peter's Letter

[paarsurrey]

Hi

The PromisedMessiah 1835-1908 wrote in his book Braheen-e-Ahmadia Volume-V (Roohani Khazain Volume-21) in Urdu language published in 1905 (I convey its meaning in English for my friends in the forum). Quoting from the daily Corriere della Sera, the most famous newspaper of the Souhern Italy, he wrote that it had published the following novel News item in it:

On 13th July 1879, Koremara an old ascetic died in Jerusalem who was a reputed saint in his life. He had left behind some belongings; and the governor looked for his relatives and gave them twp hundred thousand francs ( equivalent to one lac and nineteen thousands rupees ) in coins of different countries which were found in the cave in which the ascetic used to live in for a long time. Alongwith the coins some manuscripts were found which were also handed over to his relatives, who were unable to read and understand the contents of the manuscripts. Some scholars who knew Hebrew happened to see them, they were surprised that the same were in very ancient Hebrew.

When these were studied/decyphered, it contained following writing: Peter fisherman, a servant to Jesus s/o Mary, addresses the people in the name of God and his will” and this letter had following ending. “ I, Peter, in the name of Jesus and in the ninetieth year of my life say these words in love of my master and lord Jesus s/o Mary after his three passovers (i.e. three years of his death ) in the vicinity of the house of Lord at the place of Bolier I have decided to write this”.
The scholars had surmised that his manuscript was from the times of Peter. London Bible Society had also come to the same conclusion, and after due examination of the same they wanted to purchase it with by one hunderd thousands Lira from the owners.

The prayer of Jesus s/o Mary: Peace be upon both of them. He said “ O’ my God, I am unable to refrain doing something I consider evil, nor I could acquire the goodness that I desired to attain. Other people have their reward with them while I cannot. My greatest virtue is in my work. Nobody is in worse condition than of mine.

O’ God ,the Greatest of all, forgive me my sins. O’ God do not put me under the blame of my adversaries. Do not belittle me in the eyes of my friends. Don’t do that so I ,because of my fearness of thee, may be put in trial. Don’t make this world my most desired ambition. Don’t put me under the hands of a person who is unkind to me. O’ God the most Merciful, do this with your Mercy and thou art most Merciful; you are kind to those who need your kindness ”.

Could somebody help me locate the letter with English Translation, as the above is free translation by me from the Urdu.

Aslo any comments from the friends in the forum on the contents of the letter.

Thanks

 

[ralphinal]

Paar,
Very interesting, but I have yet to find anything in English on it. In fact, I have tried all kinds of things and I cannot find it. I’lll keep trying.

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi

Peter wrote this letter as stated by him when he was 90 years of age and that was as he says after three years of ( death of) Jesus.
Any guess what was Peter’s age when he died? What was Peter’s age when the event of Crucifixion of Jesus took place? When was Peter born?

Your opinion, comments please.

Thanks

 

[swariffin]

Dear Paar,

Your news is interesting indeed. However, I cannot make any comment on the Hebrew documents. It is interesting to know what the Papirologists say about such documents.

About the age of Peter during the crucifixtion, I believe no one can determine that accurately. However, I am sure that the moment that Peter was called to follow Jesus, he was already more than 30 years of age. But, if you said Peter was 90 when he wrote that documents (according to you), and that was 3 years after the crucifixtion, it should be impossible.

It means that Peter was already 87 years old when he and the other deciples who were called by Jesus to “throw the net to the right hand side of the boat” at the side of the lake of Galilee (John 21:3). I doubt that a man of 87 years of age was capable of fishing all night long.

So, based on John 21:3, I doubt that your documents saying that Peter was already 90 years old (3 years after the crucifixtion) are accurate. However, scientific study must be done to determine when those writing came from, and what age the documents are. Before we learn those fact objectively, it will be too early to make definitive claims.

 

[ralphinal]

Paar,

If the dates used by the Church are correct, Peter died many, many years after the Crucifixion, which according to this letter would make him well over 100. This was not unheard of, but he was martyred at that.

 

[paarsurrey]

Paar,
If the dates used by the Church are correct, Peter died many, many years after the Crucifixion, which according to this letter would make him well over 100. This was not unheard of, but he was martyred at that.

Hi ralphinal!

I find following about Peter’s death in wikipedia:

The Annuario Pontificio gives the year of Peter’s death as A.D. 64 or A.D. 67. Some scholars believe that he died on October 13 A.D. 64. It is traditionally believed that the Roman authorities sentenced him to death by crucifixion.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Peter

It is not essential that Peter might have been martyred, in my opinion. There are some accounts that Peter’s tomb is in Jerusalem not in Rome as commonly believed. That might change the scenario, I think.

Thanks

 

[ralphinal]

Hi ralphinal!

I find following about Peter’s death in wikipedia:

The Annuario Pontificio gives the year of Peter’s death as A.D. 64 or A.D. 67. Some scholars believe that he died on October 13 A.D. 64. It is traditionally believed that the Roman authorities sentenced him to death by crucifixion.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Peter

It is not essential that Peter might have been martyred, in my opinion. There are some accounts that Peter’s tomb is in Jerusalem not in Rome as commonly believed. That might change the scenario, I think.

Thanks

Let us look at it from your letter. If he wrote it three years after the crucifixion, he would ahve died at 120+. Again, possible but doubtful.

As far as his resting place goes, history shows that he was in Rome. He may have been burried there. There is proof both ways. It is also possible that he died in Rome and later was moved. Again, that does happen.

I am still not able to find any information on that letter on line. DO you have any more information on it?

 

[paarsurrey]

Let us look at it from your letter. If he wrote it three years after the crucifixion, he would ahve died at 120+. Again, possible but doubtful.
As far as his resting place goes, history shows that he was in Rome. He may have been burried there. There is proof both ways. It is also possible that he died in Rome and later was moved. Again, that does happen.
I am still not able to find any information on that letter on line. DO you have any more information on it?

Hi

I checked wikipedia under different heads for more information, I also googled, I could not trace the letter, in fact I found that my OP in this thread found its place there.

The PromisedMessiah 1835-1908 had mentioned of the newspaper, I checked with wikipedia and I found that Corriere della Sera, is still the most famous newspaper of the Souhern Italy and it is working in the same building as 100 years ago. The newspaper is in Italian language, maybe they have the original newspaper of that period. I intended to send an e-mail but I could not find any e-mail address. If somebody who knows Italian language may find some information from them.

Thanks for your interest .

I suggest; Peter mentions having written the letter after three years of Jesus. You are basing your calculation from the event of Crucifixion, that you would do naturally being a Catholic, but we Ahmadis believed that Jesus survived and lived longer in Kashmir, India. Please take up this factor for basing your calculation.

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Originally posted by ralphinal

I am still not able to find any information on that letter on line. DO you have any more information on it?

Hi

Any further information

Thanks

 

[FCEGM]

This seems to be a pro-Islamic forgery. There are several Islamic expressions in the text, including referring to Jesus as “Jesus son of Mary.” While the writing (if correctly reported) may be in ancient Hebrew, that specific expression - identifying a man as the son of a particular woman - would be unthinkable to an ancient Jew. No one in Jewish antiquity was identified by their mother; and the text implies both a developed belief in the Virgin Birth (which is a strong Islamic belief) and a developed devotion to Mary (which the Muslims also have).

The text also reveals a conscious after-the-fact preoccupation with the Gospel of John (John’s three recorded Passovers), which is not something you’d expect Peter to mention or care to mention, e.g. the Gospel of John was written 30 years after Peter’s death. Also, the phrases “God [Allah] Most Merciful” and “kind to those who need kindness” are lifted straight from the Koran.

There is also a mathematical problem, since it claims that Peter was 90 when he wrote this. If we take the absolutely latest possible date for Peter’s death, which is A.D. 67 (Nero was killed right after this, and we know that Peter died under Nero) and make him 90 at this time; and then take this back to A.D. 29, the year of the Crucifixion, that would make Peter 52 at the time of Jesus’ death, and so (according to the same Gospel of John used by the quote) 19 years older than Jesus. There is no tradition of such an age gap between Jesus and Peter, nor is there any tradition (in contrast to that of John) that Peter lived to an advanced age like 90.

Lastly, there’s the matter of Peter calling himself a “fisherman.” In all of the extant writings, Peter calls himself an “Apostle” or a “witness” or a “slave of Christ” or even a “presbyter.” There would be no need to call himself a “fisherman” in a Church-related document.

 

[roanoker]

Couldn’t it have been written by some other Peter, not the Apostle? Roanoker

 

[paarsurrey]

This seems to be a pro-Islamic forgery. There are several Islamic expressions in the text, including referring to Jesus as “Jesus son of Mary.” While the writing (if correctly reported) may be in ancient Hebrew, that specific expression - identifying a man as the son of a particular woman - would be unthinkable to an ancient Jew. No one in Jewish antiquity was identified by their mother; and the text implies both a developed belief in the Virgin Birth (which is a strong Islamic belief) and a developed devotion to Mary (which the Muslims also have).

The text also reveals a conscious after-the-fact preoccupation with the Gospel of John (John’s three recorded Passovers), which is not something you’d expect Peter to mention or care to mention, e.g. the Gospel of John was written 30 years after Peter’s death. Also, the phrases “God [Allah] Most Merciful” and “kind to those who need kindness” are lifted straight from the Koran.

There is also a mathematical problem, since it claims that Peter was 90 when he wrote this. If we take the absolutely latest possible date for Peter’s death, which is A.D. 67 (Nero was killed right after this, and we know that Peter died under Nero) and make him 90 at this time; and then take this back to A.D. 29, the year of the Crucifixion, that would make Peter 52 at the time of Jesus’ death, and so (according to the same Gospel of John used by the quote) 19 years older than Jesus. There is no tradition of such an age gap between Jesus and Peter, nor is there any tradition (in contrast to that of John) that Peter lived to an advanced age like 90.

Lastly, there’s the matter of Peter calling himself a “fisherman.” In all of the extant writings, Peter calls himself an “Apostle” or a “witness” or a “slave of Christ” or even a “presbyter.” There would be no need to call himself a “fisherman” in a Church-related document.

Hi

Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

The point is that it was published in an Italian famous newspaper. Bible Society intended to purchase as mentioned in the newspaper. The PromisedMessiah 1835-1908 published it in his 2/3 books, now spread over many countries and also available online. Nobody during his lifetime, to my knowledge, did describe it fake.

This is an era of research, I think, we should research first for the letter in Hebrew and then translated in Italian and English.

Do you agree with me? I think my frieds here would agree.

Thanks

 

[FCEGM]

Hi

Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

The point is that it was published in an Italian famous newspaper. Bible Society intended to purchase as mentioned in the newspaper. The PromisedMessiah 1835-1908 published it in his 2/3 books, now spread over many countries and also available online. Nobody during his lifetime, to my knowledge, did describe it fake.

This is an era of research, I think, we should research first for the letter in Hebrew and then translated in Italian and English.

Do you agree with me? I think my frieds here would agree.

Thanks

And The DaVinci Code sold over 200 million copies, but, that doesn’t make it true. It merely shows that people will believe anything.

 

[paarsurrey]

And The DaVinci Code sold over 200 million copies, but, that doesn’t make it true. It merely shows that people will believe anything.

Hi

But people refuted “The DaVinci Code” when it was published. There is nothing on record, to my knowledge, any people refuting the "Peter’s letter " when it was published in Italian Newspaper in Italy, or in English or in Urdu when the books of PromisedMessiah 1835-1908 were published.

Kindly help search the letter.

Thanks