Peters restoration by the Lord Jesus – Feed my sheep

[PJM]

=Tanner9188;5548877]**No one would argue with what Scripture plainly states, which is feed my sheep, which is preach the word and lead the other apostles, but it stops there upon Peter’s entrance to heaven. The fact that Paul had to rebuke Peter for what amounts to another gospel proves he could not be the head of the church; would a Bishop dare to tell the poope he was wrong in teaching Catholic doctrine; I don’t believe so.
**
You should heed the words of this passage; follow Christ.

**You are halfway to understanding, but 1/2 is not good enough.
**

***Hi Tanner

I am able to offer additioanl biblical evidence of each of the points that I put forth.

You’re accusations are cute, but seem unsupported by anything that is biblical. In that I orivided bivle verses and you supplied cute opinions, I’ll have to stick with what I shared from Gods Divine Word. If you have other evidence to bring forward, I will be most happy to take you’re charges seriously and provide additional evidence of our Catholic Position…

In rereading Mt. 16:15-19 did you happen to notice the singular tense *, and key’s to heaven? Oh yea, and what about the “gates of hell shall not prevail against it?” Do you have any understanding of what these verses are saying?

Love and prayers dear friend,****

 

[PJM]

Proofs of the Primacy of Peter…

**Petrine Proofs

“When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?’ He said to him, ‘Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.’ He said to him, ‘Feed my lambs.’ A second time he said to him, ‘Simon, son of John, do you love me?’ He said to him, ‘Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.’ He said to him, ‘Tend my sheep.’ He said to him the third time, ‘Simon, son of John, do you love me?’ Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time; ‘Do you love me?’ And he said to him,’ Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.’ Jesus said to him, ‘Feed my sheep. ” Jn: 21: 15- 17

Mt: 16:18: “And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church; and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.”

The rock (Greek, petra) referred to here is St. Peter himself, not his faith or Jesus Christ. Christ appears here not as the foundation, but as the architect who “builds.” The Church is built, not on confessions, but on confessors - living men (see, e.g., 1 Pet 2:5. Today, the overwhelming consensus of the great majority of all-biblical scholars and commentators is in favor of the traditional Catholic understanding. Here St. Peter is spoken of as the foundation-stone of the Church, making him head and superior of the family of God (i.e., the seed of the doctrine of the papacy).

**Mt. 16:19 **“I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven . . .”
The “power of the keys” has to do with ecclesiastical discipline and administrative authority with regard to the requirements of the faith, as in Isaiah . From this power flows the use of censures, excommunication, absolution, baptismal discipline, the imposition of penances, and legislative powers

Mt: 16:19 “.whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

“Binding” and “loosing” were technical rabbinical terms, which meant to “forbid” and “permit” with reference to the interpretation of the law, and secondarily to “condemn” or “place under the ban” or “acquit.” Thus, St. Peter and the popes are given the authority to determine the rules for doctrine and life, by virtue of revelation and the Spirit’s leading , and to demand obedience from the Church. “Binding and loosing” represent the legislative and judicial powers of the papacy and the bishops St. Peter, however, is the only apostle who receives these powers by name and in the singular, making him preeminent.

Peter’s name occurs first in all lists of apostles. Matthew even calls him the “first”. Judas Iscariot is invariably mentioned last.

Peter is regarded by Jesus as the Chief Shepherd after Himself Jn 21:15-17, singularly by name, and over the universal Church, even though others have a similar but subordinate role

Peter alone among the apostles is mentioned by name as having been prayed for by Jesus Christ in order that his “faith may not fail” Lk 22:32.

Peter alone among the apostles is exhorted by Jesus to “strengthen your brethren” Lk 22:32.

Peter first confesses Christ’s divinity Mt 16:16.

Peter is regarded by the Jews Acts 4:1-13 as the leader and spokesman of Christianity.

Peter is specified by an angel as the leader ** Mk 16:7.**

Peter’s words are the first recorded and most important in the upper room before Pentecost Acts 1:15-22.

Peter takes the lead in calling for a replacement for Judas Acts 1:22.

Peter is the first person to speak (and only one recorded) after Pentecost, so he was the first Christian to “preach the gospel” in the Church era Acts 2:14-36

Peter works the first miracle of the Church Age, healing a lame man Acts 3:6-12

Peter utters the first anathema (Ananias and Sapphira) emphatically affirmed by God Acts 5:2-11

Peter is the first person after Christ to raise the dead Acts 9:40.

Peter is the first to receive the Gentiles, after a revelation from God Acts 10:9-48.

Peter instructs the other apostles on the catholicity (universality) of the Church Acts 11:5-17.

Peter is the object of the first divine interposition on behalf of an individual in the Church Acts 12:1-17.

Peter presides over and opens the first Council of Christianity, and lays down principles afterwards accepted by it Acts 15:7-11.

Peter is the first to recognize and refute heresy, in Simon Magus Acts 8:14-24.

Peter’s name is mentioned more often than all the other disciples put together: 191 times(162 as Peter or Simon Peter, 23 as Simon, and 6 as Cephas). John is next in frequency with only 48 appearances, and Peter is present 50% of the time we find John in the Bible! Archbishop Fulton Sheen reckoned that all the other disciples combined were mentioned 130 times. **If this is correct, Peter is named a remarkable 60% of the time any disciple is referred to! **

Peter’s proclamation at Pentecost Acts 2:14 contains a fully authoritative interpretation of Scripture, a doctrinal decision and a disciplinary decree concerning members of the “House of Israel” - an example of “binding and loosing.”

Peter commanded the first Gentile Christians to be baptized Acts 10:44-48.

Peter corrects those who misuse Paul’s writings 2 Pet 3:15-1.

**

 

[jlhargus]

John 10:16 "And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd. When will this be fulfilled?; when all the redeemed throughout history are brought together in the New Heaven and New Earth.

JL: The other sheep are the Gentiles, which were not of Christ’s fold till after Pentecost. Now we are ONE FLOCK, where there is neither Greek or Jew.

 

[Tanner9188]

***Hi Tanner

I am able to offer additioanl biblical evidence of each of the points that I put forth.

You’re accusations are cute, but seem unsupported by anything that is biblical. In that I orivided bivle verses and you supplied cute opinions, I’ll have to stick with what I shared from Gods Divine Word. If you have other evidence to bring forward, I will be most happy to take you’re charges seriously and provide additional evidence of our Catholic Position…

In rereading Mt. 16:15-19 did you happen to notice the singular tense *, and key’s to heaven? Oh yea, and what about the “gates of hell shall not prevail against it?” Do you have any understanding of what these verses are saying?

Love and prayers dear friend,****
The word “you” is an indefinite pronoun and can be used as singular or plural. The audience is the apostles, see the first verse and the last verse, Peter, being the general spokesperson for the group; speaks up and makes the confession, which is a revelation that Jesus is the Christ, the awaited Messiah.

The term key is used in both the Old and new testament and refers to the kingdom; with one exception. In Revelation 3; “keys” relates to death and hades, which is not the kingdom. Therefore based on the evidence and the audience, the observation of the reality (i.e. the day of Pentecost, when all of the Apostles preached (Peter first)); we can easily conclude the object of the indefinite pronoun “you” is the plural for; which menas He gave each Apostle the “Key”, thus the words “I will give you the keys to the kingdom”, plus we know that all the apostles had the power to loose and bind, along with anyone that can present the message…this is reality. (Matthew 18). In addition there is one heaven in this picture, which would require how many keys? One; loosing would be the equivalent to unlocking the door to allow entrance and not unlocking the door would be “you remain in your sin and the entrance to heaven is unopened/locked to you.”

Then verse 20; Then He warned the disciples that they should tell no one that He was the Christ.

Obviously; they all received the revelation and Jesus must have known they all believed the confession, which can only be believed if it is revealed from heaven, which had to be the case since He warned all of them.

 

[Tanner9188]

Proofs of the Primacy of Peter…

Petrine Proofs

“When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?’ He said to him, ‘Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.’ He said to him, ‘Feed my lambs.’ A second time he said to him, ‘Simon, son of John, do you love me?’ He said to him, ‘Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.’ He said to him, ‘Tend my sheep.’ He said to him the third time, ‘Simon, son of John, do you love me?’ Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time; ‘Do you love me?’ And he said to him,’ Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.’ Jesus said to him, ‘Feed my sheep. ” Jn: 21: 15- 17

Mt: 16:18: “And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church; and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.”

The rock (Greek, petra) referred to here is St. Peter himself, not his faith or Jesus Christ. Christ appears here not as the foundation, but as the architect who “builds.” The Church is built, not on confessions, but on confessors - living men (see, e.g., 1 Pet 2:5. Today, the overwhelming consensus of the great majority of all-biblical scholars and commentators is in favor of the traditional Catholic understanding. Here St. Peter is spoken of as the foundation-stone of the Church, making him head and superior of the family of God (i.e., the seed of the doctrine of the papacy).

**Mt. 16:19 **“I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven . . .”
The “power of the keys” has to do with ecclesiastical discipline and administrative authority with regard to the requirements of the faith, as in Isaiah . From this power flows the use of censures, excommunication, absolution, baptismal discipline, the imposition of penances, and legislative powers

Mt: 16:19 “.whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

“Binding” and “loosing” were technical rabbinical terms, which meant to “forbid” and “permit” with reference to the interpretation of the law, and secondarily to “condemn” or “place under the ban” or “acquit.” Thus, St. Peter and the popes are given the authority to determine the rules for doctrine and life, by virtue of revelation and the Spirit’s leading , and to demand obedience from the Church. “Binding and loosing” represent the legislative and judicial powers of the papacy and the bishops St. Peter, however, is the only apostle who receives these powers by name and in the singular, making him preeminent.

Peter’s name occurs first in all lists of apostles. Matthew even calls him the “first”. Judas Iscariot is invariably mentioned last.

Peter is regarded by Jesus as the Chief Shepherd after Himself Jn 21:15-17, singularly by name, and over the universal Church, even though others have a similar but subordinate role

Peter alone among the apostles is mentioned by name as having been prayed for by Jesus Christ in order that his “faith may not fail” Lk 22:32.

Peter alone among the apostles is exhorted by Jesus to “strengthen your brethren” Lk 22:32.

Peter first confesses Christ’s divinity Mt 16:16.

Peter is regarded by the Jews Acts 4:1-13 as the leader and spokesman of Christianity.

Peter is specified by an angel as the leader ** Mk 16:7.**

Peter’s words are the first recorded and most important in the upper room before Pentecost Acts 1:15-22.

Peter takes the lead in calling for a replacement for Judas Acts 1:22.

Peter is the first person to speak (and only one recorded) after Pentecost, so he was the first Christian to “preach the gospel” in the Church era Acts 2:14-36

Peter works the first miracle of the Church Age, healing a lame man Acts 3:6-12

Peter utters the first anathema (Ananias and Sapphira) emphatically affirmed by God Acts 5:2-11

Peter is the first person after Christ to raise the dead Acts 9:40.

Peter is the first to receive the Gentiles, after a revelation from God Acts 10:9-48.

Peter instructs the other apostles on the catholicity (universality) of the Church Acts 11:5-17.

Peter is the object of the first divine interposition on behalf of an individual in the Church Acts 12:1-17.

Peter presides over and opens the first Council of Christianity, and lays down principles afterwards accepted by it Acts 15:7-11.

Peter is the first to recognize and refute heresy, in Simon Magus Acts 8:14-24.

Peter’s name is mentioned more often than all the other disciples put together: 191 times(162 as Peter or Simon Peter, 23 as Simon, and 6 as Cephas). John is next in frequency with only 48 appearances, and Peter is present 50% of the time we find John in the Bible! Archbishop Fulton Sheen reckoned that all the other disciples combined were mentioned 130 times. **If this is correct, Peter is named a remarkable 60% of the time any disciple is referred to! **

Peter’s proclamation at Pentecost Acts 2:14 contains a fully authoritative interpretation of Scripture, a doctrinal decision and a disciplinary decree concerning members of the “House of Israel” - an example of “binding and loosing.”

Peter commanded the first Gentile Christians to be baptized Acts 10:44-48.

Peter corrects those who misuse Paul’s writings 2 Pet 3:15-1.

Shows Jesus picked Peter to lead the apostles, just as John 20 indicates; it is a far theological stretch and reality stretch to take a leap of faith to see this as succession and the invention of the Pope - get a grip; that interpretation violates all interpretations rules in one big sweep. Everyone spoke on the day of Pentecost unless Peter was simultaneously speaking several languages all at the same time, but that is not what the passage says - get a grip and stop focusing on the messenger and focus on the message, which is the gospel of grace, which is the Person of Christ.

 

[PJM]

=Tanner9188-The word “you” is an indefinite pronoun and can be used as singular or plural. The audience is the apostles, see the first verse and the last verse, Peter, being the general spokesperson for the group; speaks up and makes the confession, which is a revelation that Jesus is the Christ, the awaited Messiah.

Friend you are trying harder to disprove truth than I am in sharing it

Let’s allow Jesus to put it proper context for you.

*Mt. 16: 15 "He [Jesus] said to them, “But who do **you ***say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I tell you, **you are Peter, and on this rock [singular !] I will build my church [also singular !] **, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you [He is speaking to first person singular: Peter !] the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

The term key is used in both the Old and new testament and refers to the kingdom; with one exception. In Revelation 3; “keys” relates to death and hades, which is not the kingdom. Therefore based on the evidence and the audience, the observation of the reality (i.e. the day of Pentecost, when all of the Apostles preached (Peter first)); we can easily conclude the object of the indefinite pronoun “you” is the plural for; which menas He gave each Apostle the “Key”, thus the words “I will give you the keys to the kingdom”, plus we know that all the apostles had the power to loose and bind, along with anyone that can present the message…this is reality. (Matthew 18). In addition there is one heaven in this picture, which would require how many keys?

One; loosing would be the equivalent to unlocking the door to allow entrance and not unlocking the door would be “you remain in your sin and the entrance to heaven is unopened/locked to you.”

Indeed throuh Peter, the other Apostles, Current and past Popes, Bishops and Priest do also have the keys [plural] to heaven as is necessary for the continuation of THEE Church Christ Founded. [Please see my next post for more biblical evidence of Peter.]

As to your question as to how many keys? While I will not enumerate all of them, here are MORE THAN ONE!

Jh.3:5 Baptism is necessary for salvation

Mt.19:16 Keeping ALL of Gods Commandments are necessary for salvation

2 Cor. 4: 2 “We have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways; we refuse to practice cunning or to tamper with God’s word, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing.

1 Peter 4: 17 For the time has come for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18 And “If the righteous man is scarcely saved, where will the impious and sinner appear?”

Phil.2: 12 “Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13* for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.”

John 20:2 "Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” 22* And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

What do to “lose and to bind” actually mean? [Mt.16:19 ans 18:18]

Who? Jesus the Christ (Mt. 16:16) The Son of God. All Knowing - all Wise - all everything Good. A key element of Gods Perfect Goodness is that God is and has to be “All-Fair and All Just.”

***The words used by Jesus are carefully selected to insure proper understanding.

This is part of the discourse in which Christ makes clear in unambiguous language that He intends to: 1. Form His Church (singular use of “I” and “you” and “church.” 2. That it is to be only ONE church. 3. That Peter is given the access (gate keys) to heaven. 4. Peter (and Peter alone) is given all of the power and authority to govern with COMPLETE autonomous authority, answering ONLY to God [the King] Himself***!

To “bind” and to “loose” were common, rabbinical, legally binding at Law terms for exactly that! Complete, and free governance. Jesus, Peter and all that heard knew exactly what Jesus meant! Exactly what Jesus meant!

Mt. 16:13: “Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do men say that the Son of man is?” [CP was the site of the areas largest Pagan temple.]

The location Jesus chooses is a clear indication of the Mission of His Church, and Peter and the Apostles. “Overcome, do away with pagan worship.” Jesus not only gives His Church this Mission, He gives His Church all of the tools and authority needed to accomplish it!

Why? Why indeed! Jesus knew from the moment of his Conception in the Virgin womb of His Mother, what Gods plan (His Plan) was. He knew that he would suffer and die that He would rise from the Dead, and be our Redeemer. He further knew that (Mt. 22:14 “14 For many are called, but few are chosen." The word “chosen, in this context means “chosen BY US!” In other words, many will deny, and many will die because of unbelief, because of the personal choice we make.

Jesus clearly knew what lie in store for His Deciples and the persecution His Church, and His Deciples, would have to face. This is precisely why the mandate, why the authority, why the church, why they too would die professing that Christ is Lord! That Jesus remains present “ Really Present,” why Jesus instituted the Seven Sacraments. All this so that His Church would have the power and the authority, the tools and the grace, to become the “Narrow Gate” of Christ plan for our Salvation. (Mt. 7:13.)

The “Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven” is a literal statement of FACT!

This is what Jesus said, did, intended and has accomplished.

 

[PJM]

PROOFS of Peters Primacy from the Bible

***The “power of the keys” has to do with ecclesiastical discipline and administrative authority with regard to the requirements of the faith, as in Isaiah 22:22 (cf. Is 9:6; Job 12:14; Rev 3:7). From this power flows the use of censures, excommunication, absolution, baptismal discipline, the imposition of penances, and legislative powers. In the Old Testament a steward, or prime minister is a man who is “over a house” (Gen 41:40; 43:19; 44:4; 1 Ki 4:6; 16:9; 18:3; 2 Ki 10:5; 15:5; 18:18; Is 22:15,20-21).

1. Mt: 16:19 " whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

“Binding” and “loosing” were technical rabbinical terms, which meant to “forbid” and “permit” with reference to the interpretation of the law, and secondarily to “condemn” or “place under the ban” or “acquit.” Thus, St. Peter and the popes are given the authority to determine the rules for doctrine and life, by virtue of revelation and the Spirit’s leading (Jn 16:13), and to demand obedience from the Church. “Binding and loosing” represent the legislative and judicial powers of the papacy and the bishops (Mt 18:17-18; Jn 20:23). St. Peter, however, is the only apostle who receives these powers by name and in the singular, making him preeminent.

1. Peter’s name occurs first in all lists of apostles (Mt 10:2; Mk 3:16; Lk 6:14; Acts 1:13). Matthew even calls him the “first” (10:2). Judas Iscariot is invariably mentioned last.
2. Peter alone among the apostles receives a new name, “Rock,” solemnly conferred (Jn 1:42: Mt 16:18).
3. Peter is regarded by Jesus as the Chief Shepherd after Himself (Jn 21:15-17), singularly by name, and over the universal Church, even though others have a similar but subordinate role (Acts 20:28; 1 Pet 5:2).
4. Peter alone among the apostles is mentioned by name as having been prayed for by Jesus Christ in order that his “faith may not fail” (Lk 22:32).
5. Peter alone among the apostles is exhorted by Jesus to “strengthen your brethren” (Lk 22:32).
6. Peter first confesses Christ’s divinity (Mt 16:16).
7. Peter is regarded by the Jews (Acts 4:1-13) as the leader and spokesman of Christianity.
8. Peter is specified by an angel as the leader and representative of the apostles (Mk 16:7).
9. Peter leads the apostles in fishing (Jn 21:2-3,11). The “bark” (boat) of Peter has been regarded by Catholics as a figure of the Church, with Peter at the helm.
10. Peter’s words are the first recorded and most important in the upper room before Pentecost (Acts 1:15-22).
11. Peter takes the lead in calling for a replacement for Judas (Acts 1:22).
12. Peter is the first person to speak (and only one recorded) after Pentecost, so he was the first Christian to “preach the gospel” in the Church era (Acts 2:14-36).
13. Peter works the first miracle of the Church Age, healing a lame man (Acts 3:6-12).
14. Peter utters the first anathema (Ananias and Sapphira) emphatically affirmed by God (Acts 5:2-11)!
15. Peter is the first person after Christ to raise the dead (Acts 9:40).
16. Cornelius is told by an angel to seek Peter for instruction in Christianity (Acts 10:1-6).
17. Peter is the first to receive the Gentiles, after a revelation from God (Acts 10:9-48).
18. Peter instructs the other apostles on the catholicity (universality) of the Church (Acts 11:5-17).
19. Peter is the object of the first divine interposition on behalf of an individual in the Church Age (an angel delivers him from prison - Acts 12:1-17).
20. Peter presides over and opens the first Council of Christianity, and lays down principles afterwards accepted by it (Acts 15:7-11).
21. Peter is the first to recognize and refute heresy, in Simon Magus (Acts 8:14-24)
    .
22. Peter’s name is mentioned more often than all the other disciples put together: 191 times (162 as Peter or Simon Peter, 23 as Simon, and 6 as Cephas). John is next in frequency with only 48 appearances, and Peter is present 50% of the time we find John in the Bible! Archbishop Fulton Sheen reckoned that all the other disciples combined were mentioned 130 times. If this is correct, Peter is named a remarkable 60% of the time any disciple is referred to!
23. Peter’s proclamation at Pentecost (Acts 2:14-41) contains a fully authoritative interpretation of Scripture, a doctrinal decision and a disciplinary decree concerning members of the “House of Israel” (2:36) - an example of “binding and loosing.”
24. Peter commanded the first Gentile Christians to be baptized (Acts 10:44-48).
25. Paul went to Jerusalem specifically to see Peter for fifteen days in the beginning of his ministry (Gal 1:18), and was commissioned by Peter, James and John (Gal 2:9) to preach to the Gentiles.

29: 1 Then said Jesus to the crowds and to his disciples, 2 "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat; 3 so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice. (Mt. Chapter 23)

Note: While the bible does not speak specifically of the “ Chair of Peter,” this term gets it’s origin from “the Chair of Moses,” which EVERYONE KNEW WAS THE “SEAT OF RELIGIOUS AUTHORITY.”

1. Peter corrects those who misuse Paul’s writings (2 Pet 3:15-16). ‘In conclusion, it strains credulity to think that God would present St. Peter with such prominence in the Bible, without some meaning and import for later Christian history; in particular, Church government.

The papacy is the most plausible (we believe actual) fulfillment of this directive to ‘Feed my sheep.‘ ”

Truth is THEE Truth friend,

Love and prayers,***

 

[Randy_Carson]

Jesus broke him with the 3rd time and Peter was grieved; brought low by the Lord, now Peter is ready to serve and what a service He did. I hope you see this has nothing to do with Peter except a restoration; nothing more.
If you don’t see it read it over again; this is by God’s design and you must connect all the pieces to see and understand; The meaning of the names, particularly John as in “son of John” was no coincidence. This is the type of thing that makes the word of God so deep and rich. God bless**!**

Refuting the “Reinstatement” Theory

In the closing chapter of the Gospel of John, we find a very poignant moment between Jesus and Simon Peter.
John 21:15-19
15When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon son of John, do you truly love me more than these?” “Yes, Lord,” he said, “you know that I love you.” Jesus said, “Feed my lambs.” 16Again Jesus said, “Simon son of John, do you truly love me?” He answered, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” Jesus said, “Take care of my sheep.” 17 The third time he said to him, “Simon son of John, do you love me?” Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, “Do you love me?” He said, “Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you.” Jesus said, “Feed my sheep. 18 I tell you the truth, when you were younger you dressed yourself and went where you wanted; but when you are old you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go.” 19Jesus said this to indicate the kind of death by which Peter would glorify God. Then he said to him, “Follow me!”
Catholics hold that this passage confirms Peter as shepherd of the one flock of Christ (cf. John 10:11) and head of the universal Church.

In contrast, many non-Catholics believe that because Peter had denied knowing Jesus three times before the cock crowed, this passage simply reveals the re-instatement of Peter to the position of Apostle. However, a closer look at the sequence of events following Jesus’ resurrection reveals that this is simply not the case.

When was Peter commissioned by Jesus, bestowed with the Holy Spirit and given the authority to forgive and retain sins? Was it in John 21? NO! It was days earlier as shown in the previous chapter of John:
John 20:19-23
19On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 20After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord. 21Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”
Here we see Jesus “sending” the Apostles—Peter among them—just as the Father had sent Him. Peter also receives the same commission and the same “breath of God” that the other Apostles received (except Thomas who was absent). All this occurred after Peter’s three denials but before the supposed “reinstatement” in John 21.

Consequently, a few questions naturally come to mind. If Peter had yet to be reinstated by Jesus as is often claimed, why did Peter receive the same commission and the same authority to forgive or retain sins as the other Apostles who had not denied Jesus and theoretically did not need to be reinstated? (I say “theoretically” because ALL of the Apostles save John had abandoned Jesus on the night of His arrest.) If Peter’s denial had somehow cost him his place, how could he be treated the same as those who were still Apostles in good standing?

No, Jesus commissioned Peter along with the other Apostles in John 20 because Peter was still an Apostle at that point–nothing had been lost by his three denials which the Lord had foretold. Later, on the beach, Peter received an additional commission - one that was also foretold in Mt. 16:18-19 - that he was to lead the Church as the earthly Vicar of Christ.

 

[Randy_Carson]

** Peter never considered himself as more than that as shown be his own words; why would you?**

First, would you mind turning off the bolding and all the colors? They make your posts more difficult to read…

Second, what is your basis for stating that Peter did not consider himself to be the leader of the Church?

Thanks.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Neither Peter nor the Pope is the head of the church of God in heaven or on earth; it has been and always will be Jesus Christ; just as the Scripture teaches beyond any shadow of a doubt.

Jesus is the head of the Church which includes those who have already entered heaven and those still here on earth. However, His headship does not preclude there being an earthly head of the Church here on earth.

How you don’t see the Pope as lording of the Catholic Church is beyond my understanding, but you have a different faith than I do IMO.

Actually, I see the Pope as the servant of the Church.

Isaiah 22 is speaking of Christ and nothing to do with Peter; I don’t understand why the your Church teaches that; I have seen over and over again Catholics take the passage out of context and it is very easy to refute.

Uh…no. The passage is not speaking about Christ or Peter. Isaiah 22 refers to the OFFICE of Prime Minister (to use modern language) in the David kingdom. Since Jesus inherited this kingdom, He also maintained the office by giving the keys of His kingdom to His chosen second-in-command, Peter.

By the way, the kings in ancient Israel had queens, but they were not ONE of their wives…the queens were the mothers of the kings. Guess who is Queen of Heaven, Tanner? That’s right…Jesus’ mother, Mary (cf. Rev. 12).

 

[PJM]

=Tanner-Shows Jesus picked Peter to lead the apostles, just as John 20 indicates; it is a far theological stretch and reality stretch to take a leap of faith to see this as succession and the invention of the Pope - get a grip; that interpretation violates all interpretations rules in one big sweep. Everyone spoke on the day of Pentecost unless Peter was simultaneously speaking several languages all at the same time, but that is not what the passage says - get a grip and stop focusing on the messenger and focus on the message, which is the gospel of grace, which is the Person of Christ.

 

[Tanner9188]

Friend you are trying harder to disprove truth than I am in sharing it

Let’s allow Jesus to put it proper context for you.

*Mt. 16: 15 "He [Jesus] said to them, “But who do **you ***say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I tell you, **you are Peter, and on this rock [singular !] I will build my church [also singular !] **, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you [He is speaking to first person singular: Peter !] the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

The term key is used in both the Old and new testament and refers to the kingdom; with one exception. In Revelation 3; “keys” relates to death and hades, which is not the kingdom. Therefore based on the evidence and the audience, the observation of the reality (i.e. the day of Pentecost, when all of the Apostles preached (Peter first)); we can easily conclude the object of the indefinite pronoun “you” is the plural for; which menas He gave each Apostle the “Key”, thus the words “I will give you the keys to the kingdom”, plus we know that all the apostles had the power to loose and bind, along with anyone that can present the message…this is reality. (Matthew 18). In addition there is one heaven in this picture, which would require how many keys?

 

[Tanner9188]

Refuting the “Reinstatement” Theory

In the closing chapter of the Gospel of John, we find a very poignant moment between Jesus and Simon Peter.
John 21:15-19
15When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon son of John, do you truly love me more than these?” “Yes, Lord,” he said, “you know that I love you.” Jesus said, “Feed my lambs.” 16Again Jesus said, “Simon son of John, do you truly love me?” He answered, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” Jesus said, “Take care of my sheep.” 17 The third time he said to him, “Simon son of John, do you love me?” Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, “Do you love me?” He said, “Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you.” Jesus said, “Feed my sheep. 18 I tell you the truth, when you were younger you dressed yourself and went where you wanted; but when you are old you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go.” 19Jesus said this to indicate the kind of death by which Peter would glorify God. Then he said to him, “Follow me!”
Catholics hold that this passage confirms Peter as shepherd of the one flock of Christ (cf. John 10:11) and head of the universal Church.

In contrast, many non-Catholics believe that because Peter had denied knowing Jesus three times before the cock crowed, this passage simply reveals the re-instatement of Peter to the position of Apostle. However, a closer look at the sequence of events following Jesus’ resurrection reveals that this is simply not the case.

When was Peter commissioned by Jesus, bestowed with the Holy Spirit and given the authority to forgive and retain sins? Was it in John 21? NO! It was days earlier as shown in the previous chapter of John:
John 20:19-23
19On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 20After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord. 21Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”
Here we see Jesus “sending” the Apostles—Peter among them—just as the Father had sent Him. Peter also receives the same commission and the same “breath of God” that the other Apostles received (except Thomas who was absent). All this occurred after Peter’s three denials but before the supposed “reinstatement” in John 21.

Consequently, a few questions naturally come to mind. If Peter had yet to be reinstated by Jesus as is often claimed, why did Peter receive the same commission and the same authority to forgive or retain sins as the other Apostles who had not denied Jesus and theoretically did not need to be reinstated? (I say “theoretically” because ALL of the Apostles save John had abandoned Jesus on the night of His arrest.) If Peter’s denial had somehow cost him his place, how could he be treated the same as those who were still Apostles in good standing?

No, Jesus commissioned Peter along with the other Apostles in John 20 because Peter was still an Apostle at that point–nothing had been lost by his three denials which the Lord had foretold. Later, on the beach, Peter received an additional commission - one that was also foretold in Mt. 16:18-19 - that he was to lead the Church as the earthly Vicar of Christ.

Hi Randy, that is great to what Catholics Hold, but more important is what did God say and what is the practical and living reality to what God said?

The authority is in heaven and is in the message, which is the gospel of grace, which means you miss the whole point. A simple illustration of the practical and realistic effect of the message and the key and the loose and bind is not specific to just the apostles but to anyone who can proclaim the same message. Catholics focus so much on the messengers that they miss the message, which is the Person of Christ.

Randy, you give the gospel to an unsaved friend and tell your friend the consequences of rejecting the message. Your friend tells you in a polite manner to shove it; i don’t believe a word you said. Could you then in effect, tell your friend they will remain in their sin unless they repent? Well could you do that or not? Would heaven be in agreement? Why? Because the power is in the message, not the messenger. The message is Christ.

Again I reiterate to anyone; until you focus on the message and not the messenger, you will never know Christ.

I mean, where will you find “Pope”, Roman Catholic", Pontiff", Purgatory, indulgence, perpetual virginity of Mary, rosary, praying to anyone but God the Father, immaculate conception in the Bible? you won’t; so you must put your faith in the hands of men and not in God because the only special revelation is the Bible, the Protestant Bible, for the other added books contain numerous error to which the Church will even attest to a few of them. Nothing from God is with error; part of what makes Him god…right?

 

[Randy_Carson]

Hi Randy, that is great to what Catholics Hold, but more important is what did God say and what is the practical and living reality to what God said?

Tanner-

I have explained to you what the Word of God says and pointed out the logical inconsistencies in the “Restoration Theory” that you and many non-Catholics propogate in an effort to undermine the God-given authority of the Catholic Church and the Pope, in particular. You provided nothing to disprove what I wrote, but instead you have diverted the discussion.

The authority is in heaven and is in the message, which is the gospel of grace, which means you miss the whole point. A simple illustration of the practical and realistic effect of the message and the key and the loose and bind is not specific to just the apostles but to anyone who can proclaim the same message. Catholics focus so much on the messengers that they miss the message, which is the Person of Christ.

Tanner, do you honestly think that Catholics have no idea who Jesus Christ is? It appears to me that you are so focused on disproving Catholicism that you miss what we actually believe and teach about Him. I agree that the authority to bind and loose was given to all of the Apostles - the first leaders of the Church which came to be called the “Catholic Church” no later than the end of the first century, but I reject that this authority has been given equally to all believers. Jesus was speaking to a specific group of men…not to a crowd on a hillside. Your interpretation of 'binding and loosing" is a necessary but false requirement of your theology.

Randy, you give the gospel to an unsaved friend and tell your friend the consequences of rejecting the message. Your friend tells you in a polite manner to shove it; i don’t believe a word you said. Could you then in effect, tell your friend they will remain in their sin unless they repent? Well could you do that or not? Would heaven be in agreement? Why? Because the power is in the message, not the messenger. The message is Christ.

Of course I could. However, it is not a case of EITHER the message OR the messenger…BOTH the message of the Gospel AND the “messenger” (the Church) are important for the believer. How can they believe EXCEPT by hearing?

Romans 10:14
How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?

Jesus proclaimed the Good News and built His Church to continue preaching until the end of the age.

Again I reiterate to anyone; until you focus on the message and not the messenger, you will never know Christ.

We know the message, thank you very much. YOU, however, do not know the Church which Jesus promised to build and maintains to this very day.

I mean, where will you find “Pope”, Roman Catholic", Pontiff", Purgatory, indulgence, perpetual virginity of Mary, rosary, praying to anyone but God the Father, immaculate conception in the Bible? you won’t; so you must put your faith in the hands of men and not in God because the only special revelation is the Bible, the Protestant Bible, for the other added books contain numerous error to which the Church will even attest to a few of them. Nothing from God is with error; part of what makes Him god…right?

The same place you find the word "trinity’, Tanner. Do you really hang your confidence that Catholicism is not the one true Church founded by Jesus on such flimsy reasoning?

Wow.

I would be happy to address each of these misunderstandings in separate threads…handling your shotgun blasts in a single post would be impossible because there is too much to correct.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I mean, where will you find “Pope”, Roman Catholic", Pontiff", Purgatory, indulgence, perpetual virginity of Mary, rosary, praying to anyone but God the Father, immaculate conception in the Bible? you won’t; so you must put your faith in the hands of men and not in God because the only special revelation is the Bible, the Protestant Bible, for the other added books contain numerous error to which the Church will even attest to a few of them. Nothing from God is with error; part of what makes Him god…right?

Answering the Question, “Where is that in the Bible?”

The Evangelical starts with the assumption that scripture existed first and that tradition was slowly and incrementally added to it as time progressed. However, the original deposit of faith was given to the Apostles years before Scripture was ever penned. The Church was founded on this truth from Christ. Some of this deposit was then written in Scripture, some was scrupulously passed from bishop to bishop as oral tradition, and some was later clarified as dogma by the agreement of the bishops in the councils of the Church.

These sources, of course, should be expected not to contradict each other. If the Church teaches something as true, it is justifiable to check that it is not contradicted by Scripture. But if the Church teaches something and the Bible is silent or ambiguous, that does not mean the teaching is any less truly a part of the original deposit of faith given the Apostles. The focus must shift from what is biblical to what is true. The first is always contained in the second, but all of the second is not necessarily contained in the first.

When an Evangelical asks, “Where is that doctrine in the Bible?”, the correct response is “First show me from Scripture why you believe all Christian doctrines must be in the Bible.” It can be frustrating for Evangelicals to confront this issue, but it is important for them to understand the lack of biblical basis for their question. Truth is at issue here.

Adapted from Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic by David B. Currie, pp.61-62.

 

[Tanner9188]

Tanner-

I have explained to you what the Word of God says and pointed out the logical inconsistencies in the “Restoration Theory” that you and many non-Catholics propogate in an effort to undermine the God-given authority of the Catholic Church and the Pope, in particular. You provided nothing to disprove what I wrote, but instead you have diverted the discussion.

I’ll give you what i wrote on the entire restoration reality and fact; not theory…look for the post not addressed to anyone…just the post. thn you can have fun tearing it down if you like. I have diverted nothing; you just don’t like the direction or have no substance to add; you are the diverter.

Tanner, do you honestly think that Catholics have no idea who Jesus Christ is? It appears to me that you are so focused on disproving Catholicism that you miss what we actually believe and teach about Him. I agree that the authority to bind and loose was given to all of the Apostles - the first leaders of the Church which came to be called the “Catholic Church” no later than the end of the first century, but I reject that this authority has been given equally to all believers. Jesus was speaking to a specific group of men…not to a crowd on a hillside. Your interpretation of 'binding and loosing" is a necessary but false requirement of your theology.

Well you must include Matthew 18, don’t overlook the little child that was so close by, before you can make that statement as to who it applies to…I’ll bet his/her parents were right there and I’ll bet there were a lot more that one family there; especially since Jesus was in full preaching mode. Then you must dismiss my simple illustration, which you cannot because it is true. You did add “equally” as though that disqualifies reality.

Of course I could. However, it is not a case of EITHER the message OR the messenger…BOTH the message of the Gospel AND the “messenger” (the Church) are important for the believer. How can they believe EXCEPT by hearing?

That wasn’t the point; you are diverting; yes the messenger is important, but you must first get the message right; how are you going to do that? May I suggest you use the Bible…just a thought.

Romans 10:14
How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?

Hummm. Read the Bible or a commentary from godly people.

Jesus proclaimed the Good News and built His Church to continue preaching until the end of the age.

We know the message, thank you very much. YOU, however, do not know the Church which Jesus promised to build and maintains to this very day.

The same place you find the word "trinity’, Tanner. Do you really hang your confidence that Catholicism is not the one true Church founded by Jesus on such flimsy reasoning?

Wow.

I would be happy to address each of these misunderstandings in separate threads…handling your shotgun blasts in a single post would be impossible because there is too much to correct.
You are going to start correcting the Word of God are you; that will be interesting to see. I’m only restating what God has already said. I have no power; it lies in the message…right?

Perhaps you could start a thread titled “Anything & everything goes”; that would cover all.

At least Trinity is very implicit and almost explicit; which we can’t say about the others.

“baptizing them in the name (SINGULAR) of the 1) Father and of the 2) Son and of the 3) Holy Spirit” Pretty darn implicit and near explicit.

 

[Tanner9188]

Peters Restoration
Jesus calls Simon and immediate changes his name to Cephas

John 1:42 "One of the two who heard John speak and followed Him, was Andrew, Simon Peter’s brother. He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, “We have found the Messiah” (which translated means Christ). He brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him and said, “You are Simon the]son of John you shall be called Cephas” (which is translated Peter).

John = “Jehovah is a gracious giver”

Note: This is the first encounter with Jesus; when Peter is called, if you will, and notice Jesus changes His name immediately. Keep in mind and follow along.

Jesus makes 2 Prophesies
Mark 14:28 "But after I have been raised, I will go ahead of you to Galilee. VERY IMPORTANT STATEMENT] " But Peter said to Him, "{Even} though all may fall away, yet I will not. [ARROGENCE & PRIDE] " And Jesus *said to him, “Truly I say to you, that this very night, before a rooster crows twice, you yourself will deny Me three times.” But {Peter} kept saying insistently, “{Even} if I have to die with You, I will not deny You!” And they all were saying the same thing also.

Note: Keep in mind, very important to remember 2 things as we move forward, Peter was prideful and arrogant and Jesus makes 2 prophesies 1) Peter will deny the Lord Jesus 3 times, after being with Him for 3 years (Judas denied Jesus as well) Jesus said, after I am raised I will go ahead of you to Galilee
Peter denies the Lord 3 Times
Mark 14:72 "Immediately a rooster crowed a second time. And Peter remembered how Jesus had made the remark to him, “Before a rooster crows twice, you will deny Me three times.” And he began to weep One difference between Judas and Peter; Peter was repentant - IMPORTANT to note.

Luke 22:61 "The Lord turned and looked at Peter. And Peter remembered the word of the Lord, how He had told him,“Before a rooster crows today, you will deny Me three times.”

Jesus revels Himself for the 3rd time since the resurrection
John 21:1 After these things Jesus manifested Himself again to the disciples at the Sea of Tiberias, and He manifested {Himself} in this way."

NOTE: Tiberias-a city of Galilee near the Lake of Gennesaret
At this point; Peter is the only one; besides Judas, the son of perdition, to deny Jesus after spending 3 years, and this is the 3rd time He appeared to the disciples, particularly Peter, and Peter denied Him 3 times - do you see a pattern here; this is no coincidence; now watch how the Lord addresses Peter, the same as when He first called Peter; no coincidence “Peter, son of John” - not son of Jonah?? Why?
John = “Jehovah is a gracious giver”

Jesus restores Peter and his faith-Do you love Me? - 3 times
He beginning to restore Peter by starting over again with reference to Peter’s first title “son of John”; Peter needed to be restored, He is no different than any of the other apostles as far as messengers go and he was the most outgoing, a natural leader, but also the weakest spiritually; next to Judas Iscariot.

So when they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, Simon, son of John, do you love Me more than these?" He said to Him, “Yes, Lord; You know that I love You.” He said to him, “Tend My lambs.” He said to him again a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you love Me?” He said to Him, “Yes, Lord; You know that I love You.” He said to him, “Shepherd My sheep.” He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John do you love Me?” Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, “Do you love Me?” And he said to Him, “Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You.” Jesus said to him, “Tend My sheep.”

Summary: 3 times Peter denied Jesus after being with Jesus 3 years. On the 3rd visit before Peter since His resurrection, He asks Peter 3 times "Do you love Me? 3 times, Peter said he loved him. This was the 3rd time and only time He appeared at Galilee; just as the Scripture said.
Jesus broke him with the 3rd time and Peter was grieved; brought low by the Lord, now Peter is ready to serve and what a service He did. I hope you see this has nothing to do with Peter except a restoration; nothing more.

If you don’t see it read it over again; this is by God’s design and you must connect all the pieces to see and understand; The meaning of the names, particularly John as in “son of John” was no coincidence. This is the type of thing that makes the word of God so deep and rich. God bless!

So what has we actually shown; the Lord restored Peter to be the leader of the Apsotles; except for Paul. It takes great faith to leap into the bounds of “apostolic Peterine succession doctrine” in light of all of Scripture. I commend you for your “faith”.

 

[Tanner9188]

Answering the Question, “Where is that in the Bible?”

The Evangelical starts with the assumption that scripture existed first and that tradition was slowly and incrementally added to it as time progressed. However, the original deposit of faith was given to the Apostles years before Scripture was ever penned. The Church was founded on this truth from Christ. Some of this deposit was then written in Scripture, some was scrupulously passed from bishop to bishop as oral tradition, and some was later clarified as dogma by the agreement of the bishops in the councils of the Church.

Does the fallacy escape your notice.
Luke 4 -
And Jesus returned to Galilee in the power of the Spirit, and news about Him spread through all the surrounding district. 15 And He {began} teaching in their synagogues and was praised by all. 16 And He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up; and as was His custom, He entered the synagogue on the Sabbath, and stood up to read. 17 And the book of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. And He opened the book F91 and found the place where it was written, 18 “THE R179 SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME, BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR. HE R181 HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES, AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND, TO R183 SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED, 19 TO PROCLAIM THE FAVORABLE YEAR OF THE LORD.” 20 And He closed the book, gave it back to the attendant and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on Him. 21 And He began to say to them, "Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing."

Now do you see the fallacy?

These sources, of course, should be expected not to contradict each other. If the Church teaches something as true, it is justifiable to check that it is not contradicted by Scripture. But if the Church teaches something and the Bible is silent or ambiguous, that does not mean the teaching is any less truly a part of the original deposit of faith given the Apostles. The focus must shift from what is biblical to what is true. The first is always contained in the second, but all of the second is not necessarily contained in the first.

“But if the Church teaches something and the Bible is silent or ambiguous, that does not mean the teaching is any less truly a part of the original deposit of faith given the Apostles.”

AKA: “it is true because you can’t prove God didn’t say it; and since the “Church” says it is; therefore it is because God didn’t say it wasn’t.”

That would be laughable if the seriousness of salvation wasn’t at stake. God doesn’t mess around with such nonsense; better to to focus on the message; not the messenger(s). This is very problematic, IMO, from observation in this forum.

When an Evangelical asks, “Where is that doctrine in the Bible?”, the correct response is “First show me from Scripture why you believe all Christian doctrines must be in the Bible.” It can be frustrating for Evangelicals to confront this issue, but it is important for them to understand the lack of biblical basis for their question. Truth is at issue here.

Adapted from Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic by David B. Currie, pp.61-62.

2Tim 3:15; but wait “First; where is there another source of divine, “God breathed”, revelation outside of the bible and creation?” It can be frustrating for Catholics to confront this issue, but it is important for them to understand the lack of Biblical basis for adding to what is divinely known to be true. Truth is at issue here.

source: Born again Christianfollowing what we know the apostles taught for sure.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I’ll give you what i wrote on the entire restoration reality and fact; not theory…look for the post not addressed to anyone…just the post. thn you can have fun tearing it down if you like. I have diverted nothing; you just don’t like the direction or have no substance to add; you are the diverter.

Tanner-

This thread is about your position that Jesus merely restored Peter; I laid out the case against your theory and provided sound exegesis of the passage. I remain focused on that topic. How have I diverted this discussion in any way? We’ll let others judge between you and me in this regard.

Well you must include Matthew 18, don’t overlook the little child that was so close by, before you can make that statement as to who it applies to…I’ll bet his/her parents were right there and I’ll bet there were a lot more that one family there; especially since Jesus was in full preaching mode. Then you must dismiss my simple illustration, which you cannot because it is true. You did add “equally” as though that disqualifies reality.

Stay focused, Tanner…what does any of this have to do with Peter’s “restoration” in John 21?

That wasn’t the point; you are diverting; yes the messenger is important, but you must first get the message right; how are you going to do that? May I suggest you use the Bible…just a thought.

How am I going to get the message right? By listening to the Church that Jesus Christ founded as the “pillar and foundation of the truth” (1 Timothy 3:15). How are you going to get it right? By trying to figure it out all by yourself? Oh, that’s right…you claim that the Holy Spirit will lead you into all truth individually, correct? So, you are incapable of teaching error, right?

Hummm. Read the Bible or a commentary from godly people.

Since most of my posts are chock-full of scripture quotations that support my positions, I think there is ample evidence that I do read the Bible. But thanks for those encouraging exhortations…

You are going to start correcting the Word of God are you; that will be interesting to see. I’m only restating what God has already said. I have no power; it lies in the message…right?

Where have I done this? Don’t answer…stay focused…Peter’s restoration was refuted, remember? Deal with that.

Perhaps you could start a thread titled “Anything & everything goes”; that would cover all.

That would be redundant since we already have your threads.

At least Trinity is very implicit and almost explicit; which we can’t say about the others.

“baptizing them in the name (SINGULAR) of the 1) Father and of the 2) Son and of the 3) Holy Spirit” Pretty darn implicit and near explicit.

And I could say similar things about all the things you rattled off. The problem is not that these are not in scripture…the problem is that you do not have eyes to see them because of your Protestant blinders. Oh…am I diverting again?

 

[Randy_Carson]

2Tim 3:15; but wait “First; where is there another source of divine, “God breathed”, revelation outside of the bible and creation?” It can be frustrating for Catholics to confront this issue, but it is important for them to understand the lack of Biblical basis for adding to what is divinely known to be true. Truth is at issue here.

source: Born again Christianfollowing what we know the apostles taught for sure.

Another cut and paste. Lovely. I guess you were scrambling to answer my question, and you think you have come up with the answer.

I am not frustrated at all; in fact, I could argue that the Church itself is “God-breathed”.

John 20:22
And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit.

Jesus “breathed on them”, and Jesus is God. Therefore, the first leaders of the Catholic Church were “God-breathed”. The author of the website you visited has given you a weak argument (a dodge, really). Does that trouble you? It should. The best answer that you can come up with is no answer but an evasion of the question, Tanner. Think deeply about that…sola scriptura was one of the “pillars” of the reformation. You don’t want to discover that it’s all a theological house of cards.

But again, you are attempting to divert the discussion and shift the burden to me. I’m having none of it.

1. Where does the Bible teach that it is the sole rule of faith for the believer?
2. Where does the Bible teach that Jesus merely “restored” Peter instead of commissioning him as the shepherd of the flock?