Petition to withohld Holy Communion from Pro-Aborts

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I’ll still remember the Lord even if the church crumbles… will you?
I won’t remember Him, I will be in His presence, God willing. Because our Lord said that “the gates of Hell will not prevail” against the Church. I take that to mean that the Church that He founded will be with us until He comes again at the end of time.

He *did *establish the priesthood, you know.😉
 
Read the full text of the petition and sign the petition here:

pewsitter.com/petition/
Mmmmm, no, and here’s why. The Church is not a democracy. Laity have many important duites, but supervising the proper reception of the Holy Eucharist isn’t among them. It isn’t our place to tell the bishops their job.

And for the record, it’s much easier to make the abstract statement “pro-abortion politicians shold be denied the Eucharist,” than it is to apply it to a particular case, “Senator X should not receive the Eucharist at tomorrow’s 10 AM Mass at St. Mary’s Church.” We have no idea whether Senator X received the Sacrament of Reconciliation the night before, nor even whether Senator X’s mindset in promoting abortion was sufficiently culpable to constitute a mortal sin in the first place (abortion obviously constitutes a grave matter, but we can’t read the Senator’s mind to verify that the other conditions for mortal sin existed).
 
I wish the petition was to allow the bishops to know the number of orthodox Catholics they shepherd who long for Roman Catholicism, and resist the lazy American Catholic version. All too often, IMHO, the diocesan “intelligentsia” run amok, and after contemplating one another’ s navels, they arrive at their interpretation of what the Church should be. As I’ve previously opined, many of our prelates have become political animals, and the only way to reach them is through political methods…maybe this petition will get their attention.

Personally, I prefer writing a note to my bishop where my annual appeal monies are being redirected, and why. I think if all the orthodox Catholics withheld contributions and let the “progressive” leaders know why, they might revisit their shepherding styles.
 
I won’t remember Him, I will be in His presence, God willing. Because our Lord said that “the gates of Hell will not prevail” against the Church. I take that to mean that the Church that He founded will be with us until He comes again at the end of time.

He *did *establish the priesthood, you know.😉
God Willing, all of us are.

I’m assuming you mean the Catholic Church (because this is a Catholic forum). Point out in Scripture where it says “Catholic Church”? How do you know it’s the Catholic Church? He could be talking about the “Baptist Church”… couldn’t He?

If the Catholic Church crumbles but the Baptist Church is lifted up, will you still remember the Lord? Or will you forsake Him because YOU chose the wrong “church”? (I’m not suggesting that the Catholic Church is the wrong church, I’m just suggesting that the Catholic Church may not be the Church that’s being referred to)

What didn’t he establish?
 
Is it fair to the faithful to let such people continue to do what they do in they’re arrogance?
Define faithful?

Because I’m actually more faithful than you are… it’s true. Because I said so. Therefore, I petition that only people at my level of faith (or higher) should be allowed to have communion.

I’m sorry you didn’t make the cut, but you understand. I know (based on your post above) that if you were in my shoes, you would do the same.
 
What I’m saying as at the end of the day, they have made a choice to be part of the Catholic Church and should accept the doctrine that comes with it.
Agreed.

If anyone believes that they know more than the Church, then they should go start their own. We’ve seen it done again and again and again in the past, present, and it will continue to happen in the future.

So what’s stopping you from starting your own Church? I have a great name “The Non-Pro-Abort Catholic Church”. This will allow you to retain your Catholic heritage and yet clearly distinguish your stance on Pro-Aborts.

If God’s on your side, what are you afraid of?
 
If your brother in Christ sins, we have an obligation to point out the sin to them, not to point to them as sinners, but yes point out the sin.
Agreed. And with compassion.

Disallowing people the opportunity to present themselves in front of the church in an act of remembrance of the Lord Jesus Christ just doesn’t seem very cool.

There are so many people in this world who are not willing to remember the Lord in this way. Be happy for those who are willing.
 
Agreed.

If anyone believes that they know more than the Church, then they should go start their own. We’ve seen it done again and again and again in the past, present, and it will continue to happen in the future.

So what’s stopping you from starting your own Church? I have a great name “The Non-Pro-Abort Catholic Church”. This will allow you to retain your Catholic heritage and yet clearly distinguish your stance on Pro-Aborts.

If God’s on your side, what are you afraid of?
God established one Church. Why start your own… is God’s Church not good enough? God is not “on the side” of those who start churches to teach doctrine other than His. God’s Church teaches correctly against abortion. God’s Catholic Church is incomparable. There is none equal. We all must be one, as Christ and the Father are One. This means One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church with proper doctrine and seven true and valid Sacraments.
 
God Willing, all of us are.

I’m assuming you mean the Catholic Church (because this is a Catholic forum). Point out in Scripture where it says “Catholic Church”? How do you know it’s the Catholic Church? He could be talking about the “Baptist Church”… couldn’t He?

If the Catholic Church crumbles but the Baptist Church is lifted up, will you still remember the Lord? Or will you forsake Him because YOU chose the wrong “church”? (I’m not suggesting that the Catholic Church is the wrong church, I’m just suggesting that the Catholic Church may not be the Church that’s being referred to)

What didn’t he establish?
Oh my goodness, you *did *know you are on the Catholic Answers site, yes? There is plenty of material here to start answering these questions for you if your are truly interested in learning more. But, in a nutshell…as Cardinal John Henry Newman, a famous Anglican convert and Christian apologist, once said: “To be deep in history is to cease being Protestant”.

There is Truth, and it is knowable.
 
Problem is pelosi is doing PUBLIC scandal. This is not private sin between the person and God. This is public scandal. And thus since it is public it must be dealt with in a public way. Its the bishops job to withhold communion from this woman.

Catholics shouldn’t have to watch our Lord being desecrated when they see public pro-abortion polititians recieving communion. Is it fair to the faithful to let such people continue to do what they do in they’re arrogance?
The problem is, Where does this stop? Just with abortion policy? What about Catholic politicians supporting social injustices that contradict Catholic social teaching? Should we not “condemn” that group as well? Surely they are not just oppositional to the Church: they are similarly creating scandal. What about Catholic bankers and investors who committed grand theft and destroyed the lives, yes the lives, of many voiceless, innocent Americans? Should they not have an edict published against them and shamed into not approaching the communion table?

And what about non-politicians? Outside of the universe of contemplative religious, it would be difficult to find someone who has never committed a single serious sin, as an adult, in view of at least one other person. Whenever we do anything publicly that is a cause for disappointment of example, we have created scandal. And by that standard, every single cooperative agent in clergy sexual abuse – from the priests responsible to any authority figures who “bought off” the victims (while often taking no action against the priests), should definitely be excommunicated and refused communion. Such actions, and lack thereof, are classifiable as grave scandal according to Jesus’ words in Mt 18:6. Not just some of them – the ones that have apologized, repented, gone in some cases to prison – but all of them, including those with comfortable clerical positions, etc. (After all, we must be consistent.) Hundreds of such victims live with permanent psychological scars, have never recovered their faith, etc. (Some of these people have posted on CAF.)

While not a politician, I’m sure that I’ve engaged in public actions that have caused now and then some observer to wonder just how “Catholic” I am. Instead of being at that moment a model, rather I have been a disappointment, a cause for perhaps some onlooker who was possibly a convert, to turn away from Catholicism.

I know the response will be that abortion is supposedly a different category of offense and public problem, so the comparisons are not analogous. But regarding that: Sexual abuse of innocent minors by powerful religious authority figures is most definitely a serious, scandalizing offense, resulting often in the separation of the victim from the church’s sources of grace (the sacraments). Talk about “the most innocent.” Indeed they were, once. Since then, the spiritual lives of hundreds of these innocents have been snuffed out in the very place that should have been the safest place in the world for them, their own holy Mother Church, and by the hands, literally, of those entrusted to keep such little ones spiritually alive

I’m not suggesting that in fact such clergy should be excommunicated; I’m suggesting that consistency is imperative if one is going to start down this road.

The church in her wisdom said long ago that the matter of gravity can be named, but not the condition of sin known. This remains classic and conservative Catholic theology. Ultimately, only God reads the heart, and to believe otherwise is to commit the sin of arrogance that Adam and Eve did when they tried to “eat of the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil.”

I can see a point to an umbrella statement applying to all persons in public positions and who craft policy, but keep in mind that any such clerical statement would have to be broad to be credible – given what I opened with. And the only definitive judgment that could be made is that the matter is grave and the need to inform one’s conscience universal. The state of any person’s conscience and the full knowledge/consent aspect of individual sin is something that the Pope himself understands he is not privy to. And he may or may not have even been privy to it in his recent audience with Pelosi. He instructed her. That’s what he knows; that’s what we know. As far as we know, she did not obstinately restate her position on particular life issues to the Pope, or any current intention to promote certain policies.
 
Define faithful?

Because I’m actually more faithful than you are… it’s true. Because I said so. Therefore, I petition that only people at my level of faith (or higher) should be allowed to have communion.

I’m sorry you didn’t make the cut, but you understand. I know (based on your post above) that if you were in my shoes, you would do the same.
In Catholicism “the faithful” is an expression meaning “the laity.” ClementRome’s post wasn’t suggesting a holiness contest.
 
Can someone point to scripture to say that communion MUST be given by a priest? And when I say “scripture”, I mean the Bible… not some “house rules” of a church.

As far as I know, I could have communion every day, any time, anywhere… I do it to remember the Lord Jesus Christ and my bond to Him. Why do you do it?

I’ll still remember the Lord even if the church crumbles… will you?
In Catholicism, the Church is an inextricable part of each individual’s relationship with Jesus. Mass is the only place one can go to receive the Eucharist because Jesus gave only His apostles and their successors the authority to consecrate the bread and wine so that they become Christ’s body and blood — a layperson has no such authority. A bunch of laypeople gathered at a prayer group cannot consecrate bread and wine into the Eucharist. Only the Church can do that. There is no separation between an individual’s relationship with the Church and the individual’s relationship with Christ – the Church is the body of Christ. Therefore, in Catholicism the Church has every right to say who can and cannot receive the Eucharist. That isn’t the issue here. The issue here is whether members of the Catholic faithful (“the faithful” meaning the laity) have any business telling the bishops their job.
 
I won’t sign. The Church is not a democracy. I’ll let the Bishop decide without my suggestion as to whether he wants to excommunicate these people.
 
I won’t sign. The Church is not a democracy. I’ll let the Bishop decide without my suggestion as to whether he wants to excommunicate these people.
GoofyJim:

I understand that the Catholic Church is not a Democracy, but this petition is only asking the Bishops to do what the Vatican has already asked them to do, and what they, in obedience should already be doing:
The Kerry Affair: What Ratzinger wanted from the American Bishops

ROMA - Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, Prefect of the Vatican Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, was clear with Theodore Cardinal McCarrick, Archbishop of Washington and the head of the “domestic policy” commission of the U.S. Catholic bishops’ conference. He was more than clear, he set it down in writing: no Eucharistic Communion for the politicians who systematically campaign for abortion.

Read: no Communion for the Democratic candidate for the White House, the Catholic John F. Kerry.

Ratzinger’s memorandum is presented in its entirety below. It was sent as a confidential letter, during the first half of June, to Cardinal McCarrick and to the president of the bishops’ conference, Wilton Gregory.

chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/7055?eng=y
As you seem to feel we are demanding that the Bishops do something they haven’t been already instructed to do, please read Cardinal Ratzinger’s (now Pope Benedict’s) letter contained within that article. And, Once you’ve finished with that, please read the following on Abortion from the Catechism of the Catholic Church (this also applies to everyone who doesn’t understand the need to refuse our Lord’s Body and Blood to politicians who separate themselves from the Body of Christ by publicly supporting the slaughter of the innocent unborn with their votes and public statements):
Article Five - The Fifth Commandment

2261 Scripture specifies the prohibition contained in the fifth commandment: “Do not slay the innocent and the righteous.” The deliberate murder of an innocent person is gravely contrary to the dignity of the human being, to the golden rule, and to the holiness of the Creator. The law forbidding it is universally valid: it obliges each and everyone, always and everywhere.

2269 The fifth commandment forbids doing anything with the intention of *indirectly *bringing about a person’s death. The moral law prohibits exposing someone to mortal danger without grave reason, as well as refusing assistance to a person in danger.

Abortion
http://javascript<b></b>:openWindow('cr/2270.htm');
****2270
Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception. From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person - among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life.

2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:

2272 Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. “A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae,” “by the very commission of the offense,” and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law. The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy. Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society.

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a5.htm
Please read the entire linked page. Those who publicly promote Abortion publicly separate themselves from the Body of Christ. Per St. Paul the Apostle in 1 Corinthians 11:23ff:
*For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” *
*For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes. *

Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself. That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died. But if we judged ourselves truly, we should not be judged. But when we are judged by the Lord, we are chastened so that we may not be condemned along with the world.

So then, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another – if any one is hungry, let him eat at home – lest you come together to be condemned…

1 Cor 11:23ff RSV

Please also look up and read 1 Corinthians 10 on your own so you can understand just how serious this is…

I hope I’ve made the reason for this petition clear, as well as why I would sign it.

Your Brother and Servant in Christ, Michael
 
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