Petitionary prayers can harm faith

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

I found this comment on a philosophy of religion site that is critical of these prayers. The last paragraph reads like one of St. Thomas Aquinas’s objections in the Summa. If only he were here to answer it

The Church has banned prayers meetings and Bible study so no-one ever gets to hear another human being pray and increase their faith. Even couples have only the foibles of their scarcely catechised spouse limiting their outlook. Some teach their children to pray petitions but to get the best out of the idea they need the (name removed by moderator)ut of a bunch of friends who have faith. I have seen people doing this and they included me and that is why I have the faith I have.

If you have never known any human being who was impacted by God and is expecting and trusting Him to impact them again, you will be bored with the idea.

A** HUGE **amount of the NT and the Psalms is about this.

The anti-prayer movement is very strong and is subtly dressed up in superficially religious-sounding sentiments.

 

[utah_rose]

I have always wondered the same thing. I once tried to ask this questions without being rude and the response I received was basically “this is what I know”. They know where to get money and food and sadly some also know where to get the drugs they are addicted to. One homeless man also told me he couldn’t leave because of his probation requirements. There is also something to be said for the communities they live in. Some have family in the area and hope to reunite with them.

In working with and for the homeless or poor, I have found the biggest initial cause of homelessness is addiction and crime. I find it no coincidence that we also seem to desperately need prison and mental health reform in this country.

You are so right about addiction and mental health. We are currently helping a homeless person. He also has had addiction problems and mental health issues. There are places that will help him but he refuses to go . He won’t seek a job because he thinks he’s worth much more than a minimum wage. It’s very difficult to help people like that and what began as an act of Christian charity has tuned into a nightmare. I’ve been praying for him for months but I guess God has other plans.

 

[Bonnie]

Not petitioning God is called “angelism” and is hugely pernicious.

Not quite. There is a difference between petitioning God for material things and personal outcomes (like relationships) and asking God for spiritual help.

Angelism is thinking one is so good - so angelic - that God’s help is not needed.

When I say that asking God for things is unhealthy, I’m referring to the material. How many times have you heard prayer requests for good grades (without studying), a boyfriend or spouse (even if unsuitable), a better job (without qualifications), a new car (or bicycle - depending on age)? God isn’t a vending machine.

However, if one were to pray for the ability to retain knowledge, and then study, good grades might happen. The same goes for my other examples.

 

[Mummsie]

As another poster said, prayer is our opportunity to draw closer to God. The closer we get to God, the less we need worldly goods / specific results. In the Lords prayer, we first praise God, then we ask that his will be done. Then we ask for our daily bread (the Holy Eucharist and other food for our soul. Next we ask to be forgiven for our sins as we forgive others. I didn’t hear any requests for a new pair of sandals.

Every tragedy that occurs is an opportunity for us to get up and take action (as I think Fred and Gertie said). Faith without action is empty. Even JFK said “Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country”. (not great on quotes) So maybe instead of asking God to do something for us, we should be asking what we can do for him.

Sorry if this came across as a rant

God Bless You.

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

I only meant - that my friend’s son would get a more remunerative job nearer home so that he could support his family better and spend more time with them and he has got it. That the other son’s schedule would change so that granny is less overwhelmed in her mixed health with child care, and this seems to be working out too. That another friend will stay off drink, get a home and be able to stay clear of his old acquaintances and his mother get help for her damaged emotions while being able to carry on working, because there are knock on effects on all around them including me but we don’t knowm howm quick that will happen…

A lot of needs are spiritual and material mixed up and a lot of needs are for us and others at the same time. For instance I asked God (and Theresa Higginson!) for home help and now I have home help (home helps don’t do for single men) and can soon entertain guests as it is improving.

All of this is a long way from Neithan and others saying that petitioning God is bad for us. If He wants to guide us as we grow older He will. The main thing is He is the one to look to.

Even though I am single I go to where I can see and hear others pray. Maybe most people are only every praying in solitary, only. Maybe they don’t mix with any of their fellows that trust God concretely.

God is the one to go to and so many of the other posts said he isn’t. Maybe they don’t experience life as vividly as I and my friends do. I don’t see why they all keep saying all this is so bad.

These things might sound cynical to an outsider but from close up it is an obvious good we are praying for. Most of my acquaintance are sick and handicapped and God is interested whether we believe in asking Him to help the hurly burly and practicalities of life to work better so we can be of more use to ourselves and others, rather than despairing or trying to manipulate authorities. We experience life at a very concrete level and I see it the same way in others.

As long as we don’t fuss about outcomes God wants to know we are concerned. But part of that is to pray for obvious good. Of course we know it might not happen and of course we will be gobsmacked. Why lose faith before we start? It’s not our fault for praying that’s for sure.

Nowhere in Scripture does it say don’t ask God. I am not quarrelling, just getting the issue back to the point. Neithan, what is the impact God has had on your frends?

 

[Neithan]

You’re right Vic Taltrees UK that we should lay our petitions before God and not fuss about the outcome, he has already decided it. A particular problem might be if we brig our petition to a saint to ask them to pray for it to, and then think that somehow it will be granted because of that. That could weaken our faith in the communion of saints.

One thing I have noticed at least in my own experience is that if I pray persistently and fervetly for an increase of faith, either for myself or for a close friend or family member, it os always given. But prayer itself is an expression of faith, so that could have a natural explanation.