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jam070406
Guest
:yawn:
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OneTrueCathApos
Guest
You do not quote from the book of Jesus Christ, the bible, which is a Catholic book. You quote from the KJV known to have many mistakes and blunders in it. And I believe that when Jesus said “Why do you call me Lord”…but you feel to say the rest of the Scripture which says “As does the will of my Father”.
Do you think Christ would leave us alone? Or as orphans? Our church has authority, not like yours with all the confusion and chaos within it. Christ chose Peter to set up his church and there is an unbroken line from him up until now. 266 popes later, unbroken. No one can claim this.
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OneTrueCathApos
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jam, I’m with ya…
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avenger
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Talk about refusing to see the truth…
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avenger
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"46
“Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ but not do what I command?
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15 I will show you what someone is like who comes to me, listens to my words, and acts on them.
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That one is like a person building a house, who dug deeply and laid the foundation on rock; when the flood came, the river burst against that house but could not shake it because it had been well built.
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But the one who listens and does not act is like a person who built a house on the ground without a foundation. When the river burst against it, it collapsed at once and was completely destroyed.”
there, that’s from the NAB, feel better now? The word rock is still in there, so what is your point?
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OneTrueCathApos
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If Protestants should believe that Peter was the first pope, even though it clearly states he was BISHOP OF ROME FOR 25 YEARS, would he be a nitwit? Would he be bishop of Rome for 25 years and not know it? I mean 25 years is a long time. If you ever believe this, then you would have to believe the Catholic church…but that ain’t gonna happen.
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mercygate
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We really don’t need to be testy about this. Petrine primacy is very tidily delineated in the New Testament. Anybody who asks the Boss to guide him will see it. Many people have a HUGE investment in NOT seeing it for a lot of reasons.
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avenger
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Why wasnt he bishop of Jerusalem? That was the cradle of Christianity, so if he was primary, wouldnt he have been bishop of the primary Church at the time?
““In any case, Paul never hints in Romans that he knows that Peter has worked in Rome or founded the Christian church there before his planned visit (cf. 15:20-23). If he refers indirectly to Peter as among the ‘superfine apostles’ who worked in Corinth (2 Cor 11:4-5), he says nothing like that about Rome in his letter. Hence the beginnings of the Roman Christian community remain shrouded in mystery. Compare 1 Thess 3:2-5; 1 Cor 3:5-9; and Col 1:7 and 4:12-13 for more or less clear references to founding apostles of other locales. Hence there is no reason to think that Peter spent any major portion of time in Rome before Paul wrote his letter, or that he was the founder of the Roman Church or the missionary who first brought Christianity to Rome. For it seems highly unlikely that Luke, if he knew that Peter had gone to Rome and evangelized that city, would have omitted all mention of it in Acts,” ibid. 30.”
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avenger
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Where is it "tidily delineated? One verse?
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mercygate
Guest
No. Not just one verse. Peter is named more than all of the rest of the Apostles put together in the New Testament. He is called “First” (protos) in Matthew. Since we know he was not the first to be called, the sense of primacy is indicated here.
The relevant Scriptures are Mt. 16:13-19
Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesare’a Philip’pi, he asked his disciples, “Who do men say that the Son of man is?” And they said, “Some say John the Baptist, others say Eli’jah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
Luke 21:31-32
“Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you [Greek: you all], that he might sift you like wheat, but I have prayed for you [Greek: you singular = Simon] that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren.”
John 21:15-19
When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Feed my lambs.” A second time he said to him, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Tend my sheep.” He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, “Do you love me?” And he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” Jesus said to him, “Feed my sheep. Truly, truly, I say to you, when you were young, you girded yourself and walked where you would; but when you are old, you will stretch out your hands, and another will gird you and carry you where you do not wish to go.” (This he said to show by what death he was to glorify God.) And after this he said to him, “Follow me.”
For the authority to pass the Apostolic commission down to successors:
Acts 1:15-26
In those days Peter stood up among the brethren (the company of persons was in all about a hundred and twenty), and said, “Brethren, the scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke beforehand by the mouth of David, concerning Judas who was guide to those who arrested Jesus. . . . For it is written in the book of Psalms,
Let his habitation become desolate, and let there be no one to live in it'; and His office let another take.’ So one of the men who have accompanied us during all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from the baptism of John until the day when he was taken up from us – one of these men must become with us a witness to his resurrection.” And they put forward two, Joseph called Barsabbas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. And they prayed and said, “Lord, who knowest the hearts of all men, show which one of these two thou hast chosen to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside, to go to his own place.” And they cast lots for them, and the lot fell on Matthias; and **he was enrolled with the eleven apostles. **
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avenger
Guest
You guys always want to evade this…
Why wasnt he bishop of Jerusalem? That was the cradle of Christianity, so if he was primary, wouldnt he have been bishop of the primary Church at the time?
““In any case, Paul never hints in Romans that he knows that Peter has worked in Rome or founded the Christian church there before his planned visit (cf. 15:20-23). If he refers indirectly to Peter as among the ‘superfine apostles’ who worked in Corinth (2 Cor 11:4-5), he says nothing like that about Rome in his letter. Hence the beginnings of the Roman Christian community remain shrouded in mystery. Compare 1 Thess 3:2-5; 1 Cor 3:5-9; and Col 1:7 and 4:12-13 for more or less clear references to founding apostles of other locales. Hence there is no reason to think that Peter spent any major portion of time in Rome before Paul wrote his letter, or that he was the founder of the Roman Church or the missionary who first brought Christianity to Rome. For it seems highly unlikely that Luke, if he knew that Peter had gone to Rome and evangelized that city, would have omitted all mention of it in Acts,” ibid. 30.”
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mercygate
Guest
James, Brother of the Lord was Bishop of Jerusalem. Why? Because he was a kinsman. Tidbit: if Eusebius ’ chronology is correct (and I would not bet the farm on that one), Peter would have been in Rome for 3 years by the time the Council of Jerusalem was called. IOW: he would have been considered important enough to call back for the event.
The primacy of Peter in the NT is attested to positively; the speculations from Paul’s letters are negative. If you ask me, those who deny it have a lot more to deal with than those who accept it. The “evasion” of the challenge from Paul is no evasion at all. The supposed challenge from the absence of a referenc in Paul is an attempt to divert attention from the positive witness. (Not to mention the bones.)
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avenger
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You mean the bones that were attested to according to legend? You might find this interesting:
mtc.org/bones_p.html
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OneTrueCathApos
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I then challenge you to provide genuine historical documents as proof of support for what you say. If you have no genuine proof for what you say, then you have only false charges.
Holy Scripture says this:
"The church which is at Babylon, chosen together with you, greets you, and so does my son Mark." (1Pet 5:13).
Where is this Babylon? By the time the New Testament was written, the city of Babylon, in what is now Iraq, was of almost of no importance. Its days of glory were long past in the Old Testament.
Christians were under constant persecution by both the Jews and the Romans from the very beginning and had to practice the faith underground in the homes of the believers and in the Catacombs of Rome. They used the symbol of the fish to recognize other fellow Christians.
If Peter had said he was writing Rome, then no doubt, the Romans would have begun an intensive search for him.
Holy Scripture tells us that the Roman Emperer Claudius (41-54) ordered all Jews to leave Rome (Acts 18:2). Peter was a Jew, but the church was an underground church hiding at the time.
Eusebius wrote in “The Chronicle” (Ad An Dom 42), that Peter, **after establishing the church in Antioch, went to Rome where he remained Bishop of Rome for 25 years. **
We know from **other early writings **that Peter was crucified upside down in Rome in 67 A.D.
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avenger
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OneTrueCathApos
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This author is a Southern Baptist. Why would I believe him? Nice try though…
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avenger
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basically, you can’t refute it with anything substantive.This author is a Southern Baptist. Why would I believe him? Nice try though…
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OneTrueCathApos
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I just did with post #332! :banghead: :whacky:
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avenger
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in your own mind maybe…anyway… I am off to look at Jupiter and Venus in the evening sky with my scope…looks lovely already tonight. Have a good evening.
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OneTrueCathApos
Guest
Oh, that explains even more about you. :whacky: :whacky:
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