Petrine Papacy and Apostolic Succession

  • Thread starter Thread starter Snow
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Holy Scripture tells us that the Roman Emporer Claudius (41-54) ordered all Jews to leave Rome (Acts 18:2). Peter was a Jew, but the church was an underground church in hiding at the time.
Well, that charge to leave Rome would imply that Peter was in Rome doesn’t it.
Good point about Emperor Claudius. I don’t dispute that Peter was ever in Rome–only that he solely founded the Roman church. Irenaeus names both Peter and Paul as founders, and never says that Peter was the first bishop of Rome.
Eusebius wrote in “The Chronicle” (Ad An Dom 42), that Peter, after establishing the church in Antioch, went to Rome where he remained Bishop of Rome for 25 years.
I understand that this was the Roman tradition by the fourth century, but it clearly “developed” over time. I’ll quote a passage from this online debate between a Mormon and an ex-Mormon Catholic to clarify why I believe this.
While attempting to show that Peter was the first bishop of Rome, Steve really shoots himself in the foot. His star witness is Eusebius (ca. 303 A.D.), who wrote that Peter spent twenty-five years in Rome and was the first bishop of that city. However, Steve also quotes Lactantius (ca. 316 A.D.), who wrote that Peter came to Rome when Nero was already reigning and was executed along with Paul at Nero’s command. The problem is that Nero reigned from 54 to 68 A.D., so if Lactantius was correct, then Peter could not have spent twenty-five years in Rome! It is clear that the traditions about Peter’s stay in Rome had been muddled by the fourth century, but which tradition was older? Well, Tertullian (ca. 200 AD) noted that the Church of Rome in his time claimed Clement had been personally ordained by Peter. "For this is the manner in which the apostolic churches transmit their registers: as the church of Smyrna, which records that Polycarp was placed therein by John; as also the church of Rome, which makes Clement to have been ordained in like manner by Peter."3 Therefore, if Peter was still alive to ordain Clement, who was either the second or third bishop of Rome (after Linus and perhaps Anencletus,) then Peter could not have been the first “bishop” of Rome. Indeed, Tertullian’s testimony is consistent with the Apostolic Constitutions, which claim that Paul ordained the first bishop of Rome - Linus. "Of the church of Rome, Linus the son of Claudia was the first, ordained by Paul; and Clemens, after Linus’ death, the second, ordained by… Peter."4 This also seems consistent with Paul’s letter to the Romans, where Paul wrote, “Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man’s foundation . . . .” (Romans 15:20) If Peter had been in Rome when Paul wrote his letter, would Paul have written this? Similarly, Paul saluted a number of prominent Roman saints at the end of his letter (Romans 16:1-15), but did not mention Peter. The conclusions we must inevitably draw from this evidence are: 1) Peter was not the first “bishop” of Rome, and indeed was not even the first Apostle to preach there.
2) Since the Apostles ordained at least two bishops of Rome while they were still alive and residing in Rome, Apostles must have been much more than glorified bishops.
3) Since the tradition of the Roman Church recorded by Tertullian around the turn of the third century differs markedly from that recorded by Eusebius in the fourth century, the Roman Church must have doctored history in the interim to establish its authority.
The fact is that the “history” of the early Papacy gets a little muddy…
 
Good point about Emperor Claudius. I don’t dispute that Peter was ever in Rome–only that he solely founded the Roman church. Irenaeus names both Peter and Paul as founders, and never says that Peter was the first bishop of Rome.

I understand that this was the Roman tradition by the fourth century, but it clearly “developed” over time. I’ll quote a passage from this online debate between a Mormon and an ex-Mormon Catholic to clarify why I believe this.

The fact is that the “history” of the early Papacy gets a little muddy…
Here is what I’d like to quote about Irenaeus:
"Against Heresies", chapter III
“The very ancient, and universally known church FOUNDED AND ORGANIZED AT ROME BY TWO MOST GLORIOUS APOSTLES, PETER AND PAUL; As also (by pointing out) the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the SUCCESSIONS OF THE BISHOPS”.
“Against Heresies” 3333,1,1, 180 A.D., J208
“In there own dialect, while Peter and Paul were evangelizing at Rome, and laying the FOUNDATIONS OF THE CHURCH”.
 
Here is what I’d like to quote about Irenaeus:
"Against Heresies", chapter III
“The very ancient, and universally known church FOUNDED AND ORGANIZED AT ROME BY TWO MOST GLORIOUS APOSTLES, PETER AND PAUL; As also (by pointing out) the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the SUCCESSIONS OF THE BISHOPS”.
“Against Heresies” 3333,1,1, 180 A.D., J208
“In there own dialect, while Peter and Paul were evangelizing at Rome, and laying the FOUNDATIONS OF THE CHURCH”.
I got that. Where does he say that Peter was the first bishop of Rome? Where does he say that the bishop of Rome was primate of the Church? Obviously, Irenaeus had to claim that the bishops (in general) had inherited apostolic authority, or he would have to admit that the Gnostics were right, or that there was no more apostolic authority.

I do know of one passage where Irenaeus argues that everyone ought to follow the Roman church, but that was part of a larger argument that Christians ought to follow in step with the Churches founded by the Apostles. He used Rome as the prime example because it was founded by BOTH Peter and Paul.

In the second century, there was no papacy to be found.
 
Hi folks.

In a number of the threads I’ve been posting in we have touched on Peter and his role in the foundation or governance of the Church. Whether you believe that Peter was the “rock” upon which the Church was found and the first Pope - Bishop of Rome, I think, is ultimately a matter of faith.

Faith aside, it might be worthwhile to explore the evidence. Some in this forum have claimed that there historical proof that the line of popes - apostolic succession extends right back to Peter. Personally, I don’t think so.

Would anyone care to review the facts or post the evidence?

I’d also be interested in exploring the case for Peter’s primacy in the New Testament.

Note: This is my first thread. Please don’t misunderstand me. Regardless of any doctrinal or historical disagreements I may have with you, I respect and appreciate the Roman Catholic Church. The whole world owes it a debt of gratitude.
That Peter was the Rock on which the Church was founded is a matter of record in Scriptures and also held in Tradition. It’s not simply faith in that being somehow true. It’s faith in Christ and His Word that we believe. However, that Peter is the Rock of the Church is clear in Scripture, Matthew 16, for instance. Only if one distorts the Scriptures, or misinterprets them, do they not understand this.
 
Whether you believe that Peter was the “rock” upon which the Church was found and the first Pope - Bishop of Rome, I think, is ultimately a matter of faith.
It’s not too often that God changes somebody’s name.
I’d be curious to get your take on why Jesus changed Simon’s name to Peter (Cephas/Kephas).

michel
 
“But if there be any (heresies) which are bold enough to plant themselves in the midst Of the apostolic age, that they may thereby seem to have been handed down by the apostles, because they existed in the time of the apostles, we can say: Let them produce the original records of their churches; let them unfold the roll of their bishops, running down in due succession from the beginning in such a manner that [that first bishop of theirs] bishop shall be able to show for his ordainer and predecessor some one of the apostles or of apostolic men,–a man, moreover, who continued steadfast with the apostles. …To this test, therefore will they be submitted for proof by those churches, who, although they derive not their founder from apostles or apostolic men (as being of much later date, for they are in fact being founded daily), yet, since they agree in the same faith, they are accounted as not less apostolic because they are akin in doctrine…Then let all the heresies, when challenged to these two tests by our apostolic church, offer their proof of how they deem themselves to be apostolic. But in truth they neither are so, nor are they able to prove themselves to be what they are not. Nor are they admitted to peaceful relations and communion by such churches as are in any way connected with apostles, inasmuch as they are in no sense themselves apostolic because of their diversity as to the mysteries of the faith.” Tertullian, Prescription against the Heretics, 33 (A.D. 200).

“For what is the bishop but one who beyond all others possesses all power and authority, so far as it is possible for a man to possess it, who according to his ability has been made an imitator of the Christ off God? And what is the presbytery but a sacred assembly, the counselors and assessors of the bishop? And what are the deacons but imitators of the angelic powers, fulfilling a pure and blameless ministry unto him, as…Anencletus and Clement to Peter?” Ignatius, To the Trallians, 7 (A.D. 110).
 
sorry didnt copy and paste the bottom one correctly:

“And do ye also reverence your bishop as Christ Himself, according as the blessed apostles have enjoined you. He that is within the altar is pure, wherefore also he is obedient to the bishop and presbyters: but he that is without is one that does anything apart from the bishop, the presbyters, and the deacons. Such a person is defiled in his conscience, and is worse than an infidel. For what is the bishop but one who beyond all others possesses all power and authority, so far as it is possible for a man to possess it, who according to his ability has been made an imitator of the Christ Of God? And what is the presbytery but a sacred assembly, the counselors and assessors of the bishop? And what are the deacons but imitators of the angelic powers, fulfilling a pure and blameless ministry unto him, as the holy Stephen did to the blessed James, Timothy and Linus to Paul, Anencletus and Clement to Peter? He, therefore, that will not yield obedience to such, must needs be one utterly without God, an impious man who despises Christ, and depreciates His appointments.” Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Trallians, 7 (c. A.D. 110).
 
**Tertullian, “The demurrer against the Heretics”, chapter XXXI,1,
…like the church of the Romans where Clement WAS ORDAINED BY PETER".
Saint Peter of Alexandria “The Canonical Letter”, canon 9, 306 A.D.,: “Peter, the first chosen of the Apostles, having been apprehended often thrown into prison and treated with ignominy, AT LAST WAS CRUCIFIED IN ROME”.

Lactantius, “Of the manner in which the persecutors died”:
This letter is addressed to Donatus. It not only shows that Peter was actually in Rome, but that he did die there also at the hands of Nero.
Chapter 11: “His apostles were at that time eleven in number, to whom were added Matthias, in the room of the traitor Judas, and afterwards Paul. Then they were dispersed throughout all the earth to preach the Gospel, as the Lord their Master had commanded them; and during twenty five years, and until the beginning of the reign of the Emporer Nero, they occupied themselves in LAYING THE FOUNDATIONS OF THE CHURCH IN EVERY PROVINCE AND CITY. And while Nero reigned, THE APOSTLE PETER CAME TO ROME, and, through the power of God committed unto him, wrought certain miracles, and, by turning many to the true religion, built up a faithful and steadfast temple unto the Lord. When Nero heard of those things he tried to destroy the true faith. He is was who first persecuted the servants of God; he crucified Peter, and slew Paul: nor did he escape with impunity; for God looked on the affliction of his people, therefore the tyrant, bereaved of authority, suddenly disappeared, and even the burial place of that noxious beast was nowhere to be seen”. **
 
Tertullian, “The demurrer against the Heretics”, chapter XXXI,1,
…like the church of the Romans where Clement WAS ORDAINED BY PETER".
So? Nobody is disputing that Apostles like Peter may have done the church-planting in Rome. Note that the Apostolic Constitutions report that Paul ordained Linus. If Tertullian thought of Peter as the first bishop of Rome, or even as the founder of the Roman church, why didn’t he mention Peter ordaining Linus? The only reason I can think of is that Peter DIDN’T ordain Linus.
**
Saint Peter of Alexandria “The Canonical Letter”, canon 9, 306 A.D.,: “Peter, the first chosen of the Apostles, having been apprehended often thrown into prison and treated with ignominy, AT LAST WAS CRUCIFIED IN ROME”.
**
In case you haven’t noticed, nobody here is arguing that Peter was never in Rome.
**
Lactantius, “Of the manner in which the persecutors died”:
This letter is addressed to Donatus. It not only shows that Peter was actually in Rome, but that he did die there also at the hands of Nero.
Chapter 11: “His apostles were at that time eleven in number, to whom were added Matthias, in the room of the traitor Judas, and afterwards Paul. Then they were dispersed throughout all the earth to preach the Gospel, as the Lord their Master had commanded them; and during twenty five years, and until the beginning of the reign of the Emporer Nero, they occupied themselves in LAYING THE FOUNDATIONS OF THE CHURCH IN EVERY PROVINCE AND CITY. And while Nero reigned, THE APOSTLE PETER CAME TO ROME, and, through the power of God committed unto him, wrought certain miracles, and, by turning many to the true religion, built up a faithful and steadfast temple unto the Lord. When Nero heard of those things he tried to destroy the true faith. He is was who first persecuted the servants of God; he crucified Peter, and slew Paul: nor did he escape with impunity; for God looked on the affliction of his people, therefore the tyrant, bereaved of authority, suddenly disappeared, and even the burial place of that noxious beast was nowhere to be seen”.
**
This is a really interesting one. Lactantius says that Peter came to Rome during the reign of Nero, and that Nero had Peter crucified. Now, Nero reigned from 54-68 A.D. So much for Eusebius’s story that Peter was in Rome for 25 years.

Do you see the pattern? There were a number of traditions about apostolic succession in the churches, but a lot of them contradict one another. SOMEBODY was making things up!
 
So? Nobody is disputing that Apostles like Peter may have done the church-planting in Rome. Note that the Apostolic Constitutions report that Paul ordained Linus. If Tertullian thought of Peter as the first bishop of Rome, or even as the founder of the Roman church, why didn’t he mention Peter ordaining Linus? The only reason I can think of is that Peter DIDN’T ordain Linus.
**
**
In case you haven’t noticed, nobody here is arguing that Peter was never in Rome.
**

This is a really interesting one. Lactantius says that Peter came to Rome during the reign of Nero, and that Nero had Peter crucified. Now, Nero reigned from 54-68 A.D. So much for Eusebius’s story that Peter was in Rome for 25 years.

Do you see the pattern? There were a number of traditions about apostolic succession in the churches, but a lot of them contradict one another. SOMEBODY was making things up!**

Consider the Archaeological evidence as well. I have presented much authentic documentaton that Peter was in Rome, so let’s look at the physical evidence.
Peter’s tomb has been found. It was found under the altar pf St. Peter’s Basilica in Rome in 1965. the tomb is plainly marked with his name and there are human remains within it. Anyone who visits as I have myself, can see the tomb for himself. It was surreal. Very emotional to see this awesome site. Just kneeling and praying was unbelievable.
Other writings which show Peter was in Rome…
Dionysius of Corinth in his letter to the 12th pope Soter in 170 A.D.
Clement of Corinth in his letter to the Corinthians in 70 A.D.
Peter of Alexandria, in his work called ‘pennance’ in 311
St. Ignatius of Antioch, in his letter to the Romans about 107

I have presented several early church writings in this thread, and there are many others to show that Peter was indeed in Rome, that he and Paul founded the church there.
For those who charge that Peter was never in Rome, I challenge them to provide genuine historical documents as proof of support for their position. If they have no genuine proof of what they charge, then they have only false charges. This goes for others who claim Peter was not the first bishop of Rome.
 
So? Nobody is disputing that Apostles like Peter may have done the church-planting in Rome. Note that the Apostolic Constitutions report that Paul ordained Linus. If Tertullian thought of Peter as the first bishop of Rome, or even as the founder of the Roman church, why didn’t he mention Peter ordaining Linus? The only reason I can think of is that Peter DIDN’T ordain Linus.
**
**
In case you haven’t noticed, nobody here is arguing that Peter was never in Rome.
**

This is a really interesting one. Lactantius says that Peter came to Rome during the reign of Nero, and that Nero had Peter crucified. Now, Nero reigned from 54-68 A.D. So much for Eusebius’s story that Peter was in Rome for 25 years.

Do you see the pattern? There were a number of traditions about apostolic succession in the churches, but a lot of them contradict one another. SOMEBODY was making things up!**

**Peter was crucified in the year 67 A.D. under Nero.
Minus 25 years, that would put him in the year 42 during the reign of Claudius. Claudius only ruled from 41-54 A.D. He died and Nero became Emporer. **Get it?
 
You guys are killing me…

No, just kidding. Thanks for the info so far. I’ll have to spend some time processing
 
Let’s be serious - shall we?

Names written down on a list are hardly evidence of anything more than someone having written down names on a list. I have a A History of the Popes - Vicars of Christ (Coulombe) with a biography of each “Pope” on the list but even a biography is proof of nothing.

What I am asking for is actually historical information, not tradition, that, for example: Linus, Cletus and Evaristus were actually Popes - monoepiscopal bishops of Rome with primacy over all other bishops.

Here’s how I understand it:

It would be inaccurate to factually state that Peter was the 1st Bishop of Rome or even that the first Bishops of Rome had primacy. The Catholic Church, by tradition accords such but the direct evidence for it is lacking. There is a lack of evidence that Peter, once in Rome served as a theological of administrative leader, certainly not was we understand Bishops today.

… however, I am willing to be educated if someone can demonstrated from the evidence, not tradition, that I am mistaken.
Would you consider Britannica Encyclopedia as a neutral source of fact? look up papacy in a Encyclopedian there you will find the list of the recorded historical Popes from Peter to present day Pope. Or would you consider the Jewish community to confirm the founder of the Roman Catholic church is Jesus Christ. How about Ann Landers coloumn, a Jewish secular writer who confrims from her research she concludes Jesus founded the Roman Catholic church.

St. Irenaeus was bishop of Lyons 180-200 A.D. Records the first 12 Popes from St. Peter to his time.

Here’s a Pagan Roman Emperor Decius (249-251 A.D) quoting after he just executed POPE FABIAN in 250 A.D. " I would far rather recieve news of a rival to the throne (meaning his own) than of another bishop of Rome".

Lets see, government rulers knew the Popes since the first century, the Jewish community today has acknowledged that Jesus founded the Roman Catholic church, and history records every Pope since Peter with unbroken succession, see Britannica Encyclopedia or any public library has this information, as well as Catholic cementaries, relics, and historical documentation proving all the Popes since biblical Peter with unbroken succession.

Any reasonable person cannot deny Peter and the succesion of the Popes recorded for 2000 years, by secular means, rulers from antiquity, conquerers (Constantine),who all dealt with the leader of the Christians in all the Popes. Not to mention again the resources so easily available to anyone from their local library.

Can anyone prove the Popes did not exist since Peter? Any time you research history and any government. people or ruler, you will find a Pope or the Catholic church existing for 2000 years.

Peace
 
Here are a few books for reference:

“The Bones of Saint Peter” by John Walsh

“Catholicism and Fundamentalism” by Karl Keating, pg. 204-205

“Radio Replies” by Frs. Rumble and Carty, Vol. 1-370

“Faith of The Early Fathers” by William A. Jurgens
 
I have presented several early church writings in this thread, and there are many others to show that Peter was indeed in Rome, that he and Paul founded the church there.
For those who charge that Peter was never in Rome, I challenge them to provide genuine historical documents as proof of support for their position. If they have no genuine proof of what they charge, then they have only false charges. This goes for others who claim Peter was not the first bishop of Rome.
But nobody on this thread has ever charged that Peter was never in Rome.

And what, exactly, are you asking for when you demand “proof” that Peter was NOT the first bishop of Rome? If we came up with some early second-century Christian document claiming that Peter was NOT the first bishop of Rome, then that would actually help your case! It would show that SOMEBODY was probably claiming that Peter WAS the first bishop of Rome, and the writer of that document disagreed.

But there is no such document, because in the second century, nobody was claiming that Peter was the first bishop of Rome. They claimed that Paul and Peter were the apostles that founded the Church in Rome.
 
**Peter was crucified in the year 67 A.D. under Nero.
Minus 25 years, that would put him in the year 42 during the reign of Claudius. Claudius only ruled from 41-54 A.D. He died and Nero became Emporer. **Get it?
Your math is impeccable. But you quoted Lactantius saying:

“And while Nero reigned, the Apostle Peter came to Rome, and, through the power of God committed unto him, wrought certain miracles, and, by turning many to the true religion, built up a faithful and steadfast temple unto the Lord. When Nero heard of those things he tried to destroy the true faith. He is was who first persecuted the servants of God; he crucified Peter, and slew Paul:”

So Lactantius says that Peter came to Rome during Nero’s reign–not Claudius’.

This contradicts Eusebius’s account, and I conclude that one or the other tradition had been altered.

You can’t just go quoting traditions that contradict each other, and expect us to accept them as historical evidence.
 
Would you consider Britannica Encyclopedia as a neutral source of fact? look up papacy in a Encyclopedian there you will find the list of the recorded historical Popes from Peter to present day Pope. Or would you consider the Jewish community to confirm the founder of the Roman Catholic church is Jesus Christ. How about Ann Landers coloumn, a Jewish secular writer who confrims from her research she concludes Jesus founded the Roman Catholic church.

St. Irenaeus was bishop of Lyons 180-200 A.D. Records the first 12 Popes from St. Peter to his time.

Here’s a Pagan Roman Emperor Decius (249-251 A.D) quoting after he just executed POPE FABIAN in 250 A.D. " I would far rather recieve news of a rival to the throne (meaning his own) than of another bishop of Rome".

Lets see, government rulers knew the Popes since the first century, the Jewish community today has acknowledged that Jesus founded the Roman Catholic church, and history records every Pope since Peter with unbroken succession, see Britannica Encyclopedia or any public library has this information, as well as Catholic cementaries, relics, and historical documentation proving all the Popes since biblical Peter with unbroken succession.

Any reasonable person cannot deny Peter and the succesion of the Popes recorded for 2000 years, by secular means, rulers from antiquity, conquerers (Constantine),who all dealt with the leader of the Christians in all the Popes. Not to mention again the resources so easily available to anyone from their local library.

Can anyone prove the Popes did not exist since Peter? Any time you research history and any government. people or ruler, you will find a Pope or the Catholic church existing for 2000 years.

Peace
Hi Gabriel,

Here’s what I don’t see from the people posting here: any kind of critical analysis of historical sources. You guys cite a bunch of traditions that contradict each other, and it doesn’t seem to register that they are saying different things. You guys cite endless evidence that Peter was in Rome, and take that to mean that Peter was the first bishop of Rome.

Now, consider how a real historian would try to tackle the problem. He would look at these traditions, and how they changed over time. He would look at how early they are. He would look at what the earliest sources DO say that might bear on the problem. Some Catholics have done this. For instance, Jesuit scholar Frances Sullivan said this:

“One conclusion seems obvious: Neither the New Testament nor early Christian history offers support for a notion of apostolic succession as ‘an unbroken line of episcopal ordination from Christ through the apostles down through the centuries to the bishops of today.’ Clearly, such a simplistic approach to the problem will not do. On the other hand, many reputable Catholic scholars, who share the consensus regarding the gradual development of the episcopate in the early church, remain convinced that we do have solid grounds for holding that bishops are the successors of the apostles. Such scholars agree that along with the evidence from the New Testament and early Christian documents, one must invoke a theological argument based on Christian faith to arrive at the conclusion that bishops are the successors of the apostles ‘by divine institution.’ At the same time, they insist that the evidence from the New Testament and early Christian literature is crucial, and must be treated with scholarly integrity. It is counterproductive to put forth arguments that will not stand the test of critical exegesis or historical investigation.” (Francis A. Sullivan, S.J., From Apostles to Bishops: The Development of the Episcopacy in the Early Church, Mahwah, NJ: Newman Press, 2001, 15-16.)

Sullivan is a Catholic priest and a professional historian. His book is meant to SUPPORT the papacy, but without resorting to flaky historical methods. It is published by a respected Catholic press.
 
BDawg, give it up. Either know that Peter was the first pope or not. Your beating a dead horse here. Non-Catholics just don’t want to admit it because then the Apostolic line of succession would start, hence the Catholic church would be the church founded by Christ (in which it is.)
 
Your math is impeccable. But you quoted Lactantius saying:

“And while Nero reigned, the Apostle Peter came to Rome, and, through the power of God committed unto him, wrought certain miracles, and, by turning many to the true religion, built up a faithful and steadfast temple unto the Lord. When Nero heard of those things he tried to destroy the true faith. He is was who first persecuted the servants of God; he crucified Peter, and slew Paul:”

So Lactantius says that Peter came to Rome during Nero’s reign–not Claudius’.

This contradicts Eusebius’s account, and I conclude that one or the other tradition had been altered.

You can’t just go quoting traditions that contradict each other, and expect us to accept them as historical evidence.
Boy, you Mormons certainly have a way of distorting the truth to fit your man made religion.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top