Petros/Petra

[exiled]

It occurred to me that if the Greek necessarily called Peter “petros” in order to maintain the masculine, would that not also be true throughout the Greek Scriptures for God, both the Father and the Son?
Is there some way of checking the Greek to see if Jesus the Rock is petros or petra?

Thanks,

 

[NoelFitz]

**Exiled
**

It occurred to me that if the Greek necessarily called Peter “petros” in order to maintain the masculine, would that not also be true throughout the Greek Scriptures for God, both the Father and the Son?
Is there some way of checking the Greek to see if Jesus the Rock is petros or petra?

Thanks,

The priest in our parish calls St Peter Rocky Johnson.

PETROS is Peter, while PETRA is rock or bedrock (sometimes with a thin layer of soil).

PETRA is used for Christ, the Rock, in 1 Cor 10:4

For they drank from the spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ
The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1989), 1 Co 10:4.

PETROS is used for Peter 156 times in the NT.

I hope this answers your query.

 

[vee8]

Id have to look up the exact date but Fr Mitch Pacwa, a scripture scholar and linguist, answered this exact question recently on EWTNs open line. Im pretty sure its the June 3rd episode though which should be available on ewtns website. Basically he said Jesus wasnt speaking Greek he was speaking Aramaic and there were no petros petra quibbles.

 

[MetalMark]

Of course it was all originally in Aramaic, you have to remember. In Aramaic, Jesus used the word “kepha.”

I have a question, I sometimes see anti-Catholic Christians claim that that “petros” means “small stone” and “petra” means “large stone”, I have not found any citation for this claim, is there any validity to it or is it a linguistic fabrication? I’m pretty sure it’s the latter…

 

[exiled]

Is God the Father in the OT, or Jesus in the NT every called Petros, as Peter is called?

 

[NotWorthy]

Of course it was all originally in Aramaic, you have to remember. In Aramaic, Jesus used the word “kepha.”

I have a question, I sometimes see anti-Catholic Christians claim that that “petros” means “small stone” and “petra” means “large stone”, I have not found any citation for this claim, is there any validity to it or is it a linguistic fabrication? I’m pretty sure it’s the latter…

I think that “lithos” is used for small stone in the New Testament… something like 17 times.

The “petros = small stone” was used around 800 BC and had fallen out of use by the time the Koine Greek of the 1st century came about.

 

[Mintaka]

Jesus isn’t being directly addressed, though. “Yo, Petra of Nazareth!” was not happening.

English is relatively unconcerned with noun cases, because we have sentence position and prepositions to do all the heavy lifting of how the noun connects to the rest of the sentence. But in most other Indo-European languages, the question to ask about a word is not just “what is the word?” but “what case is it?” Even when you weren’t directly dealing with vocative case, there was a lot of difference between a proper name and a word that wasn’t a name.

So as long as Jesus wasn’t being directly addressed by name as them, it didn’t matter what gender the words “vine”, “way”, “truth”, “life”, “sheepgate”, etc… were. It was “I am the vine”, not “Hi! I’m Vine! You guys are Branches, Twigs, and Barky!”

I don’t know whether “Truth” was “Aletheia” in NT Greek, but it would have been pretty weird to have someone come up to Jesus and say, “Hi, Aletheia!” That’s a girl’s name. So if that had happened in the NT, the translator/writer would probably have changed that to “Aletheios” or something, also. (And then some guy in the 20th century would have argued that Aletheia was Jesus’ God nature and Aletheios was Jesus’ human nature that was lesser, and there would be a new heresy…)

 

[NoelFitz]

Of course it was all originally in Aramaic, you have to remember. In Aramaic, Jesus used the word “kepha.”

I have a question, I sometimes see anti-Catholic Christians claim that that “petros” means “small stone” and “petra” means “large stone”, I have not found any citation for this claim, is there any validity to it or is it a linguistic fabrication? I’m pretty sure it’s the latter…

MetalMark

I am afraid I disagree with you. I quote 1 Cor 10:4 where Paul says teh Rock was Christ. Paul wrote originally in Greek.
A quote from the Theologial Dictionary of the NT may be appropriate;

1. The fem. πέτρα is predominantly used in secular Gk. for a large and solid “rock.” It may denote equally well the individual cliff or a stony and rocky mountain chain.…The masc. πέτρος is used more for isolated rocks or small stones, including flints and pebbles for slings.4 Since there is such a great difference in content, the emphasis should be noted, though in practice one cannot differentiate too strictly between πέτρα and πέτρος; they are often used interchangeably.5
2. In the LXX πέτρα bears the following senses: a. “rock,” “cliff” (Ex. 17:6; ψ 80:16); b. place-name or geographical note, Ju. 1:36; 1 Βασ‌. 23:28; 4 Βασ‌. 14:7; c. fig. (Is. 8:14), of an unbending character (Is. 50:7) or the hardened mind (Jer. 5:3); d. occasionally a name for God (2 Βασ‌. 22:2). πέτρος is very seldom used in the LXX.6
   Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (Vols. 5-9 edited by Gerhard Friedrich. Vol. 10 compiled by Ronald Pitkin.; ed. Gerhard Kittel et al.;, electronic ed.; Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1964-c1976), 6:95.

 

[NoelFitz]

Is God the Father in the OT, or Jesus in the NT every called Petros, as Peter is called?

Exiled
I think I have answered your question. In the OT (Septuagint) PETROS is not used for God, but PETRA is. See another post of mine in this topic.

 

[exiled]

Jesus isn’t being directly addressed, though. “Yo, Petra of Nazareth!” was not happening.

English is relatively unconcerned with noun cases, because we have sentence position and prepositions to do all the heavy lifting of how the noun connects to the rest of the sentence. But in most other Indo-European languages, the question to ask about a word is not just “what is the word?” but “what case is it?” Even when you weren’t directly dealing with vocative case, there was a lot of difference between a proper name and a word that wasn’t a name.

So as long as Jesus wasn’t being directly addressed by name as them, it didn’t matter what gender the words “vine”, “way”, “truth”, “life”, “sheepgate”, etc… were. It was “I am the vine”, not “Hi! I’m Vine! You guys are Branches, Twigs, and Barky!”

I don’t know whether “Truth” was “Aletheia” in NT Greek, but it would have been pretty weird to have someone come up to Jesus and say, “Hi, Aletheia!” That’s a girl’s name. So if that had happened in the NT, the translator/writer would probably have changed that to “Aletheios” or something, also. (And then some guy in the 20th century would have argued that Aletheia was Jesus’ God nature and Aletheios was Jesus’ human nature that was lesser, and there would be a new heresy…)

THANK YOU FOR THIS! I figured the direct address would pose a problem, but now you’ve given me examples to use! YAY!!

 

[exiled]

Exiled
I think I have answered your question. In the OT (Septuagint) PETROS is not used for God, but PETRA is. See another post of mine in this topic.

Hi Noel,
Your first post addressed NT, thank for this info about the OT. I think Mintaka has given me the rest of what I needed. (at least for now!) Thanks for your help!

 

[NotWorthy]

Exiled
I think I have answered your question. In the OT (Septuagint) PETROS is not used for God, but PETRA is. See another post of mine in this topic.

But again, this is because of the sentence structure. “The Rock” would necessitate a feminine gender “Petra”. “You are Rock” necessitates a masculine gender “Petros”. Its simply good Greek.

 

[NoelFitz]

But again, this is because of the sentence structure. “The Rock” would necessitate a feminine gender “Petra”. “You are Rock” necessitates a masculine gender “Petros”. Its simply good Greek.

NotWorthy,

When Christ is referred to as Rock, PETRA feminine is used yet XRISTOS is masculine (1 Cor 10:4).

Also in the OT PETRA is used for God, as I have pointed out.

Please see Re: Petros and Petra synonyms in this forum.

 

[PJM]

=exiled;5323864]It occurred to me that if the Greek necessarily called Peter “petros” in order to maintain the masculine, would that not also be true throughout the Greek Scriptures for God, both the Father and the Son?
Is there some way of checking the Greek to see if Jesus the Rock is petros or petra?

Thanks,

***Yes:

“Youngs Litteral translation” is know to be faithful and correct world wide.***

Here it is:
*** 18`And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock,* and upon this rock I will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it;

19and I will give to thee the keys of the reign of the heavens, and whatever thou mayest bind upon the earth shall be having been bound in the heavens, and whatever thou mayest loose upon the earth shall be having been loosed in the heavens.’**

Petra is male gender

Petros is female gender

Chrsit used “Petra”

 

[NoelFitz]

PJM
You wrote:

Petra is male gender

Petros is female gender

Chrsit used “Petra”

Are you sure?

Would you like to reread other posts in this topic.

Especially

The priest in our parish calls St Peter Rocky Johnson.

PETROS is Peter, while PETRA is rock or bedrock (sometimes with a thin layer of soil).

PETRA is used for Christ, the Rock, in 1 Cor 10:4

Quote:
For they drank from the spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ
The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1989), 1 Co 10:4.

and

I quote 1 Cor 10:4 where Paul says the Rock was Christ. Paul wrote originally in Greek.
A quote from the Theological Dictionary of the NT may be appropriate;

Quote:

1. The fem. πέτρα is predominantly used in secular Gk. for a large and solid “rock.” It may denote equally well the individual cliff or a stony and rocky mountain chain.…The masc. πέτρος is used more for isolated rocks or small stones, including flints and pebbles for slings.4 Since there is such a great difference in content, the emphasis should be noted, though in practice one cannot differentiate too strictly between πέτρα and πέτρος; they are often used interchangeably.5
2. In the LXX πέτρα bears the following senses: a. “rock,” “cliff” (Ex. 17:6; ψ 80:16); b. place-name or geographical note, Ju. 1:36; 1 Βασ‌. 23:28; 4 Βασ‌. 14:7; c. fig. (Is. 8:14), of an unbending character (Is. 50:7) or the hardened mind (Jer. 5:3); d. occasionally a name for God (2 Βασ‌. 22:2). πέτρος is very seldom used in the LXX.6
   Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (Vols. 5-9 edited by Gerhard Friedrich. Vol. 10 compiled by Ronald Pitkin.; ed. Gerhard Kittel et al.;, electronic ed.; Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1964-c1976), 6:95.

 

[NotWorthy]

NotWorthy,

When Christ is referred to as Rock, PETRA feminine is used yet XRISTOS is masculine (1 Cor 10:4).

Also in the OT PETRA is used for God, as I have pointed out.

Please see Re: Petros and Petra synonyms in this forum.

“and the rock was the Christ.” Regarding rock, as soon as you made it “The”, you took away its masculine gender and made it feminine, since rock is an inanimate object. but “The Xristos” means “the annointed one”, a person. Hence, Xristos is masculine.

 

[NoelFitz]

“and the rock was the Christ.” Regarding rock, as soon as you made it “The”, you took away its masculine gender and made it feminine, since rock is an inanimate object. but “The Xristos” means “the annointed one”, a person. Hence, Xristos is masculine.

NotWorthy,

with respect I disagree with you. Theh issue is important.

and the rock was Christ 1 Cor 10:4
ἡ πέτρα δὲ ἦν ὁ Χριστός
5986 Χριστός (Christos), οῦ (ou), ὁ (ho): n.pr.masc. ( James Swanson, Dictionary of Biblical Languages With Semantic Domains : Greek (New Testament) (electronic ed.; Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1997), DBLG 5986.)

It is clear that Χριστός is a masculine proper noun. One can see this from the definite articles used.

 

[fdmilkis]

Q: in the verse why is Peter referred to as Petros then as Petra? Shouldn’t it go “thou art Petros and on Petros I will build my Church”?

 

[NotWorthy]

NotWorthy,

with respect I disagree with you. Theh issue is important.

It is clear that Χριστός is a masculine proper noun. One can see this from the definite articles used.

Where are you disagreeing with me? I think we both agree that Xpiotoc is masculine. I’m assuming Xpiotoc is Christos.

 

[NoelFitz]

NotWorthy

Thank you for your post.

You wrote:

Where are you disagreeing with me? I think we both agree that Xpiotoc is masculine. I’m assuming Xpiotoc is Christos.

The disagreement is about Rock essentially.

I wrote

NotWorthy,

When Christ is referred to as Rock, PETRA feminine is used yet XRISTOS is masculine (1 Cor 10:4).

Also in the OT PETRA is used for God, as I have pointed out.

Please see Re: Petros and Petra synonyms in this forum.

This summarizes my position.

You wrote

“and the rock was the Christ.” Regarding rock, as soon as you made it “The”, you took away its masculine gender and made it feminine, since rock is an inanimate object. but “The Xristos” means “the annointed one”, a person. Hence, Xristos is masculine.

In this verse PETRA is used; this is never masculine, but feminine, and remains so with or without the article.

I think it must be made clear that PETROS is masculine and PETRA is feminine always. Thus when Paul; said and the rock was Christ, rock is feminine and Christ is masculine. The definite articles used show this.

and the rock was Christ 1 Cor 10:4
**ἡ **πέτρα δὲ ἦν **ὁ **Χριστός

Sorry for not explaining this clearer.