Pets afterlife?

[Catholicpotato]

If you really believe what you are saying, why on earth or in heaven is it necessary for you to put down people who believe their pets go to heaven and try to hurt them. Surely this issue is not at the heart of Catholicism - I know it is not. This is important to many, you do not believe, so what? Is it think it is right to call others and what they believe wierd.? They do not affect you and you are being very rude to say the least.

You do not have to worry, no animal lover will let their pets near you in heaven or perhaps God will put you in a special heaven.

Are you saying there are leash laws in heaven?
Why on earth or in heaven would you think I am not an animal lover?
Do you really think I should be segregated in heaven because I see the reality of the selfishness of pet lovers on this subject? Now who is being uncharitable.

how about pet snakes? Will mary the “new eve” be ok with that?
I think when I was a small boy I had several frogs that I loved more than anything, will they be there? Some people really like to have pets. seeing as a dog lives about 7 years and some people own several dogs at a time… it sure looks like heaven will be a great big version of the show “hoarders”

Really people can we abandon the egyptian idea of bringing your stuff with you into the afterlife. If God is not enough for you and you need a pet to be happy in an eternal heaven then you should perhaps reconsider the meaning of the 1st and most important comandment.

This is just silly.

Off I go to build my pyramid…

 

[ryanhn]

Are you saying there are leash laws in heaven?
Why on earth or in heaven would you think I am not an animal lover?
Do you really think I should be segregated in heaven because I see the reality of the selfishness of pet lovers on this subject? Now who is being uncharitable.

how about pet snakes? Will mary the “new eve” be ok with that?
I think when I was a small boy I had several frogs that I loved more than anything, will they be there? Some people really like to have pets. seeing as a dog lives about 7 years and some people own several dogs at a time… it sure looks like heaven will be a great big version of the show “hoarders”

Really people can we abandon the egyptian idea of bringing your stuff with you into the afterlife. If God is not enough for you and you need a pet to be happy in an eternal heaven then you should perhaps reconsider the meaning of the 1st and most important comandment.

This is just silly.

Off I go to build my pyramid…

There are those who love their animals as a true extension of their family, and those who love their animals like they love their favorite shirt. They may feel a great affinity for the shirt but there is no true bond there, and when it’s gone while it may be missed it can be easily replaced. Your equating ones desire to be reunited with their beloved animal companion in the afterlife to “bringing your stuff with you” clearly demonstrates which camp you belong to. You say you are an animal lover, but in truth you perceive them as possessions, expendable. They are a love object, not a loved one. How wanting to be reunited with a member of your family in heaven qualifies as selfishness only you can explain. And as far as your reference to the first commandment, I haven’t seen anyone on this forum advocating animal worship or placing their pets on a higher pedestal than their love for God, although personally I would argue that the love we feel for the loved ones in our life is far more tangible than the love we are capable of feeling for an ethereal being no matter how devout. The only one who could love God the way we love family was his own Son, Jesus. The rest of humanity can only aspire to that.

 

[Nelka]

I myself would not worry about numbers and other semantics, I would be deliriously happy that I was in heaven with all my loved ones, human and non human. It is not ours to decide who goes where.

I wasn’t talking about people but animals.

What on earth would my dog do in heaven?

 

[Joan_M]

Jesus came to save only humans as animals do not need to be saved. They have no free will and do not sin. We may have intellectual superiority but we also have arrogance etc. It may be pure sentimentality to you but thank goodness it is not your decision. I thank God for His animals.

I think you might do well to read this -

ewtn.com/expert/expertfaqframe.asp?source=/vexperts/conference.htm

Of course we thank God for the animals - that does not mean that they can go to Heaven. And, it’s not my decision, it was God’s decision.

 

[Alix1912]

I have a very pragmatic outlook on animals. I love my pets, I’ve cried when two of the family horses died, but I’m not overly concerned either way if they go to heaven.

I showed horses and always was baffled by the people that had specialist come in to do accuputure, counseling, and massages on their horses…I figure when I can afford that regularly we’ll worry about the horse getting it. Same thing with salvation…I’m going to worry about getting myself and my family (humans) to heaven first…and since that is a full time job…the animals will have to muddle along without me.

 

[ryanhn]

I think you might do well to read this -

ewtn.com/expert/expertfaqframe.asp?source=/vexperts/conference.htm

Of course we thank God for the animals - that does not mean that they can go to Heaven. And, it’s not my decision, it was God’s decision.

No offense, but that site you referenced is useless for coming up with a definitive answer. Here are excerpts from the section of the site on Pets in Heaven, and everything that’s wrong with them:

“One principle is that all living things have a soul. Here soul is defined as what makes an organic body live. Now when any living thing dies, its soul is separated from its body. In the case of plants and animals the soul goes out of existence. But in the case of man, the soul remains in existence because it is a spiritual or immaterial thing.”

So what is the soul of an animal? Is it a material thing? How is an animal’s soul any less spiritual or immaterial than a human’s, and how is that determination made?

“Consequently, it differs from the souls of animals in two important respects. First, it is the seat of intelligence or reason. For this reason a man is held responsible for his actions in a way that animals are not.”

First of all, animals do have intelligence and they can learn right from wrong. Have you ever house-trained a puppy? What do you think stops them from peeing in the house? They learn from positive and negative reinforcement, “Peeing outside good. Peeing inside bad.” Second, even if you believe animals have no intelligence and absolutely no concept of right and wrong, the fact that they aren’t held responsible for their actions is supposed to doom them to eternal non-existence upon death? For something that wasn’t held responsible, that sure sounds like a punishment to me.

“Secondly, the soul is immortal. A thing which has no physical parts cannot fall apart or be poisoned or be crushed or be put out of existence.”

So, the soul of an animal has physical parts?

The whole section is just a sleuth of conjecture and sweeping generalizations with no basis in fact or logic.

 

[severus68]

I think you might do well to read this -

ewtn.com/expert/expertfaqframe.asp?source=/vexperts/conference.htm

Of course we thank God for the animals - that does not mean that they can go to Heaven. And, it’s not my decision, it was God’s decision.

With respect, I do read and have read that before. Maybe you should go to the Franciscans’ website. It is rather presumptious to speak on God’s behalf. St Thomas Acquinas was a saint, he was not God.

 

[severus68]

I have a very pragmatic outlook on animals. I love my pets, I’ve cried when two of the family horses died, but I’m not overly concerned either way if they go to heaven.

I showed horses and always was baffled by the people that had specialist come in to do accuputure, counseling, and massages on their horses…I figure when I can afford that regularly we’ll worry about the horse getting it. Same thing with salvation…I’m going to worry about getting myself and my family (humans) to heaven first…and since that is a full time job…the animals will have to muddle along without me.

Animals do not need salvation and God takes care of them.

 

[severus68]

I wasn’t talking about people but animals.

What on earth would my dog do in heaven?

I knew you were. Since you appear not to care, I am sure God will find a place for him, perhaps with all the homeless and abused animals. I do not have the answers obviously but I can wonder. There may be a seperate heaven for all the wild animals where people can go to to see the now carnivores lying peacefully next to the herbivores as was told by Isaiah.

 

[Alix1912]

I think one of the things that gets left out of this arguement all the time is that Heaven is Paradise. If we get there we get to live in the presence of God. What could possibly be more amazing than that?

I think it is greatly presumptous of us to assume that we can even comprehend what heaven is like let alone say that it won’t be paradise for us if our dog/cat/hamster/fish isn’t there, or even worse to demand that they be there.

I’m perfectly fine telling a bereaved young child that God will get their pet to heaven if they need it to be there. (I see it as akin to Santa, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy) But as adults we need to recognize that we have NO idea what heaven is like other than we will be happy once we are there. Something tells me that once we get there we will understand everything and sit in God’s presence and the debate about animals having souls or not will be trivial and mute.

 

[Joan_M]

No offense, but that site you referenced is useless for coming up with a definitive answer. Here are excerpts from the section of the site on Pets in Heaven, and everything that’s wrong with them:

“One principle is that all living things have a soul. Here soul is defined as what makes an organic body live. Now when any living thing dies, its soul is separated from its body. In the case of plants and animals the soul goes out of existence. But in the case of man, the soul remains in existence because it is a spiritual or immaterial thing.”

So what is the soul of an animal? Is it a material thing? How is an animal’s soul any less spiritual or immaterial than a human’s, and how is that determination made?

“Consequently, it differs from the souls of animals in two important respects. First, it is the seat of intelligence or reason. For this reason a man is held responsible for his actions in a way that animals are not.”

First of all, animals do have intelligence and they can learn right from wrong. Have you ever house-trained a puppy? What do you think stops them from peeing in the house? They learn from positive and negative reinforcement, “Peeing outside good. Peeing inside bad.” Second, even if you believe animals have no intelligence and absolutely no concept of right and wrong, the fact that they aren’t held responsible for their actions is supposed to doom them to eternal non-existence upon death? For something that wasn’t held responsible, that sure sounds like a punishment to me.

“Secondly, the soul is immortal. A thing which has no physical parts cannot fall apart or be poisoned or be crushed or be put out of existence.”

So, the soul of an animal has physical parts?

The whole section is just a sleuth of conjecture and sweeping generalizations with no basis in fact or logic.

I am really sorry for you thinking that there is no definitive answer to the question of pets being in Heaven and that the "whole section … (has) no basis in fact or logic. It is people who put animals on a par with human beings whose belief has no basis in fact or logic.

The only creation of God’s, other than the angels, that will be in Heaven is human beings. Animals do not have immortal souls.

 

[Nelka]

I knew you were. Since you appear not to care, I am sure God will find a place for him, perhaps with all the homeless and abused animals. I do not have the answers obviously but I can wonder. There may be a seperate heaven for all the wild animals where people can go to to see the now carnivores lying peacefully next to the herbivores as was told by Isaiah.

Animals won’t be in heaven!
Maybe they will be in the new earth?

 

[ryanhn]

I am really sorry for you thinking that there is no definitive answer to the question of pets being in Heaven and that the "whole section … (has) no basis in fact or logic. It is people who put animals on a par with human beings whose belief has no basis in fact or logic.

The only creation of God’s, other than the angels, that will be in Heaven is human beings. Animals do not have immortal souls.

With respect, I say a soul is a soul is a soul. There’s no logical reason to assume that God created a special kind of soul for man, and nothing in the Bible that I’m aware of that supports that concept. It seems unlikely to me that God would leave such an important distinction out of His Word. On the contrary, by our observations of the physical world there is every reason to believe that our dominion over animals here on this earth is a result of our superior brain size, not some kind of super soul. It is our large brains that empower us to ponder the mysteries of the universe and our place in God’s design. That’s the blessing from God that sets us apart from all other animals on this planet. To me God is a god of Justice as much as a god of love. I see no justice in condemning animals to oblivion upon death and cannot fathom a god that would do so when they are innocent and much more deserving of heaven than we’ll ever be. Your referenced source itself says that souls are immortal because nothing non-physical can be destroyed. Unless there’s a really good reason to believe that animal souls are in some way not non-physical, then by that declaration alone there is no logical reason for you and others with your mindset to believe that the souls of animals are any less immortal than the souls of humans. If some saint said they are while on this earth, that’s not sufficient proof as far as I’m concerned.

 

[severus68]

I think one of the things that gets left out of this arguement all the time is that Heaven is Paradise. If we get there we get to live in the presence of God. What could possibly be more amazing than that?

I think it is greatly presumptous of us to assume that we can even comprehend what heaven is like let alone say that it won’t be paradise for us if our dog/cat/hamster/fish isn’t there, or even worse to demand that they be there.

I’m perfectly fine telling a bereaved young child that God will get their pet to heaven if they need it to be there. (I see it as akin to Santa, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy) But as adults we need to recognize that we have NO idea what heaven is like other than we will be happy once we are there. Something tells me that once we get there we will understand everything and sit in God’s presence and the debate about animals having souls or not will be trivial and mute.

Have never said I know what heaven would be like, I have in fact said I do not have the answers. It is not a matter of demand.

You are trivalising the issue, it is not akin to the Tooth Fairy etc.

I go on the basis of 2 points. Animals are God’s creatures too and he loves them too. Why would God not want all His creatures back to him. They are sentient beings unlike the rest of His creation. Christ himself said that God knows what happens and looks over animals too. Christ preached love, why do some Christians think love is only to fellow humans.

There are religious who say no, some say we do not know, some say yes. Something tells me the 'yes" has it.

 

[Alix1912]

Have never said I know what heaven would be like, I have in fact said I do not have the answers. It is not a matter of demand.

You are trivalising the issue, it is not akin to the Tooth Fairy etc.

I go on the basis of 2 points. Animals are God’s creatures too and he loves them too. Why would God not want all His creatures back to him. They are sentient beings unlike the rest of His creation. Christ himself said that God knows what happens and looks over animals too. Christ preached love, why do some Christians think love is only to fellow humans.

There are religious who say no, some say we do not know, some say yes. Something tells me the 'yes" has it.

I guess my point is either way it’s not that huge of a concern for me. Again in heaven we will be in the presence of God and have full understanding of him and his ways…that’s enough for me. If animals are there great…if not, I’ll have the full knowledge of why and it won’t matter. I do not think that is trivializing the situation at all.

 

[Catholicpotato]

Its good to know that for all of eternity I can lay a C note on “seabiscut” to win and “I got the trotts” to show.

 

[severus68]

Its good to know that for all of eternity I can lay a C note on “seabiscut” to win and “I got the trotts” to show.

Never approved of horse racing for the punters and definitely for he horses. Quiet sure God is going to shake his finger at any such thing.

 

[Catholicpotato]

Never approved of horse racing for the punters and definitely for he horses. Quiet sure God is going to shake his finger at any such thing.

I dont know, many a prayer has gone up at the races. Will I be able to thank the cow for the delicious steak I had tonight?

I have known many a horse that loved to run and loved to please their owner. I have had horses that have actually saved my life. It is good to know they can serve us for eternity in that great pasture in the sky.
I wonder if I need to confess that mosquito I killed last summer talk about awkward… Do only cute animals qualify for our pleasure for eternity

 

[severus68]

I dont know, many a prayer has gone up at the races. Will I be able to thank the cow for the delicious steak I had tonight?

I have known many a horse that loved to run and loved to please their owner. I have had horses that have actually saved my life. It is good to know they can serve us for eternity in that great pasture in the sky.
I wonder if I need to confess that mosquito I killed last summer talk about awkward… Do only cute animals qualify for our pleasure for eternity

Horses love to run, that is a given and I have no issues with their use by disabled children etc. Racehorses are bred to run fast. Sometimes they are made to run when too young, some of the tracks are too hard and then you have many broken legs? What happens to racehorses that do not have the wins to be retired for breeding ?
Why must they continue to serve us?

No, never said that. I am sure beef cows including the one from whose body your steak was cut, would prefer to stay away from humans. Not for our pleasure but for God’s pleasure, huge difference,

 

[ryanhn]

I have to say at this point that I haven’t seen one good argument in this thread as to why the repeated assertions that animals do not have immortal souls is likely to be true. Regurgitating the opinions of others proves nothing except that someone else shares your view, or that you’ve adopted their opinion because you trust that they know what they’re talking about. Unless you can cite good reasons as to why their, and consequently your, opinion is likely to be true then that adoption is based solely on blind faith. Blind faith is never a persuasive argument and has little merit or value in my book. Neither is the fact that one of those people was canonized a saint after death convincing. Even if you believe saints are closer to God than the rest of us when in the flesh, that is in no way the same as being infallible and all knowing. Spiritual leaders and religious authorities have been wrong on other issues in the past, so there is no more reason to automatically assume that St. Thomas Aquinas was correct on this one in his earthly writings than there is to believe that the Church leaders of Galileo’s time knew what they were talking about when they asserted that Earth was at the center of the universe and actually tortured Galileo for suggesting otherwise. We all know today that they were mistaken. No, short of a convincing argument as to why he was likely correct, I have no reason to think that my Gunther will be cast into the darkness and obliterated when he passes. As such, I extend an olive branch to the original poster of this thread who hopes to see the animals he or she loved in the afterlife and say I see no good reason to give up that hope. Those who attempt to shatter it by citing the opinions of others without something to back them up are merely being cruel mindless drones in my opinion.